Koestu original Onyx Sig pre-platinum cart vs. later/current platinum Sig comparisons

Hi@statman71

Corrections

I certainly hope you received a satisfactory response to a question you posted 5 years ago.  I find this of interest.  I only recently joined this website and peruse the forums.  Even though it has been 5 years may I reinforce the comments of others especially the knowledgeable mulveling.

It was some years ago that I purchased two Koetsu Onyx Signature cartridges the same day at the same store.  Serial numbers:  #1167 and #1169.  One was purchased as a present (which never happened) and one I mounted on an Oracle turntable fitted with a SME V tonearm.  I still have both cartridges, the #1167 is now mounted on an Oracle Delphi Mark VI with a SME V tonearm, and the #1169 still remains in its box and never used.  I presently have three Oracle turntables (I had others that I sold).  What can I say who buy two Koetsu cartridges at a time, and who has/had a collection of Oracle turntables.  But it makes for great comparisons.  Yes I also owned a Koetsu Onyx Platinum.  Operative word being "owned".  I had it for a relatively brief period.  A semi-friend was primarily interested in purchasing one of my Oracle Mark IV tables.  He also liked the Alphason Xenon tonearm I had but was not pleased with the Benz-Micro MC-3 Gold that was mounted, but wanted a Koetsu.  I was not going to part with the original Onyx Signatures because I considered the non-platinum cartridge very much superior to the Onyx Platinum.  So, I parted with the Onyx Platinum for that reason.

I do not know the reasoning, but the non-platinum, In my opinion, is superior.  Whether it is because it was fabricated by the Master himself, Yoshiaki Sugano, or because of the output voltage of 0.44mV, or because of its weight at 14.95 grams - I have no idea.  I realize that after Sugano San was fading from the operation the idea to incorporate platinum magnets to control the eddy currents was the reason that I found the Onyx Platinum inferior, or, was it that Yoshiaki Sugano was no longer involved personally in the fabrication or finalization.  I do not know.  It was shortly afterwards that the company went almost dormant for 3 to 4 years.  And Platinum was promoted as superior when the manufacturing was resurrected.

Nevertheless,  I had the opportunity to listen to both on identical Tonearm/Turntable and Phono Pre-amp set-ups, and easily be able to switch among speakers.  To me there was no question, tho non-platinum Onyx cartridge is superior.  To this day this one arrangement exists and gives me great pleasure.  The suspension system (surprisingly) is still working well, considering the Keotsu cartridges are not good tracking cartridges.  When new, they both, that is, the Platinum and the Non-Platinum just passed my "Test" record at 70um.  At times even 65um, but they improved a bit over some time.

I realize that this is no more than further verification of what the others have already stated.  And, as a new member, I just wanted to insert my two cents worth of opinion.  I realize that the word "Platinum" is a great Marketing tool, but, I think the Koetsu Brand could "Actually" (Hard to comprehend) even improve their products if they reverted back to the Samarium-Cobalt or other magnet materials, and, forget the Marketing because they already HAVE the reputation.  They do not need any gimmicks.  But, that is my humble opinion as someone who has a M.B.A. in Marketing as well as a Doctorate in Chemistry.  Sorry - A bit much.  My apologies to Koetsu. 

Hi@statman71

I certainly hope you received a satisfactory response to a question you posted 5 years ago.  I find this of interest.  I only recently joined this website and peruse the forums.  Even though it has been 5 years may I reinforce the comments of others especially the knowledgeable mulling.

It was some years ago that I purchased two Koetsu Onyx Signature cartridges the same day at the same store.  Serial numbers:  #1167 and #1169.  One was purchased as a present (which never happened) and one I mounted on Oracle turntable fitted with a SME V tonearm.  I still have both cartridges, the #1167 is now mounted on an Oracle Delphi Mark VI with a SME V tonearm, and the #1169 still remains in its box and never used.  I presently have three Oracle turntables (I had others that I sold).  What can I say who buy two Koetsu cartridges at a time, and who has/had a collection of Oracle turntables.  But it makes for great comparisons.  Yes I also owned a Koetsu Onyx Platinum.  Operative word being "owned".  I had it for a relatively brief period.  A semi-friend was primarily interested in purchasing one of my Oracle Mark IV tables.  He also liked the Alphason Xenon tonearm I had but was not pleased with the Benz-Micro MC-3 Gold that was mounted, but wanted a Koetsu.  I was not going to part with the original Onyx Signatures because I considered the non-platinum cartridge very much superior to the Onyx Platinum.  So, I parted with the Onyx Platinum for that reason.

I do not know the reasoning, but the non-platinum, In my opinion, is superior.  Whether it is because it was fabricated by the Master himself, Yoshiaki Sugano, or because of the output voltage of 0.44mV, or because of its weight at 14.95 grams - I have no idea.  I realize that after Sugano San was fading from the operation the idea to incorporate platinum magnets to control the eddy currents was the reason that I found the Onyx Platinum inferior, or, was it that Yoshiaki Sugano was no longer involved personally in the fabrication or finalization.  I do not know.  It was shortly afterwards that the company went almost dormant for 3 to 4 years.  And Platinum was promoted as superior when the manufacturing was resurrected.

Nevertheless,  I had the opportunity to listen to both on identical Tonearm/Turntable and Phono Pre-amp set-ups, and easily be able to switch among speakers.  To me there was no question, tho non-platinum Onyx cartridge is superior.  To this day this one arrangement exists and gives me great pleasure.  The suspension system (surprisingly) is still working well, considering the Keotsu cartridges are not good tracking cartridges.  When new, they both, that is, the Platinum and the Non-Platinum just passed my "Test" record at 70mu.  At times even 65, but they improved a bit over some time.

I realize that this is no more than further verification of what others have stated.  And, as a new member, I just wanted to insert my two cents worth of opinion.  I realize that the word "Platinum" is a great Marketing tool, but, I think the Koetsu Brand could "Actually" (Hard to comprehend) even improve their products if they reverted back to the Samarium-Cobalt or other magnet materials, and, forget the Marketing, because they already HAVE the reputation.  They do not need any gimmick.  But, that is my humble opinion as someone who has a M.B.A. in Marketing as well as a Doctorate in Chemistry.  Sorry - A bit much.  My apologies to Koetsu. 

Hi @mijostyn 

cc: @mulveling 

cc:  @statman71 

Good day "MIJOSTYN"!  You made comment that that "no Koetsu fan I know of prefers the later cartridges", namely the platinum versions and just more recent versions.  Now, I have had this belief as well for a very long time.  I was considered "crazy".  Even if you speak to someone today in Retail or affiliate with Koetsu, or a distributer,  they refuse the believe such a statement.  Even if you state that you are listening to an "old" 10, 15, 20, or 30 year old Koetsu  -  It is impossible to be better.  For certain the suspension must be suspect, and it can not possibly be as good.  That you need to buy a new one and compare it, you will agree.  If you stated you did buy a new one just 4 years ago, and was completely disappointed and choose to part with it.  They imply that you are lying or there is something "wrong" with your system even if you provide them with copies of the receipts.  I understand the technical aspects, after all, I am a technical person and I do take measurements after listening judgements (always after never before), and, I know room acoustics play a very important role, and, in my case that involves three rooms, and I do know that opinions are subjective.  However, what you are saying, and what I also believe to be true is a significant matter.  And, I was wondering, because I do not belong to any forums or have any experience in such matters, and I notice you have 7,074 posts, which indicates your knowledge and experience.  Is there a way to conduct a survey of others to find out what they think to be true.  Which can relate to more meaningful purchases for others.  What I am implying is that people interested in obtaining a Koetsu would also entertain an "older" Koetsu to purchase as an alternative to a brand new one.  Do you have any thoughts?  Is there away to conduct such a  meaningful survey?

@mijostyn 

Thank you for your response.  First, I was not aware of Matsudaira San and his talents and abilities and I thank you for making me aware of him and "My Sonic Lab".  However, I also agree with you comments about Ortofon and their superior engineering and manufacturing capabilities.  You do nat remain in business for so long without the commitment they have made over the many years.  I have respected their abilities for many years.  Lief Johannsen has provided some excellent products even more recently.  Shortly after Orotofon came out with the "MC A95", I requested that my name be included to purchase the 100 year anniversary version when it would become available, that is, the "MC Century".  I never did obtain one, however, that may have been for the best!  I believe they sold for "Crazy High Prices".  I did purchase and still retain the "Ortofon X5-MC", and the "Ortofon MC-30 Supreme".

It is unfortunate that companies that developed a name and reputation for themselves over the year because of the superiority and quality of their product only to "go downhill" in manufacturing, quality control, etc., and simply rest on their laurels of previous years.  I have directly witnessed such decline in other areas such as Footwear, Sporting Goods, and others after a change in leadership or when purchased by another party.  It is sad and at times disturbing for me to have witnessed.  When accountants ran the manufacturing divisions.  I certainly have no idea what happened at Koetsu,, but, you are absolutely correct to attribute the decline after Sugano San's departure.  But the decline continued and is steady.  Today Koetsu essentially is enjoying a receptive market founded on what was made by them in 1990 and earlier.  Today, Koetsu could not provide me with anything that I would be pleased with.  And, I would challenge them to prove otherwise.

You mention the wear of the stylus, but certainly a suspension could be changed easily if all else is well.  And an older cartridge is either "Broken", or in need of a stylus or cantilever, or the suspension.  Are you convinced that they simply replace the unit?  I would not be surprised that would be the case, however, there could easily be exceptions.

I would be pleased if only someone from Koetsu would care to contribute to this Forum.  I only expounded on this matter because at the age of 77, and being a technical person, and starting, owning, and operating a manufacturing facility before selling and retiring because of medical issues of both my wife and I, I am disappointed in some areas where there is/was no need for disappointment.  I hope that Ortofon continues on and perhaps. others enter the picture to continue in this analog industry that is continuing to grow contrary to the other alternatives.  And, I certainly do not intend to discredit some of the alternatives, however, there is nothing close to listening to an excellent Vinyl recording on a good system.  And, yes I realize that this is a limited and expensive pursuit.  I hope that the future allows for excellent capabilities at a significantly lower cost.  There is no need to be as exclusive because of one's ability to purchase expensive components.

Enough said!