'Stratus seekers for status seekers' is the way I once heard someone describe Koetsu cartridges. As in 'somewhat cloudy, misty and warm sounding' having an irresistable attraction to people who believe that buying a Koetsu is the entry ticket to some exclusive club. It's the same kind of pride of ownership you can observe with other luxury brand goods. There's nothing wrong with that of course, but it's a lifestyle thing and has very little to do with the sound quality.
I acquired a Koetsu Onyx some time ago (no 'P' in the serial number, so presumably a pre platinum version) to find out for myself what all the fuss is about. I still haven't a clue, although I've tried all I could to make it sing. It's been installed in 5 different tonearms, in voltage and current gain amplification devices, in 2 different SUT's (one copper wired, the other silver) and with a wide variety of headshells, leadwires and tonearm cables (balanced as well as unbalanced). But no matter what I did, to some extend it would always sound congested and with a limited bandwidth. I have to assume this is their sonic imprint which sticks to it like white on rice (or brown as it turns out). Apparently there are a lot of folks who (think they) like it that way. I don't, but at least I satisfied my curiosity. Exit Koetsu.
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@mijostyn
Thank you for your response. First, I was not aware of Matsudaira San and his talents and abilities and I thank you for making me aware of him and "My Sonic Lab". However, I also agree with you comments about Ortofon and their superior engineering and manufacturing capabilities. You do nat remain in business for so long without the commitment they have made over the many years. I have respected their abilities for many years. Lief Johannsen has provided some excellent products even more recently. Shortly after Orotofon came out with the "MC A95", I requested that my name be included to purchase the 100 year anniversary version when it would become available, that is, the "MC Century". I never did obtain one, however, that may have been for the best! I believe they sold for "Crazy High Prices". I did purchase and still retain the "Ortofon X5-MC", and the "Ortofon MC-30 Supreme".
It is unfortunate that companies that developed a name and reputation for themselves over the year because of the superiority and quality of their product only to "go downhill" in manufacturing, quality control, etc., and simply rest on their laurels of previous years. I have directly witnessed such decline in other areas such as Footwear, Sporting Goods, and others after a change in leadership or when purchased by another party. It is sad and at times disturbing for me to have witnessed. When accountants ran the manufacturing divisions. I certainly have no idea what happened at Koetsu,, but, you are absolutely correct to attribute the decline after Sugano San's departure. But the decline continued and is steady. Today Koetsu essentially is enjoying a receptive market founded on what was made by them in 1990 and earlier. Today, Koetsu could not provide me with anything that I would be pleased with. And, I would challenge them to prove otherwise.
You mention the wear of the stylus, but certainly a suspension could be changed easily if all else is well. And an older cartridge is either "Broken", or in need of a stylus or cantilever, or the suspension. Are you convinced that they simply replace the unit? I would not be surprised that would be the case, however, there could easily be exceptions.
I would be pleased if only someone from Koetsu would care to contribute to this Forum. I only expounded on this matter because at the age of 77, and being a technical person, and starting, owning, and operating a manufacturing facility before selling and retiring because of medical issues of both my wife and I, I am disappointed in some areas where there is/was no need for disappointment. I hope that Ortofon continues on and perhaps. others enter the picture to continue in this analog industry that is continuing to grow contrary to the other alternatives. And, I certainly do not intend to discredit some of the alternatives, however, there is nothing close to listening to an excellent Vinyl recording on a good system. And, yes I realize that this is a limited and expensive pursuit. I hope that the future allows for excellent capabilities at a significantly lower cost. There is no need to be as exclusive because of one's ability to purchase expensive components.
Enough said!
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@wizzzard , You could try opening a post on Audiogon. Otherwise, I am not sure how you would attract experienced Koetsu users. Most of us attribute the decline to Sugano San's death. His son took over and the theory is that he is not as talented. I do not think the QC is as good. In short I prefer My Sonic Lab cartridges at least while Matsudaira San is alive. He is the preeminent living Japanese cartridge designer at this time. Only Jonathan Carr and Ortofon are as or more progressive.
Buying an old cartridge is highly problematic. Retipping the cartridge may not return it to it's former glory even if done by Koetsu. In many instance they just give you a new cartridge in exchange for the old one. Cartridges are like wine. Once you drink the bottle they are a memory only.
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Hi @mijostyn
cc: @mulveling
cc: @statman71
Good day "MIJOSTYN"! You made comment that that "no Koetsu fan I know of prefers the later cartridges", namely the platinum versions and just more recent versions. Now, I have had this belief as well for a very long time. I was considered "crazy". Even if you speak to someone today in Retail or affiliate with Koetsu, or a distributer, they refuse the believe such a statement. Even if you state that you are listening to an "old" 10, 15, 20, or 30 year old Koetsu - It is impossible to be better. For certain the suspension must be suspect, and it can not possibly be as good. That you need to buy a new one and compare it, you will agree. If you stated you did buy a new one just 4 years ago, and was completely disappointed and choose to part with it. They imply that you are lying or there is something "wrong" with your system even if you provide them with copies of the receipts. I understand the technical aspects, after all, I am a technical person and I do take measurements after listening judgements (always after never before), and, I know room acoustics play a very important role, and, in my case that involves three rooms, and I do know that opinions are subjective. However, what you are saying, and what I also believe to be true is a significant matter. And, I was wondering, because I do not belong to any forums or have any experience in such matters, and I notice you have 7,074 posts, which indicates your knowledge and experience. Is there a way to conduct a survey of others to find out what they think to be true. Which can relate to more meaningful purchases for others. What I am implying is that people interested in obtaining a Koetsu would also entertain an "older" Koetsu to purchase as an alternative to a brand new one. Do you have any thoughts? Is there away to conduct such a meaningful survey?
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Wizzzard, I’d recommend a higher effective mass tonearm to get the very best out of your Koetsu, no matter what the magnet is made of. I’ve owned my Urushi for 14 years; it got better and better as I moved it into progressively higher mass tonearms over the years. Started in a Triplanar. Currently in an FR64S with 18g Ortofon LH9000 headshell. (Stylus only was replaced along the way by Expert Stylus Repair in UK.)
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This is a case where things have obviously gone downhill. The current Koetsu line can not compare to the earlier cartridges. No Koetsu fan I know of prefers the later cartridges. If you do not have access to an earlier one get a My Sonic Lab Signature Gold. It is a superbly built, very Koetsu sounding like cartridge.
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@wizzzard Your report of your experience is valuable, the use of a product and description of how the product is used/has been used, will always be a very good record to put in the place where others will look in on occasions to see if something can be learned.
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Hi@statman71
Corrections
I certainly hope you received a satisfactory response to a question you posted 5 years ago. I find this of interest. I only recently joined this website and peruse the forums. Even though it has been 5 years may I reinforce the comments of others especially the knowledgeable mulveling.
It was some years ago that I purchased two Koetsu Onyx Signature cartridges the same day at the same store. Serial numbers: #1167 and #1169. One was purchased as a present (which never happened) and one I mounted on an Oracle turntable fitted with a SME V tonearm. I still have both cartridges, the #1167 is now mounted on an Oracle Delphi Mark VI with a SME V tonearm, and the #1169 still remains in its box and never used. I presently have three Oracle turntables (I had others that I sold). What can I say who buy two Koetsu cartridges at a time, and who has/had a collection of Oracle turntables. But it makes for great comparisons. Yes I also owned a Koetsu Onyx Platinum. Operative word being "owned". I had it for a relatively brief period. A semi-friend was primarily interested in purchasing one of my Oracle Mark IV tables. He also liked the Alphason Xenon tonearm I had but was not pleased with the Benz-Micro MC-3 Gold that was mounted, but wanted a Koetsu. I was not going to part with the original Onyx Signatures because I considered the non-platinum cartridge very much superior to the Onyx Platinum. So, I parted with the Onyx Platinum for that reason.
I do not know the reasoning, but the non-platinum, In my opinion, is superior. Whether it is because it was fabricated by the Master himself, Yoshiaki Sugano, or because of the output voltage of 0.44mV, or because of its weight at 14.95 grams - I have no idea. I realize that after Sugano San was fading from the operation the idea to incorporate platinum magnets to control the eddy currents was the reason that I found the Onyx Platinum inferior, or, was it that Yoshiaki Sugano was no longer involved personally in the fabrication or finalization. I do not know. It was shortly afterwards that the company went almost dormant for 3 to 4 years. And Platinum was promoted as superior when the manufacturing was resurrected.
Nevertheless, I had the opportunity to listen to both on identical Tonearm/Turntable and Phono Pre-amp set-ups, and easily be able to switch among speakers. To me there was no question, tho non-platinum Onyx cartridge is superior. To this day this one arrangement exists and gives me great pleasure. The suspension system (surprisingly) is still working well, considering the Keotsu cartridges are not good tracking cartridges. When new, they both, that is, the Platinum and the Non-Platinum just passed my "Test" record at 70um. At times even 65um, but they improved a bit over some time.
I realize that this is no more than further verification of what the others have already stated. And, as a new member, I just wanted to insert my two cents worth of opinion. I realize that the word "Platinum" is a great Marketing tool, but, I think the Koetsu Brand could "Actually" (Hard to comprehend) even improve their products if they reverted back to the Samarium-Cobalt or other magnet materials, and, forget the Marketing because they already HAVE the reputation. They do not need any gimmicks. But, that is my humble opinion as someone who has a M.B.A. in Marketing as well as a Doctorate in Chemistry. Sorry - A bit much. My apologies to Koetsu.
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Hi@statman71
I certainly hope you received a satisfactory response to a question you posted 5 years ago. I find this of interest. I only recently joined this website and peruse the forums. Even though it has been 5 years may I reinforce the comments of others especially the knowledgeable mulling.
It was some years ago that I purchased two Koetsu Onyx Signature cartridges the same day at the same store. Serial numbers: #1167 and #1169. One was purchased as a present (which never happened) and one I mounted on Oracle turntable fitted with a SME V tonearm. I still have both cartridges, the #1167 is now mounted on an Oracle Delphi Mark VI with a SME V tonearm, and the #1169 still remains in its box and never used. I presently have three Oracle turntables (I had others that I sold). What can I say who buy two Koetsu cartridges at a time, and who has/had a collection of Oracle turntables. But it makes for great comparisons. Yes I also owned a Koetsu Onyx Platinum. Operative word being "owned". I had it for a relatively brief period. A semi-friend was primarily interested in purchasing one of my Oracle Mark IV tables. He also liked the Alphason Xenon tonearm I had but was not pleased with the Benz-Micro MC-3 Gold that was mounted, but wanted a Koetsu. I was not going to part with the original Onyx Signatures because I considered the non-platinum cartridge very much superior to the Onyx Platinum. So, I parted with the Onyx Platinum for that reason.
I do not know the reasoning, but the non-platinum, In my opinion, is superior. Whether it is because it was fabricated by the Master himself, Yoshiaki Sugano, or because of the output voltage of 0.44mV, or because of its weight at 14.95 grams - I have no idea. I realize that after Sugano San was fading from the operation the idea to incorporate platinum magnets to control the eddy currents was the reason that I found the Onyx Platinum inferior, or, was it that Yoshiaki Sugano was no longer involved personally in the fabrication or finalization. I do not know. It was shortly afterwards that the company went almost dormant for 3 to 4 years. And Platinum was promoted as superior when the manufacturing was resurrected.
Nevertheless, I had the opportunity to listen to both on identical Tonearm/Turntable and Phono Pre-amp set-ups, and easily be able to switch among speakers. To me there was no question, tho non-platinum Onyx cartridge is superior. To this day this one arrangement exists and gives me great pleasure. The suspension system (surprisingly) is still working well, considering the Keotsu cartridges are not good tracking cartridges. When new, they both, that is, the Platinum and the Non-Platinum just passed my "Test" record at 70mu. At times even 65, but they improved a bit over some time.
I realize that this is no more than further verification of what others have stated. And, as a new member, I just wanted to insert my two cents worth of opinion. I realize that the word "Platinum" is a great Marketing tool, but, I think the Koetsu Brand could "Actually" (Hard to comprehend) even improve their products if they reverted back to the Samarium-Cobalt or other magnet materials, and, forget the Marketing, because they already HAVE the reputation. They do not need any gimmick. But, that is my humble opinion as someone who has a M.B.A. in Marketing as well as a Doctorate in Chemistry. Sorry - A bit much. My apologies to Koetsu.
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I experiment with swapping a lot of gear - depending on partnering gear, the non-Platinum magnets (Onyx in my case) work better in some cases, and Platinum works better in others. The non-Platinum magnets have more output to work with. They're also a bit more brash and dynamic / punchy sounding. The Platinum magnets are smoother and more refined sounding. But OP need not stress over which magnet his Onyx has - just listen and enjoy! The Platinums cost more but are not necessarily better.
Blue Lace Platinum combines the smooth lushness of Platinum magnets with better dynamics and detail compared to other stones or RSP. It's the best. I also like Onyx Platinum, but it lags a little behind the Blue Lace. The warmer / softer sounding stones like Jade and Coralstone can be just too over-smoothed for many systems.
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Platinum magnets are like green eggs and ham.
I do not like green eggs and ham.
I have dated numerous Koetsu's over the years, and the allure has waned with the passing of the old master and the advent of platinum magnets.
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Not sure about how one dates a stone body Koetsu.
Carbon dating?
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@edgewear
By now I’ve seen pics of several slightly different pre-Platinum Onyx short bodies; it’s almost impossible to say exactly what you have, unless you get in direct contact with Koetsu. Still so much mystery with Koetsu!
I don’t personally know of any Platinum Koetsu that doesn’t have a leading "P" in its serial number, but that doesn’t mean it can’t exist. There could be pre-Platinum Koetsus that were later rebuilt with Platinum magnets (with original top plate retained).
You might join the "Koetsu Users" Facebook group, which has some interesting vintage Koetsus posted & discussed by members. These groups have the advantage of easy image inlining.
In a revision of my previous comment on this thread, I would now estimate my non-platinum Onyx at between 0.4 and 0.5mV output. Not fully double the Platinum model’s 0.3mV, but still quite noticeably higher. I would guess its magnet is most likely samarium-cobalt or permendur (i.e. like the Black, Rosewood, and Urushi models). The fabled long-bodies should use alnico - very large alnico magnets were necessitated by the (relatively) weak magnetic material, which required the long bodies to house it!
As to sonic matching - I absolutely prefer all my Koetsus with EAR SUT (or Koetsu SUT, or Quadratic MC-1 SUT) over any active MC stage, including that of my ARC Reference 3SE. FR64S and 64fx arms here. But then, every system is different!
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I have had good success with a Rosewood Signature Platinum on a FR-64S. The pre I use is a Pass XP-27 which I preferred to a SUT/MM input combo. Not sure about how one dates a stone body Koetsu. Did you have a chance to examine the stylus with a microscope?
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I’ve recently acquired a previously owned Koetsu Onyx, but would like to find out more about its vintage. It has black blocks with unthreaded mounting holes and a black upper side with ‘made in Japan’ and ‘18333’. No P before the serial number. Is it correct to assume this is a pre Platinum version, or are there platinum versions without that P? The box only has the three letters ‘PLO’ handwritten in pencil. With some fantasy this might indicate PLatinum Onyx, but obviously anyone could have scribbled this on the box. Does anyone here know what version this might be?
I have more than 30 cartridges but this is my first Koetsu, believe it or not. I was not impressed by hearing a Rosewood in my own system a few years ago. So I lost interest in the brand, for a while anyway. While this Onyx sounds much better than my memory of the Rosewood, I’m still not overwhelmed. Any tips on getting the most out of it?
PS: I followed the general consensus and started with an FR64S with SUT (Ortofon T-3000). When I moved it to a Micro MAX-237 with solid state mc phono amp it opened up and sounded more powerful and dynamic. Anyone tried it with current gain phono amp?
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Hi @statman71
I own a Koetsu-rebuilt Onyx Signature (original Alnico magnets), Koetsu-rebuilt Onyx Platinum, and Coralstone. All 3 styli are still in early life (but well broken in); good for comparison. I had the Sig - an original Sugano Sr. build - rebuilt because its original stylus was very worn (inner groove distortion, marginal tracking), even though it still sounded great. I instructed Koetsu to keep the original magnets. These magnets have the added benefit of fully DOUBLE the output signal vs. Platinums. That really helps keep down the noise floor.
The Signature has become my all-time favorite cartridge. It’s more musical and somehow also more neutral than the Platinums. It renders a better 3D soundfield with greater depth. And dynamics are a little more explosive. The magic Koetsu midrange/vocals are there in full force.
I also love the Platinums; they have a creamier, smoother spin on the sound that seems more refined at first. But at least for now, I love the Signature even more.
At first the Signature was a little bit disappointing after rebuild; it was just a touch dry and soulless for a Koetsu (still a Koetsu though), but it broke in beautifully and now sounds like it did before the rebuild, but without the worn stylus issues.
It’s of course possible my preference is due to the peculiarities of my setup & gear. I also listen to quite a bit of hard/alternative rock and heavy metal, which may affect preference as well (the Signature is brilliant for this genre). In a few weeks I should be trying out a Fidelity Research FR64S against my current Graham Phantom Supreme. I also have a Shelter Harmony on a Clearaudio Universal, that I really enjoy in the rotation to take some hours off the Koetsus.
If you do plan to source an Onyx Signature, please only have it rebuilt by Koetsu Japan! I cringe every time I see a beautiful Koetsu thoughtlessly affixed with that ridiculous SoundSmith ruby cantilever. You frequently see these for sale here with "under 20 hours" and the ubiquitous claim "it sounds better than stock"...yeah, right! There is also rumor that Koetsu Japan will reject any Koetsu modded by a 3rd party, though I cannot confirm this myself.
-- Mike |
