Koetsu surprise
So when on the eve of our 20th wedding anniversary I received a little square box from her, I had no clue that she would gift me something for the stereo. But there in front of me is a pretty little Koetsu Rosewood Signature Platinum!
Its hard to describe the disbelief. I had never considered a Koetsu. My impression of them was that they were rolled off, romantic, old school cartridges that had been bettered long ago by the likes of Ortofon, Lyra and SoundSmith. Never really read up on their cartridges given that their cheapest models were about as much as I would ever consider spending.
Fast forward one month and I have put about 40 hours on the RSP. From the first needle drop I was very impressed with the midrange presence and the utter ease and extension into the very highest frequencies. The bass did sound a little soft in the first several hours but has tightened up considerably. It sounded its best loaded with 100 Ohms and mounted on my Mørch DP-6 with heavy brass headshell screws from SoundSmith. I currently have it on my Jelco 750D with a Jelco Rosewood headshell.
I don't think any of these arms are the best match but the RSP does sound quite special on all of them. Just purchased a 40 year old Fidelity Research FR-64S. Can't wait to listen to the RSP on this arm. Any recommendations on the FR-64S/RSP combo are welcome.
This whole experience has taught me an interesting lesson about assumptions in our little hobby. You just have to listen before you judge. This is a quantum leap in musical enjoyment that would never have happened if left to my own devices. Anyone else have this type of experience? First time you heard something that changed your mind about what you thought you knew about audio?
I married up!
Those lead wires were easy to install for me. They are using rhodium clips. I simply removed the stock copper lead wires and replaced them with the LW 800 S wires. Not too stiff for me. I need flexible lead wires because I am using the Cartridge Man Isolator dampening interface between the cartridge and the headshell. |
@james1969 It would make sense to match the Ortofon headshell with those leads however I have read that they are difficult to use due to stiffness and have low quality clips. Maybe that is not your experience? @nandric In this hobby, command of your own money requires self-restraint. Thanks for the recommendation. I take it that Mr. Acoustical Systems thought that this setting allows for a reduction in possible resonance from the VTF spring while taking advantage of the dynamic VTF? I give it a whirl. |
I nearly regret the fact that I am bachelor (aka widower). Such is the force of romantic stories (grin). But I then realized that all my expensive stuff I got as ''present'' from myself. That is to say since I got command of my own money . Not to spoil your exicitement here is some positive contribution for you. With the FR-64 S VTF adjuster chose 1g and the added 1g with the counterweight. I got this advice from Dertonarm himself. |
Just an update after dialing in the Koetsu RSP on the FR-64S tonearm. I have tried a couple different headshells including a stock Jelco, a Jelco HS-30 Rosewood (which is heavier and with different headshell leads but still contacts the cartridge with its metal underside), a Yamamoto HS-6S (all titanium), and an Ortofon LH-8000 (all oak headshell with Urishi lacquer). I have on hand a Yamamoto HS-4 (all carbon fiber) that I have yet to mount. My favorite combination is with the ortofon wooden headshell. This seems to bring out the best characteristics of this cartridge which I hear as dynamics, clarity and midrange naturalness. This is such a musically informative cartridge. For anyone else using tonearms with headshells and Koetsu, what have you found to work best? |
The late Peter Aczel (an Objectivist) gave the Koetsu Rosewood his highest rating as the best sounding phono cartridge - even though he was a bit appalled by its price of (then - 1979) $1000. His second choice was the GAS Sleeping Beauty Shibata (this was a Coral 777 in a custom body - I owned the Super Elliptical version - $200) A great sounding cartridge for its time (late 70's). |
Dear @13blm: """
Even if perfect accuracy was achieved it would not automatically ensure listening pleasure ... """ we can't have listening pleasure with true bad recordings even if the room/system is nearest to the recording. The other reason is that each one room/system audiophile has different main target. You posted exactly that: " many of us are saying is that ultimate neutrality or faithfulness to the recording isn't necessarily the goal. """ @lewm : """ Your opinions are "facts". """, totally wrong. My opinions is only that: an opinion but ( again . ) I 'm talking of true facts not opinion and I can see you have a very short memory because you participated more than one time against those facts but you never gave any single fact but opinions. You can re-read my posts about and is there where those facts are. Just an example: everything the same what do you think is nearest to " perfection ": an electronic item with a 60 db signal to noise ratio against other electronic item with 85db on that same figure. The same items where one has a RIAA eq. deviation of 3db against the other with 1db deviation or one with limeted frequency response against the other with wider frequency response? what do you prefer ( everything the same. ) a cartridge with a frequency response inside 0.5db at 10hz to 100khz to other with 3db of deviations. Or a measurable ( same cartridges ) where the first one has higher tracking abilities than the other. All those are facts and I prefer to listen the ones that measures the better because puts me nearest to the recording due that has lower inherent distortions/colorations. That you don't want to change your self even with facts that proves you are wrong this is different. Problem is and I posted several times that everyone is willing to gives opinions and be " severe " critics when can't understand the main subject and can't understand because they don't give his self the opportunity to understand it. I posted what to do ( an experiment or whaever. ) to confirm by it self that those facts will tell everyone how wrong they are but no one is willing to discovery the " true ". So how almost any one of you already knows my facts are wrong if never had a single self experience on what I'm talking about ????? ¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡ and I already had for years the experiences you are living today. At least I know both sides of the today " moon ". It's as some people that do not like to go to the doctor because they are afraid that the doctor can tell they have cancer. Exactly as many of you in the whole audio subject: we are fear of reality and hide behind that: I like it, it does not matters I'm wrong. Regards and enjoy the Music Not Distortions, R. |
I think what many of us are saying is that ultimate neutrality or faithfulness to the recording isn't necessarily the goal. Even if perfect accuracy was achieved it would not automatically ensure listening pleasure, and we all perceive sounds differently anyway. Different brands and technologies exist to cater to personal subjective preferences, which can change day to day! This is why so many analog enthusiasts run multiple carts. A little coolness here, some romanticism there. I like a system that in some ways caters to my whims and values, which change all the time. Appreciating neutrality is different than loving it. Any car can get us from point a to point b however we drive what we like. A formula one car more accurately follows the road than than your typical auto but few of us would find it pleasurable as a daily driver. In short, I think accuracy is fine but not an end in itself. |
Dear @mulveling : """ We all have opinions...""" and agree with you on this regards. Now, for some years now I posted several FACTS not opinions in at least 3 critical audio subjects: digital vs analog, tubes vs SS and damped vs non-damped metal tonearms. Those facts where explained in very long posts not one time but more than twice and I don’t have the time to post it again. Were very precise facts, incontrovertible ones even measurable ones. In all those years some gentlemans that disagree with me on the superior quality performance levels of digital/SS/damped tonearms over tubes/analog/non damped tonearms they never posted any single FACT that can prove the other FACTS were wrong. They gave only opinions, subjective opinions that can’t makes sense against objective facts where common sense is mandatory and not opinions that at the end only means: " I like it ". When I talk about facts on those audio subjects I never speak on what I like or what any one likes, it’s totally irrelevant against what should be through those facts. No, I’m not posting ( in that regards/subjects. ) my opinion about because my opinion is totally irrelevant. Same happens in other forums where I posted out of Agon. But you or any other gentleman can post facts/objective where help all of us to understand why the rigth road ( as should be. ) are: tubes, analog and undamped metal tonearms when is the other way around: SS/DIGITAL/DAMPED TONEARMS. Remember that my MAIN TARGET is to stay nearest to the recording not what I like it as you and several other audiophiles. Now, those 3 important and critical audio subjects must be surrounded by a fine tunned each single link at the room/system chain. Remember too that when our system quality level performance puts us nearest to the recording then in an incontrovertible way we always will loves that kind of sound, we don’t have to worry if " we like it or not " because always we like it if we are ( first than all. ) music lovers and we are not deaf. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
Dear @larryi : Till today there is no perfect tonearms. Always exist trade-offs. I owned some linear tracking tonearms as : Denessen, Southern and ET. I hears many more as Foprsell, Kuzma, the one in Walker Procenium, the one in Rockport and the Transfi, all these not in my system. I decided to use only pivot tonearm designs because ( even inside its trade-offs. ) makes something no LT design does it and this characteristic is a way better deep bass quality level performance. LT just can't give us the weigth and tigth deep bass as a pivoted ones and maybe can be because are " grounded " mechanically and not float in the air. I can't say why. Maybe many audiophiles do not cares about deep bass quality levels but it's here where MUSIC starts in a home audio system and the frequency range more critic an important in a room/audio system quality levels. We have to remember here that that bass range gebnerates harmonics and distortions too that affects in sevre way the other frequency range quality levels. If we have not a real/true full range response in the audio system we just can't enjoy MUSIC and the worst and harder frequency range to handle is precisely the bass range, it's what ( everything the same. ) determines the quality level performance on any room/audio system. It's easy to check if in our full range system the bass range is rigth or not really rigth and to test this we only need a decent digital source playing same tracks than the analog rig and compare in between and you will know with out doubts.. In any tonearm/cartridge/TT, pivoted or not, ACCURACY in the whole set up is the real name of the game. A good pivot tonearm design with accurate overall set up has nothing to " envy " to any of those LT designs I named. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC Not Distortions, R. |
Quite correct, Larry. I later realized that the effect might be caused by torque. When I get my precision torque driver I'll sort it out. My posting was ambiguous. I was not adjusting overhang, but offset angle - which, of course, should be 0 for a linear tracker. Overhang is not really the issue with a linear tracker; one is after tangentiality, which can be set very precisely, even for a cartridge like the KRSP, with its invisible stylus. |
I wondered about whether something else, like the torque on the mounting screws, had also changed. I have my doubts about whether a small improvement in overhang would result in a big change in sound. Also a change in overhang would make the sound better for certain parts of the record and worse for others rather than provide a uniformly superior sound. As for the advantages of linear tracking arms, there are MANY theoretical pros and cons. Some tone arm makers think that most linear tracking arms are actually worse at maintaining perfect tangency. That is because as the stylus/cantilever move inward the arm resists moving more than would a pivoted arm. The arm resists moving laterally more than conventional arms because they tend to have high mass in that plane of movement and because of the loss of the mechanical advantage of a pivot (it is easy to move something around a pivot, much harder to move the entire arm laterally along the air bearing tube, even if friction is minimal). This resistance means that the cantilever is more inclined to being forced out of position (bending inward) with linear arms. Obviously, the short arms on linear trackers can be made very rigid and less prone to ringing, but, there are arguments as to whether the lack of a conventional pivot prevents vibrational energy from being drained away and dissipated properly. I don't know if these theoretical claims are true or not; I've heard nice reproduction from linear arms as well as conventional arms and cannot attribute differences to particular design elements. To me, having noticed how small VTA changes affect sound, I am also concerned that the short arms on most linear trackers would result in larger shifts in VTA for different record thickness than is the case with a longer arm. There are pivoting arms that take advantage of the "Thales" circle geometry to maintain tangency (also no skating), but, these are expensive, complex, and most require additional arm pivots and parts (added friction). Some examples are the Thales arm, Schoeder LT, Funk Firm AK-1, and the Reed 5P (the Reed avoids extra pivots that the stylus/cantilever must move by using a motor controlled by a light sensor to pivot the tonearm base to maintain the tangential geometry). |
@karl_desch @mulveling @larryi Gentlemen, I want to share a new discovery (to me) with you. After posting, I was considering the advantages of the linear tracker, when I wondered just how accurately my cartridge was placed on the arm wand, so I measured it: within 0.004 inches, or about 15 minutes of arc. Being anal, I naturally tried to make it better, even though I expected the manufacturing tolerances on the KRSP to swamp such a small amount. But I persevered, and got it to about 0.0005 inches, about 2 minutes of arc. Surprise. More clarity, tighter and stronger bass, more sweetness, less distortion. Not subtle. Not just me - the lady was suitably impressed and said much the same. I leave it to you to decide whether or not an anally set up linear tracker is likely to have any competition from anything, regardless of price. |
Dear friends: It's really " curious " that every time I mention that tubes or undamped metal tonearms design can't honor MUSIC and puts every one far away from what's in the LP recording " all " gentlemans ( like in this thread. ) post and posted that I'm " wrong " but , till today , no single of " you " audiophiles posted incontrovertible facts as: tubes has: wider frequency response range than today SS electronics and wider dynamic range and lower noise levels and lower overall colorations or lower distortions levels than SS. No one posted incontrovertible facts why metal non-damped tonearms are better than a well damped design. Or facts that can prove that analog is truer to the recording than today digital experience. All make and post that I'm " crazy " or something like that or like @terry9 post: """ even if that remark were incontrovertibly true, which it certainly is not. """ but do not tell us why " is not ".Don't you think that in this century year 2017 is not a good time to be liberated by your self of those heavy metal chains that hold you and makes you can't move it? What or whom really stopped/impede that you do it to really start to enjoy what is in the recording? for the first time in your audio life ! Regards and enjoy the Music Not Distortions, R. |
@13blm -- Raul has a full description of his system and preferences here ... nothing imaginary about it https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/3080 |
Dear @13blm: You can read about through my Agon virtual system.. Btw, of course that when I'm talking of non-damped tonearm design I'm refering to those all metal undamped designs where the FR are the worst of the worst. You can add to the FR its intrinsic resonances that develop the FR tonearm balanced VTF mechanism design, terrible. There are other vintage balanced design tonearms with different mechanism that does not develops resonances " per se ", two examples are the Lustre GST 801 and the Micro Seiki MAX 237. IMHO when FR designes those 66/64 models they had no single idea of the cartridge needs and LP needs. Remember, that I'm not taling here of what we like it that's irrelevant on the " truer to the recording " subject. What any one likes is another matters and does not changes what I'm talking about for years! Regards and enjoy the Music Not Distortions, R. |
Dear @13blm: """
what equipment have you found meets your criteria? """ Truer to the recording is a concept. A concept based to reduce and achieve/approach MINIMUM distortions at each single linl in the whole audio system chain. Everything the same a non-damped tonearm generates higher distortions than a well damped design. It's in the tonearm/ cartridge where we need to damp every kind of distortions/resonances that get dirty the musical recorded information. That " dirty " is something that is not in the recording and just add very very high distortions/colorations. Due to severe tube electronics technology limitations it happens the same. But we have to take care about at each single link in the audio system chain, at least if we want to stay nearer to that: truer to the recording. Btw, @karl_desch when your system is truer to the recording ALWAYS will enjoy the MUSIC as ever before in your audio life. No doubt about. Regards and enjoy the Music Not Distortions, R. |
Dear @terry9 : """ Yes you like what you listen but is far away from what’s in the recording ... """ """ You like ( as many other gentlemans. ) what for many years you learnend through the corrupted AHEE ( where we all belongs. ) that still today push you and to all audiophiles to live listening as if you were living and listening a 40’s audio system. You are in that jail and the AHEE has not the key to let you out, only you can do it changing your targets. """ Please accept my sincere apologies to you when I posted both statements addressed to you. Was a terrible mistake because those statements were not addressed to you. I’m sorry I don’t know what I was thinking in that moment. My " stupid " fault/mistake. What was addressed to you was: """ no one posted true facts that proved that what I posted is totally wrong: that tubes and non-damped tonearms can’t honor what’s in the recording. If you have those facts please share with us, every single day is a leraning day and I’m always willing to. " Non-damped tonearms means higher resonances against well damped tonearms and tube electronics has severe limitations because that technology is truly limited to use with top quality audio targets as : truer to the recording. Tha’s all. You posted it’s not true and that’s why I ask you for facts that could tell us that a non-damped tonearm ( vintage or today comercial designs. ) works better than a well damped design to approach in nearer way: truer to the recording. Again accept my apologies and I hope you can give those facts. ( everything the same. ) Regards and enjoy the Music Not Distortions, R. |
I bought a Koetsu Urishi Black a few years ago. I mounted it on a Pioneer PL-71, I had bought, back in ’74. At first, it sound very tinny and I was very disappointed in it’s performance. I spoke with Koetsu and they informed me my tonearm, may not have enough mass. I experimented and finally got excellent results, by adding a very thin strip of Dynamat to the full length of the tonearm. Man-the difference was like day and night. I had only been back into vinyl a short time and was still "Living In The Past." The Dynamat, not only gave me the mass I needed, but also acts as a vibration absorber too. I find the Urishi Black, plays my older LPs better, such as Sgt Pepper’s Lonely... The White Album and LPs like that. Anyway, to get the sound you’re looking for, try, as stated in the responses above, to increase the tonearm’s mass. It really does not have to be complicated, as I found out using the dynamat. I know-sounds ghetto, but it worked! |
Thanks Bruce looking forward to listening with you! As far as distortions...Since there is no way of knowing what is actually on the recording, I will go with what I hear as more realistic, more information about the tone and timbre of an instrument. This is informed by my years as a musician before I went to medical school and my continued enjoyment of live music. The KRSP sounds a lot like real music in my system. This was unexpected given what I assumed about Koetsu being romantic. Not a matter of true and false or enjoyable distortions or not. This is simply opinion based on listening. Enjoy the music not the recording. |
Dear @terry9 : """
even if that remark were incontrovertibly true, which it certainly is not, it was churlish . """ Please don't feel ofended because a true and real fact can't ofend any one by the contrary: a lie is an ofense always. You said that that fact " certainly it's not " but you give no single facts as foundation for your statement. In the other side in many many threads I posted several facts ( I'm sure you read it at least one of my posts about. ), that no one and I'm meaning it repeat no one posted true facts that proved that what I posted is totally wrong, why tubes and non-damped tonearms can't honor what's in the recording. If nyou have those facts please share with us, every single day is a leraning day and I'm always willing to. As I said every one has his own audio system reproduction quality level targets and mine is to mimic what's in the recording that you can't have it with your system. Yes you like what you listen but is far away from what's in the recording and the same for all users of non-damped tonearms. We can't close the sun with a finger. You like ( as many other gentlemans. ) what for many years you learnend through the corrupted AHEE ( where we all belongs. ) that still today push you and to all audiophiles to live listening as if you were living and listening a 40's audio system. You are in that jail and the AHEE has not the key to let you out, only you can do it changing your targets. Btw, the KRSP is not a low compliance cartridge but belong to the medium range compliance. @karl_desch , everything the same what defines that a cartridge can pick up more information ( tha's what you think against the A90. ), only one characteristic: cartridge tracking abilities and in this regards the A90 is superior to the KRSP. Sometimes that " added information " , you posted , is only added distortions and not necessary true recorded information. A lower tracking level means higher distortions and less recorded information. That we like it the sound with added distortions is a totally different issue. As I posted, everything depends on each one of us targets. Regards and enjoy the Music Not Distortions, R. |
FWIW, I find that the Urushi works very well with a moderate, rather than light tonearm (i.e. 10 g +). I use an SME V and am pleased with the results. I have heard that the cartridge works even better with higher mass arms, but I haven't got around to sticking some blutack on my arm and rebalancing to see. I should think than an FR-64S or FR-66S would be a good match. |
What a lovely lady you have there Karl and a fantastic cartridge. Unashamedly have been a Koetsu fan for 37 years and have had the opportunity to listen to many cartridges in my system along with a few of the Koetsu models since the original MC1 wood. I spent a lot of time with the RS, Koetsu Urushi Wajima, Onyx and Onyx Platinum. The Urushi's in general have been some of the best value Koetsus, in particular the Wajima, Black and the Vermilion. I did also hear the Sky Blue but wasn't so enamoured by it. It sounded very much like the Absolute Sound test report where the highs were rolled off. Not sure what was going on with that! The non platinum Onyx was a great cartridge too and of course the Onyx Platinum better still. As others have hinted, the stone bodied Koetsus are cooler sounding but resolve better. I've not yet had the pleasure of trying a RSP, but if I may say, having tried the others in an FR64S, while working well, the highish mass of the arm started to cause some pickup of record warp etc. In this respect, the 64FX was a better match with its lower effective mass. I will be interested to know how you get on with the RSP in your 64S. Other arms tried successfully with my Koetsus have been SME V, Graham Phantom Supreme, Goldmund T3B, Jelco 750, Koetsu 1100D mk2, VPI JMW 10.5i and the original JMW 10. I admit to being a bit shocked hearing the Wajima Urushi in the JMW 10, very open and dynamic!!! Have also heard the Urushi Black in an Origin Live Conquerer in a friends system and it was great. I've been searching for alternatives to the Koetsus but haven't succeeded. Too many of today's high end cartridges sound like hifi and not a believable event. But as usual, just my opinion of course, and we all have one! Happy listening to all. |
All Koetsu owners, By implication from the post above, you should all throw your cartridges in the trash because they are high in distortion. I don't know if that really is the case, and even if this were an objective fact, clearly, this supposed distortion doesn't matter much. If it did, one can do even more to avoid it by avoiding analogue altogether and by buying a cheap CD player instead--by objective measurement, even a cheap player is vastly superior. |
Dear @karl_desch : I owned the KRSP and is a clear positive departure for the terrible quality performance of Koetsu cartridges before it. With this Platinum model Koetsu improved both frequency extremes range. Now we have good highs and better bass range but that's all, it's a departure from but that's all because it's not has excellence level quality. So you own a very good cartridge in that KRSP. That you touted it over the A-90 just tell me your preferences that's clear that you only like what you hear and have not as your main target to reproduce in your system what's in the recording where the A-90 is way superior to. Differences in between audiophiles are mainly the differences on each one system listening main targets. Mine is to mimic what's in the recording and to achieve it ( at least and just to begin with. ) any one has to stay far away from tubes electronics and away from undamped tonearms, period. Your main target is way different from mine, no problem enjoy your added distortions and be happy. Sooner or latter all of us learn about. Regards and enjoy Music Not Distortions. R. |
@terry9 Nothing particularly exciting to report on the stone body differences -- I find them all to be very close to each other; all excellent. I got the Coralstone brand new last year, and right out of the box it blew me away. Got my busted Onyx Platinum rebuilt by Koetsu shortly afterwards, and the Coralstone was definitely better from hour 1 -- it sounds denser and more lifelike from top to bottom, with a slightly lusher and more organic midrange. Definitely more of a music lover’s cartridge, but also very detailed. That said, after only 30 or so hours on the Coralstone, I switched to the newly rebuilt Onyx for run-in. And now, with some hours and a amp tube change (to a warmer/lusher phase splitter), I’m enjoying it about as much as I was the Coralstone. I’ll have to switch back again and see where that takes me. I originally bought the Jade and Onyx used (~300 hours each) several years ago. they were extremely similar sounding. You really had to split hairs to say maybe the Jade was a bit airier on top and the Onyx had a bit more warmth down low. The Jade shell is thinner and lighter than the Onyx; who knows if that contributes. Now that the rebuilt Onyx is run-in, it does seem that it's retained a lot of its original sonic nuances...but cleaner and more detailed. I also have a supposed original Sugano-Sr. RSP with 500 hours (never rebuilt). It’s also very very good but I like the stone bodies a bit better; they have more powerful bass response, which makes them more musically complete and accurate to my ears. And I certainly don’t hear anything syrupy, overly warm, or slow about the RSP (as some have tagged it in the past). Perhaps the character of the RSP has changed quite a bit over the years. I also have an even older non-platinum Onyx that definitely fits the old Koetsu stereotype - warm and technicolor (not so accurate, but beautiful sounding in some ways), lol. I think the new Koetsus and rebuilds are fantastic. Dead-on channel balance, too. If anything, they’re getting better at making these. |
Nobody in this hobby is a tabula rasa . We all have ''some beliefs'' or prejudice at least. My was based on Raul's influnce because I believe in his ears but not in his theories. He invested much money in those ''carts of the month'' so we were able to profit this way fom him. My prejudice against ''Koetsu'' was confirmed by one of the (many) models or versions: the Rosewood . But this ''confirmation'' was refuted by the Blue Sky which I like very much. So , obviously, we can't judge about ''Koetsu'' in general. |