That's cool. I wish to have SL-15 in collection, i already have P205c mk4 cartridge :)
Linear Tracker ...I was wondering
Is there a not too expensive (less than $¹⁰⁰⁰) and good linear tracking tonearm that I could mount on my SL1200MK5?
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Jag, you might wonder how a $1000 low-production tonearm could compete with a $5000 unit from a big manufacturer. The answer is, "off-the-shelf." The Terminator uses clever engineering instead of gobs of custom machining and pretty plating. Everything is made from off-the-shelf industrial material. The most common procedures are drilling and 90 degree straight cuts - cheap. Few curves or slots. No plating, no exotic materials, no sculpted elements. Even the air bearing is improvised from common angle stock. Just utilitarian pieces, mostly made from common aluminum shapes. Good engineering, not eye candy. Obviously, from the comments, not for everyone. |
*L* I have one of those old Rabco ST-4's that I got for nil decades ago. Complete with the 'split' dust cover(s)....;)...and it was New. In the box. I keep it as a reminder of how 'ingenious' lengths one could go to with the concept, as it did work....not very well, but it did....*L* Also have a SL-8 that needs some TLC and some 'SortaOTA' revamping, but it's light-seconds 'better' than the ST-4....easily.. Have a 9/10 Garrard Z-100 that I found in a Goodwill for 20$. *G* A Teac P-J51 unit that's something the spouse can deal with...she's not good with 'cueing', but knows to destat before play. ;)... Not 'elegant', but serviceable for the day to day....another 9/10... Will eventually get around to setting up a more 'phile table/tangent arm/cart, but no rush....*S* |
miyostyn, I was able to get a better overall design in the Pete Riggle Woody arm which is so well thought out it has 3 OTF adjustments, uses NO tools to mount, has wonderful pictures and directions for use and optimization of the various parameters, looks good, and sounds extremely fine. Does it sound better than the Trans-Fi? MAYBE. I had a notion of going to 2 arms on my massive Lenco rebuild with a beautiful 10-layered 100 lb. plinth that has a 24" X 20" top and is 7" H. The Woody is easier to use. The Trans-Fi sounds very fine also and utilizes an aquarium motor that is pretty quiet compared to the Maplenoll's LOUD motor I had to house in a separate closet 50 ft. away from my dedicated room in the basement. There is a lot to admire in the design of the TF arm. It has a very industrial look, which is cool and looks like the actual cutting lathe records are made on. I liked that part. I just liked the Woody better overall when I decided having 2 arms, 2 cartridges, etc. is just too much. Bob |
Terry9, I won't even look at an air bearing arm because of the problem of too much horizontal mass. The horizontal axis has to be driven and the arm has to have a passive horizontal bearing. Then you deal with tonearm effective mass like any other tone arm. Yamaha had the right idea but I think for the best motor isolation and reliability a belt drive would be best. It is however a tricky proposition. I believe a rack and pinion design would do it, the pinion being driven by the belt. Motion is so slow noise should not be a problem. The motor then has t have some type of servo control that predicts where the tonearm has to go. I envision a laser reading the groove just in front of the stylus. A groove is like the grand canyon next to CD pits. Should be easy to do. Unfortunately, small companies lack the technical horsepower to design this. It would be up to one of the big guys like Sony, Yamaha or JVC and they are not interested in such a small market. I encourage every straight line tracker owner to closely observe their cantilever tracking the record. If you see the cantilever drift side to side even just a little you have a problem. |
I wouldn't be too concerned with the horizontal mass. Theoretically - consider the mechanical advantage of an inclined plane - the record groove. That means 100 microns of lateral motion in each revolution, during which the stylus moves about 70 cm, for a mechanical advantage of 0.70/0.00010 = 7000 or so. Experimentally, anything like what you suggest should manifest on one side of the stylus, and quickly too. After nearly 1000 hours, my Koetsu shows very little wear, and what little wear there is, is almost perfectly symmetrical. (From a photomicrograph using a scanning electron microscope.) Kuzma Air Line uses a high pressure air hose attached to a New Way amorphous carbon air bushing (mass about 30 g if I have the model right). That air hose generates a very large force, relative to the stylus in the groove - it supposedly provides the necessary damping. No wonder the 4Point sounds better. |
terry9"Theoretically - consider the mechanical advantage of an inclined plane - the record groove." If you're records are an inclined plane then you need to level you're turntable because you're VTF and AS forces will be all over the place and you will suffer other playback problems if you're out of level with your turntable. |
Terry, you are using the best cartridge for a linear tracker, very low compliance. I be very interested in what your vertical and lateral resonance points are if you have a test record that breaks them up. The HI FI News record does this. Of course your stylus wears symmetrically. The net effect of a perfectly set up linear tracker (level) is no skating. The tonearm just oscillates slightly at very low frequency. The Koetsu is so stiff you might not be able to see it. In a way you are right. Warps occur in the vertical plane so a low horizontal figure is not as significant. The best design of all might just be the Clearaudio as the arm is short and It looks like the resonance frequencies might be closer together. I almost bought one but in viewing the videos I noticed in several cases the cantilever oscillation. The other problem is that the glass tube has to remain perfectly clean but it is open to air. |
The Trans-Fi also has a very short arm wand. I think that you are absolutely correct in your last sentence - that's exactly why I don't want one. Years ago I talked with the late Tom Fletcher of Nottingham Analogue fame, and he warned me against his linear tracker for exactly that reason, "It skips, so you clean the beam. It still skips and you clean it again. Sometimes twice is enough. Sometimes you can't see a thing and it still skips. Sometimes you clean 10 times. But when it doesn't skip, it's all worth it - to the right person." Inclined plane. If the record groove is viewed as a curled inclined plane in which the stylus rides, then it is easy to calculate the forces acting on the stylus. An old mathematical trick: translate the problem you have into a problem you have already solved. |
terry9"If the record groove is viewed as a curled inclined plane in which the stylus rides" A plane is not curled by mathamatical definition it looks like you have founded a whole new branch of math, geometry and physics I am sure a Nobel prize is in store for you congratulations!! |
Terry9 This is all part of a design and execution that separates the men from the boys. .... I would not put up with that design.Like I said earlier in this thread all Linear trackers are very unique in the way they are designed and built. Terry - very surprised you are saying negative things about another tonearm. Fremer reviewed one of the 360 degree air bearing designs, declared it better than his pivot - he could hear it- but said it wasn’t worth the extra effort. At some point we all gravitate towards convenience. And you keep referring to the Transfi as an air bearing, but it is a multi point bearing which also includes mechanical bearing. Better to call it a hybrid. The most linear tonearm in both planes is a full 360 air bearing. |
Sorry to disappoint you, CT. I was reporting a conversation with an expert who realized the limitations of his design, and warned me against it when I asked. A true gentleman, Tom Fletcher. You are of course correct that the Trans-Fi is a hybrid linear tracker. But, I note that the two plane air bushing is usually compromised by a relatively stiff air hose to pressurize that bearing, so I can’t agree that it is the most linear. That hose generates large forces relative to other forces on the stylus. Big problem, or so it seems to me, considering Hooke’s Law (as the air hose acts like a spring); displacement is linear in force, but restoring force is proportional to offset from the centre, so it changes as the air bushing traverses the beam. Assuming that the air hose is centred at 4 cm from the rim of the record, this causes the stylus to press into the left channel, decreasing to 0 force at centring, and increasingly press into the right channel. Trans-Fi finesses this problem by pressurizing the beam on which the saddle rides, and taking care of vertical motion by very low friction pivots. The only external force on the saddle is the tonearm’s cable - still a spring, but a very, very tiny one! The pivots only need to handle a few grams each - I like copper for the Koetsu, nylon for the Miyajima. Agreed that air would be best here too, but it’s not obvious how to do it. What do you think? I have discussed the weaknesses of this design in other postings, but overall I like the compromises which this design represents. My main modification is another support at the end of the beam, which allows me to adjust horizontality to 1 minute of arc, and maintain that setting. |
Terry9 Terry You are referring to the Kuzma - which I believe is the one Fremer was referring to in my previous post- LOL - don't quote me on that someone check back if they care....but I am pretty sure. What do you think ? Well I like pictures, so. Clues to what I think lie in the attached picture. Kuzma Airline versus a Eminent Technology 2.5 Note the huge differences in design especially inside the red circles. https://photos.app.goo.gl/3EtMfiUdgQpAGL1f8 So One needs its air line and wiring for damping (Kuzma), as you reference above - the other does not (ET 2.5) IMO The heart of 360 air bearing lies in its manifold design supporting the air bearing. It's the engine. One in the picture has small, moving manifold - Kuzma The ET 2.5 the opposite. A large stationary manifold. This also results in customers being able to order the tonearm from the factory with a 3 - 19 psi range setting. Their choice. The Kuzma comes in one setting. The bearing differences between the two - night and day. The ET is the smoothest/slipperiest bearing I have encountered. This can be good if one is good with setup, or very bad IMO if one does not know how to set it up. The crazy bearing Bruce designed. will highlight set up errors. So a weakness of the arm is - the audiophile needs to learn the arm first. Read the manual. How many do that? . So what do you think Terry on the two designs ? . Cheers Chris |
CT, you are so right! Perhaps I was thinking Air Tangent, although I'm not certain as I've never seen one. But for some reason I forgot everything I ever knew about the ET design. Thanks for correcting my error - alas, all to common at my age. But, we still have a cantilevered beam. The Trans-Fi is easy to fix with a support on the free end. The ET requires another bushing on the other side, which in turn means a great long massive bearing shaft between the two air bushings. I saw some Chinese audiophiles demo something of the sort, and I was about to build one when I discovered the Trans-Fi. The big advantage of the Trans-Fi is how accurately one can set azimuth - a few minutes of arc - not that I can hear better than about 15 or so. I tried to engineer something as good, but it ended up mighty clunky. So I bought someone else's solution and modified it as above. Maybe we should host a thread on linear trackers and their mods? |
Actually,the best air bearing arm is the Walker. It had the lightest horizontal mass. The air bearing is stationary and large. It uses a lower pressure (less noise). The arm is made out of some type of very light composite. The turntable section is actually the original Air Force, air bearing platter, air bearing suspension etc.
https://walkeraudio.com/proscenium-black-diamond-v/ Unfortunately, Walker also sells a bunch of BS on their web site and I refuse to support that. I find it odd that the press has not compared the Black Diamond to the Air Force 1. |
mijostyn - do you have any idea how many times you have used the word "Horizontal Mass" on this thread alone. "I won't even look at an air bearing arm because of the problem of too much horizontal mass." Then, why are you posting here still ? FYI ..............et al Cartridges mounted on an ET 2 do not see the Horizontal Mass due to the patented I Beam/Counterweight design. A vertical leaf (flat) spring isolates the counterweights from the air bearing spindle. If interested to learn, it makes more sense, I think, for you to do some research, download the manual, and come back with any questions if you have any.. I have used 50 Sonus Blue Gold 50x10-6cm/Dyne on the ET 2 with no problems whatsoever. |
ct0517, raw BS I'm afraid. Just what is that horizontal bean going through the air bearing? A perfect vacuum? It may have less horizontal mass than other linear arms but there is still a marked discrepancy. It is IMHO the best design for an air bearing arm almost identical to the Walker. Wonder why they stopped making them? Anyway I am still of the opinion that the best way to do a linear tracker is by having the horizontal axis servo driven. The physics of the situation does not change just because you do not like it. It should be horizontal effective mass by the way. The horizontal and vertical masses are the same. The effective masses are much different. Terry9, yes, look at a picture of the Walker. Look back behind the cartridge to the intersection of the arm to the horizontal beam, the part that goes through the air bearing. At the intersection there is a clamp that joins the two. If you loosen the nuts you can twist the arm adjusting the azimuth and move it forwards and back adjusting the overhang or lack of overhang as it were. It is $120,000 but the money was not the issue, it is the design. This could be done with a stand alone arm probably for not much more than an Air Line. ET was doing it but stopped. I am not a big Walker fan. You get virtually the same isolation and performance out of an SME 30/12 with the V12 arm as you would with the Walker for less than 1/2 the price with no noisy compressors and air rushing around all over. |
@mijostn1 You really need to get your facts straight particularly if you are going to debate the ET II arm with ct0517. Outside of the desigjner, Bruce Thigpen, Chris is probably one of the most knowledgable people on the planet when it comes to the ET. Chris's experiments with the arm have led to improvements Bruce has actually incorporated into the arm. @jagjag If you want to take a swing at a linear tracker, I'd go for a used ET II; They don't come up real often but I've see a few between $700 and $1000. Setup can be exacting but once dialed in it pretty much stays put. Azimuth adjustment is very simple as is VTA. Bruce still supports the arm so you can get any parts you need to repair or upgrade it. Bruce has great customer support. He responds promptly to your email inquiries. |
@mijostyn As entertaining as I find your posts, for me to continue to share direct experience information on this public chat forum thread, with someone replying to my posts based on theories, and no direct experience. (that’d be u) You need to show me a desire to learn and in this case, the ability to think outside the box. I recommended that you go to the Eminent Technology website, download the ET2 owners manual and breeze through it. That would get you to at least 1st base, and I bet you would learn a lot too. Another option is to go to Florida and see the tonearm in action directly at Bruce’ factory. No, Bruce did not stop making it as you say. He also supplies parts as needed. A tonearm, whose basic design has not changed since the 80’s and is still SOTA. Whats the word again, for audio products that last that long ? ********************************** For the Op and readers of this thread Here is a short video on the Sonus Blue Gold cartridge I referred to earlier - whose compliance is 50 x 10-6cm/Dyne, and is set at 1.24 gms VTF. Many feel only the stiffest of carts can work on a air bearing linear tracker. They haven’t used an ET 2. The ET 2.0 HP in room 2 - Aluminum armwand and single leaf spring counterweight. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-AqjI2B1uY https://photos.app.goo.gl/CQdPMuBW1JFN7Npk9 |
^^^ works without issues whatsoever, on eccentric records as well.myself I would not put my cartridge on a badly made record, for the same reason I would not take my 993 to the Rubicon. The Cartridge is the victim of bad analog setup. If the music means that much to someone fix the record. Harold, I was of course referring to full 360 captured air bearings in the previous post. Cheers |
If it were me looking to get into linear tonearms I would go with a turntable that was designed for that. Sony's direct drive PS-x555 would be in that price range. If able to spring for a tad more... the PS-x800 is tits-on-a-ritz. To put a linear arm on an existing table like the Technics... not sure available linear arms in the price range you're looking at would be worth doing... as far as any improvement on the pivot arm the 1200 came with. |
To put a linear arm on a table it simply needs to... outperform all other comparably priced arms. Assuming of course that sound quality is your goal. I have little reason to believe that is the case. Because, if it were, then people would be talking about sound quality. Which they are not. Instead it is all tech bs. When it comes to tech, here's all you need to know: the one and only advantage is tracking error. So just how big a problem is tracking error? Every pivoted arm ever made is designed to track correctly at only two points. All the rest of the time its off. It just is, they are all like that, and all the rest- everything from arm length to Baerwald or whatever- is noise. Pivoted arms are off, they do have tracking error, and this is a weakness and a fault. Satisfied? Good. Now we got that settled, next question: So how important is this, anyway? Not very. Hardly. If that. Reason I say that is, and hate to repeat myself but, these things track accurately at two points on every record. Now everyone, both sides, got a question: how many people you know have ever said or even heard anyone say, "Man I can hardly wait for that first little bit of the record where it sounds so awesome because of the lack of tracking error?" I'm gonna say zero. For sure I have never heard it. And with all the hoopla about arms, and being a guy who is willing to spend whatever makes sense BUT NOT ONE DIME MORE I would be all over a linear tracker if there was any, and I do mean any, merit to it. I could not care less what or how its made. Only how it sounds. For the money. So I listen and you know what? Cannot for the life of me hear anything that varies anything like tracking error. And I hear all kinds of stuff. Demagnetizer. Anti-static spray. Minute differences between two copies of the same record. Heck last night I stuck a measly little 1" by 1/4" strip of fo.q tape on my arm and was thrilled at the improvement. Thrilled! So if there was anything - ANYTHING!- to be gained with linear tracking I would ditch my Conqueror in a NY minute. But no. It sounds beautiful. All across the record. Side after side. Linear tracking is the playground of technophiles. Not audiophiles. Don't kid yourself. Whatever you are after, it ain't sound quality. |
Millercarbon I believe I have seen posts from you in the past, where you refer to M.Fremer more than a few times to reinforce your position. M.Fremer Does it get more audiophile than that? They are not for everyone and I think you just happen to be one of these "not for everyone" people. Why can't you accept this and move on. I take it from the wording in your post that you have not setup, and/or heard a true linear tracker in your own system. *********************************** Talking Tech. There are folks in this Audio hobby, that enjoy finding out how the components in their chain work. Once the understanding is there, what's the crime in sharing that information with other like minded technical folks? Be it turntables, tonearms, speakers, amps/preamps, etc... MillerCarbon No, I think you are forgetting the bigger advantage, and the real reason IMO for the pinched sound that Fremer describes so eloquently. 1084 results on AudioGon alone Woofer Pumping is a distance 2nd place, at 471 results. |
ct, Michael Fremer is FOS. He uses a SAT arm "the best sounding arm ever made." By the way the largest benefit of a linear tracker is not reduced tracking error. It is no skating force in theory. The major defect is a horizontal resonance that is going to be too low or a vertical one that is too high messing up the bass (most common) No linear tracker except the Walker has survived the test of time. With the exception of the Clearaudio they are all inherently more complicated and prone to failure and deteriorating performance. The Clearaudio is prone to dirt. On the other hand a good pivoted arm is immortal as long as you don't drop it or let your wife use it. Skating is controllable within limits and tracking error can not be heard. I personally have never heard a linear tracker sound better than a pivoted arm. I have never heard one sound as good as a Kuzma 4 Point 14 with a Koetsu in it. |
mijostyn - By the way the largest benefit of a linear tracker is not reduced tracking error. It is no skating force in theory. What do you think I emphasized in the previous post - LOL. try clicking on the link. You know I am on this forum through the winter usually, and then I disappear unless I get a notification. I don’t even recall you on this forum previous winter. |