Understood. My Apogees are the infamous Scintillas. They are a bear to run, but when they do, there are very few grand speakers to compare. British reviewer Ken Kessler has used his own pair to judge all components by. He has said, "If speaker reviews were a meal, the Scintilla is the antipsto few speakers dare follow."
The much smaller Stage is a marvel. I've owned that one too, and the Duetta Signature. The reviews at the site I gave you (didn't I?) tell the truth about all models.
There is a ribbon speaker builder down under that produces ribbons and installation instructions for all Apogee models.
Prices for mint Stages are in the $800 to $1200 range. Duetta Signatures will go for $1400 to $2000, Divas $4000 to $4500, Scintillas, only $1500 (when you can find them) plus big bucks for really big amps. I ran the Stage happily with 100 watt tube amps. The Duettas required a hundred watts more, while my Pass Labs X600 amps are giving their all powering the Scintillas. |
I sort of feel that way about my Dahlquist speakers although I imagine after this much time they have been surpassed. No way to tell without blindly buying something. I can never judge anything in a store. I feel fortunate to land a winner in the Jolida. What model of the Apogee do you own? How much does that model go for now on the used market? |
Sylvania's are forward sounding.
About Apogee, heartbreak isn't the word for it. I know many apogee owners over the land, and they are all in love with their speakers. We also rest assured our repair needs are covered. I will never own another speaker brand. |
I am one obsessive devil when I search for something. The secret is to enjoy the search and leave no stones unturned.My system is very close to being where I want it and I cant stop this close to the finish line. I did follow up on the Apogee speakers but I see no point in tracking down another speaker which is no longer made. It just leads to heartbreak! By the way have you or any one else experimented with mixing brands in your Players? One tube Sylvania and one tube RCA? They are both 5751's or is that a No-No? Perhaps a crazy thought...just wondering! |
One of the traits of 5751 Sylvania is a slight forward presentation. I like that. The RCA is the favorite of most 5751 fans. However, we have discussed how tubes are system reliant. How did you find the black plates without my help? I didn't think that was possible. Good sleuthing. |
Tried the RCA 5751 triple blackplates(NOS) in the Jolida. They are very smooth,detailed but just a touch dry in my system. Soundstage dropped back just a bit from the stock tubes. All in all I prefer the chinese stock tubes to the RCA's. I await my Sylvania tubes. Finally found the Sylvania 5751 Triple Blackplate mica etc. It doesnt have the gold pins though. Eager to hear if they bring a little more liquidity and I hope they push the sound a little more forward. |
The EH tube is not great for everyone. I'm no expert on pre amp tubes. I have heard that they react quite differently to tubes than do cdps. You will have to do another search for the pre amp. |
Muralman, Your critique on the various tubes seems to be in line with other summations I have picked up on the web. The telefunken's according to some may win the prize for the most overrated tube.Raytheon is getting a lot of praise as a sleeper tube that is quite good. I did find some Sylvania JAN 5751 and WA greyplate triple mica Premium. They are NOS with 1963 date codes. Only 23.00 a tube so I thought they where worth a try. Sovtek's are hated by everyone....I guess I should remove them from my Pre-amp. Dont the same people make the Electro -Harmonic tube? |
Not to worry, the D1 is a DAC and would require a new transport, and another pair of able interconnects. I'm not willing at this time, to put that kind of work and money into my system. I'm having too good a time now. |
6,000? If your thinking along those lines your out of my league. There is a point of diminishing returns that set in after a certain point. I remember a friend of mine investing in the 35,000 HQD system about 16 years ago. Doubled speakers and everything tri-amped. I sat in stunned silence fighting for something good to say about it.Price no object mediocrity! |
Hey, if we keep up this dialogue, this thread might reach "What do you think?" status. |
Well, I am looking at the Pass Labs D1 ($6000 new). (sigh)
Sovtek - your weak link? ooooh yeah. write me.
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I think I have a better chance of finding Osama or Saddam than a pair of Sylvania 5751 Black Plate's. I have Sovtek's in my Pre-amp and I wonder if that's a weak link. I will try the Electro Harmonix and see how that works in the Pre-amp and install my RCA's 5751 old stock in my Jolida when they arrive. I wish I knew your source Muralman but I dont blame you for keeping it quiet.Of course you realize you will probably find another player before you burn up all those tubes! |
Are those the real Holland made Bugle Boys? That is suppose to be a super tube. The mods I heard about insert Svetlanas. The Bugle Boy raise the ante. Please let us know how they do. Real Bugle Boys, like Sylvania black plate, are also getting impossible to find. |
There have been a lot of posts about the Jolida JD100 and 5751 tubes. I have just purchased a used Jolida that has the Parts Connexion Level One moda and cryo'ed Ampex Bugle Boy 12AX7 tubes. Has anyone else tried cryoed tubes in these units?
I am also interested in trying the Sylvania Black Plate 5751's, so if anyone has a source I would appreciate hearing about it. |
I've been through Telefunken (big head, soft bass, brittle highs), Mullard 4004 (good, has some microphonics undisguised in my system), Jan Phillips (nice all around, but thin), Svetlana (bold, with good body, big head, mistimbred), Chinese (surprisingly good, soft bass, rounded attack), Sovtek (ouch), Eletro harmonix (great mids, rolled off), Sylvania Black plate (superb timbre, great attack, solid bass, black background, correct staging, huge depth, slighly forward, extended treble that may sound hard on some tweeters.)
Many ss amps and pre amps can become harsh and bright when driven hard. Non adj. volume Cd players can't. They are always pumping out the same signal. |
Milindks, its my pleasure. I tried the JAN GE 5751s with green lettering(grey plates). Not my cup of tea either. I bet that modded player sounds awesome.
Maybe I wont try the Svets. What about the new production Sovteks, anybody have any experience with these in this player? |
Muralman, I dont blame the Jolida by any means.The Musical Fidelity amp and the Jolida as well as the Harmonic Technlogy Interconnects have pushed my system to a level where I am very close to what I consider perfection. There may be no such as perfection given the variable nature of recordings however. No matter how good a system is I bet I can find a recording to make it sound bad! I guess my question is (with my inexperience in tube rolling) how great a difference is there with a selected reference recordings in the tubes you have tried? Do different tubes improve the sound in subtle different ways or is the difference profound and dramatic? |
Given you cdp is healthy, it would have to be the tubes, or downstream components that are straining.
The words, harsh, edgy, just aren't in the Joida's vocabulary. It may be the tubes; I can't remember. There are always those pesky downstream components. Any of them may be spoiling the pot. |
Playing my new JD-100 with the stock chinese tubes I am amazed at how good the sound is on certain recordings. A CD of the Barber Violin concerto is all one could ask for. Seductively lush and warm yet it doesnt hang back in the soundstage. It is detailed and dynamic and yet retains the warmth and liquidity that is so appealing to me.The problem I have with my system is just a little too much edge with loud passages on certain recordings.This may correct itself with a sustained breaking in of the player though. I am wondering for those of you who have found the "perfect tube" are there still recordings that sound harsh or edgy? Or does tube Heaven cure a multitude of sins? |
The GE grey plate is reportedly the least of the 5751 tubes. It can be brash, and a bit less liquid. Still, not a bad tube. The Svetlanas are decent tubes, but we have been talking about far better. I'm curious about the Sovtek 5751. I have never heard a report on them. |
Hi Distortion,
After following all your posts, I bought Modified JD-100 from Underwoodwally, it came with svets, as per your obervations I ordered EH12ax7 and I am really happy, this tube is better than Svets's, recently I found that now Underwoodwally is offering level 2 mods on this CD-P, and the tubes he is offering with it are NOS GE-5751 (Not sure whether those are triple mica), So now I am also looking for Good 5751's, I already have new GE 5751 with green lettering, but I never liked thise with Jolida Amp, hopefully will try that one some time, Another variant I tried in Jolida Amp was RCA 7025 (I will post the exact number afterwards), which was better than all 12AX7 I had at that time, but as Walter wasn't keen on substituting those for 12AX7, I haven't tried those.
Thanks a lot for posting all your finding about the tubes, that's the reason I skipped everything and went to EH12AX7.
Thanks, |
What about the Sovtek 5751's? Anyone tried them? |
Yeap. Here are two current production tubes.
EI 12ax7ln's sound pretty good, laid back highs, smooth mids, nice edge, tight bass.
EH 12ax7's sound good as well, laid back but not as much as the EIs, very very smooth mids, a little less attack, decent bass.
Both tubes are available for less than 15.00 each from www.thetubestore.com, cheap alternatives to NOS IMO.
I think I am also going to try some Svets, A'gon member Underwoodwally seems to like them in his jolida CDPs. |
My black plates have been burning some 600 hours with no weakening noticeable. They do have a reputation for earlier burn out than most. I have one spare pair, and a private collection where I can score one more pair. I'll be trying some cheaper and more plentiful substitutes soon. I'll let you all know how they turn out.
Distortion has already announced he likes his EH 12AX7 tubes better, because of his spirited upper treble. Svetlana isn't all that bad. Mullard works on some systems. JAN Phillips is an all rounder. None of these, I would put into my first system. |
I have been burning up the web looking for the Sylvania 5751 grey plate mica gold pin tube. No luck so far. The black plate according to one source is a great tube but is more prone to failure than the grey plate. He had some that after six months were down by 50%. I have ordered the RCA (NOS) 5751 and am awaiting shipment. It will have to do while my holy grail search continues. Anyone know of a currently produced tube worth a listen? |
Thanks for the feedback on the gray vs. black plates. I searched the closed auctions on Ebay for "Sylvania gold 5751" and it generated a source. I e-mailed him and asked him if he had more, I bought a matched set.
Anyone have any experience with a power cord upgrade for the JD-100? I'm still running the stock cord and want to upgrade. Thanks. |
Mijknarf, Distortion has taught me there is no "best" tube. It's all system dependant. For my system, it is black plates or nothing.
Unless... How in the world did you come by Sylvania Grey plate gold pin tubes? That's a good find. You really can't expect more with the black plate. Congratulations.
The Electro Harmonics 12AX7 tubes have a great midrange, but are rolled off at the top. |
I know I'm joining in late to this thread. I bought a new JD-100 from VeraStarr 4 months ago with a mini mod and couldn't be happier. Great advice from these guys, break in is easily 100 hours. Muralman1, I agree, the Sylvania black plates are hard to find, I finally bought the Sylvania Gold 5751 trip mica gray plates a couple months ago and noticed a general increase in openness over my stock 12ax7eh electro-marmonics, I just don't know what I'm missing over the Sylvania black plates. Any comments are appreciated. |
Mine sounded great outta the box as well. It absolutely gets better with time! and tubes too!!!
Enjoy.....its an outstanding value. |
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Muralman! I just received my JD-100 today. Wow! It sounded damn good right out of the box! This player is going to awesome when I update the power cord and get it burned in. I was worried it might sound overly mellow but it has plenty of bite and a nice harmonic richness to it. Soundstage is big and Im suprised that it has more detail than my old NAD player which excelled in that area. I cant imagine what a tube roll could do. Doesnt seem to have much room to get better or can it? Im in heaven! |
I know about the break in period. I read your battle with Socrates about the Jolida. My harmonic technology interconnects sounded HORRIBLE out of the box. I was really depressed big time. Ater they cooked up for a period of time the gates of heaven opened........... |
Muralman1, Thanks again! I will check up on the Apogee. I had a friend yeras ago who ran a store called Hoffman's House of Stereo. I was fortunate to be able to hear in my system lots of high end gear without having to purchase them blindly. I learned that no matter how highly certain equipment was lauded by Stereophile or any other publication some just dont live up to the hype. Of course it could have been a case of mismatched components. It makes all of this a wild goose chase of sorts. My friend passed away and I dont have that privledge anymore.I am relying on these discussion forums to help bring me up to speed. The kind of music people listen to and their subjectivity complicates matters as well. I listen to mostly Classical music and I like rich ,warm, sound with a big soundstage. If the Apogee can produce that kind of sound I want it! |
If you are buying the unit from Bill Baker, you better give the Jolida a month's use before calling him or he will bite your head off.
I know; having the half a brain he left me with is why I stay in this hobby. ;) |
Follow up: I will break in the Jolida when it arrives and try the russian tubes tha Response Audio includes with purchase. Then I will try the RCA's. I have to find the Sylvania's 5751 somewhere. The upgrade bug has bitten me and Im infected! |
You are welcome, Rkt.
May I be so bold as to suggest a future speaker upgrade where you will not have to sacrifice even your second born?
Have you ever heard of Apogee? There are some Stage speakers with stands selling for 1k now here. Talking about a cheap treat!
Check the Apogee Stage out:
http://69.10.198.101/stage.htm |
My thanks to Muralman1 and Distortion! You guys have been very helpful and I really appreciate your comments. We are all flying blind on trying to upgrade our systems and this opinion sharing can help cut down an immense amount of variables.Muralman, my speakers Im afraid are the somewhat outdated Dahlquist DQ10. I imagine they have been surpassed by time but I honestly dont know where to begin on finding something better that would not cost me my first born child.The Precision Fidelity C7a is a tube Pre-amp that achived classic status. Its hard to find and still sounds wonderful in my system. It sings with my Musical Fidelity Amplifier. The harmonic truth link and Pro-Silway MK3 added another step up. My NAD CD player gave up the ghost and you have convinced me based on your comments that the Jolida 100 might be what Im looking for. |
My ears were itching all day, I should have known it was you =). Tube rolling is awesome I have enjoyed it immensly, and like everything else, tube choice is so very system dependent. |
RKT008, the Jolida is a marvelout 1k player. Your amp is good. I don't know about the pre, haven't heard it. I do like line stages on most. Speakers?
Break in the RCA/Jolida for an extended time, before making a decision.
For non offending resolving systems the Sylvania 5751 triple mica black plate is the best of the best. Your system might be better suited to some other tubes. This is another great thing about the Jolida, you can taylor it's sound to suit.
I have a virtually new pair of 4004 Mullards I can sell. There are those that think the Mullard is the best. My ultra sensitive speakers picked up too much microphonics on what would have been nice tubes. |
Distortion, I was talking about you behind your back. Shame on me.
You bring up an important point. Tube rolling will be important with the Jolida. I can see how Distortion's system benefits from the EH tubes. |
Rkt008, I have used the RCA 5751 black plates, I like 'em. I just did another tube shootout this past weekend. The RCA 5751s sound great, just a smidge more highs than the EH12ax7s. Depending on your system and room they may be just what the doctor ordered. As far as the reduced gain, you can hardly tell.
My system and room tend to emphasize the highs(metal tweets, Bryston amp, Hardwood floors, silver hybrid cables, no drapes, etc.).
Muralman and I posted back and forth on tube selections. I agree with him completely that the EHs are just a bit laid back. Mural's system surely has quite a bit more resolutiuon than mine and I suspect he can hear differnces I cannot. However, for my system, I prefer the EHs, with the RCAs a very close second. I am seriously looking for the Sylvania 5751s but they are darned hard to find. Eventually I will find some. It may very well be, that I like them better. |
What kind of 5751 did you use? You were pretty convinced in these old posts that it was the solution! This is my first post by the way! |
Gee, this is an old thread. I had to read what I had told you first. I still have mine. I've never used The RCA 5751 triple mica. My favorite is the Sylvania, but they are becoming near impossible to find, and are pushing $100. I think I know where you can get some, but you will have to contact me privately.
I recently bought some much cheaper Electro Harmonix 12AX7 tubes to try on some one's recommendation. the mids were great, but it didn't have the extension of the 5751. There was hardly any difference in perceived loudness between the two. |
Muralman1 I have just ordered the JD-100 CD player after reading your rave reviews. I have Precision Fidelity C7A Preamp (which has no line stage) and Musical Fidelity Amplifier. I ordered RCA 5751 Black plate Mica tubes and Im wondering if its a mistake with the lower gain. Do you think it will work with a Pre-amp with no line stage? |
Hi Buxter, of course there are different tubes for different folks. I am partial to old stock 5751 tubes made by Tungsol, RCA, Sylvania, GE, Raytheon, and Siemens. All of these do well in suppressing microphonics, and have good frequency extension. There is a drawback with these though. They have less gain than the 12AX7 tubes. If you feel your system already has inadequate power, this is not the tube type for you. |
Muralman, so what tubes did you end up with that worked in your system??? I have Svetlana in mine, which sounds very good, but I feel I could get better... any recommends? |
The Jolida is a very nice unit. I ended up buying a JD100 after auditioning a Cairn Fog V.2, Musical Fidelity 3.2, Classe .3, and an ARC CD2. The JD100 more than held it's own against any of those players. It has an engaging quality to it. Very easy to listen to. Does many of the audiophile things well but most importantly I find myself just listening to the music instead of anaylizing the 'sound'. You can enhance the quality with tube rollling, interconnects, a high quality power cord, or upgrade it via Parts Connexion (mine does not have the Parts Connexion upgrade). Build quality is surprising. The chassis is rigid, the power supply, transport, and output stages are all physically seperated within the box. The power supply appears to be well done with two transformers. The circuit design is free of cheesy op-amps, even the headphone output is driven by a mosfet and not an op-amp. The remote is a surprise, a stout aluminium affair more like you see from the mega dollar manufacturers. The appearance is at least equal to or better than the $1500-$2000 players. A spectacular bargain but more importantly well engineered, constructed, and a fine sounding player. |
Socrates, It all depends on the tubes chosen, and how pliable your speakers are. For example, there are a lot of people that just love Mullards, but in my system I couldn't get past the noise caused by microphonics. So I chose tubes that don't suffer from microphonics. Some ATX tubes roll off the highs, and I stay away from those too. All one has to do is a little research.
The Jolida will not load up on treble transcients, if that is your pleasure. It will not give your cds that etched "high end" sound. It will give a marvelously natural sound that is so real. |
A question, if I may, about this tube CDP. Is there any tube 'hiss' whatsoever from it to be heard through the speakers? I've had and heard tube preamps and amps, as the stereotype goes, most of course have rolled off highs and soggy lows, and along with the noise I can't stand to live with them. Are these characteristics also present in a tube CDP, such as the Jolida? Thanks! |
