Not to worry, the D1 is a DAC and would require a new transport, and another pair of able interconnects. I'm not willing at this time, to put that kind of work and money into my system. I'm having too good a time now. |
Muralman, Your critique on the various tubes seems to be in line with other summations I have picked up on the web. The telefunken's according to some may win the prize for the most overrated tube.Raytheon is getting a lot of praise as a sleeper tube that is quite good. I did find some Sylvania JAN 5751 and WA greyplate triple mica Premium. They are NOS with 1963 date codes. Only 23.00 a tube so I thought they where worth a try. Sovtek's are hated by everyone....I guess I should remove them from my Pre-amp. Dont the same people make the Electro -Harmonic tube? |
The EH tube is not great for everyone. I'm no expert on pre amp tubes. I have heard that they react quite differently to tubes than do cdps. You will have to do another search for the pre amp. |
Tried the RCA 5751 triple blackplates(NOS) in the Jolida. They are very smooth,detailed but just a touch dry in my system. Soundstage dropped back just a bit from the stock tubes. All in all I prefer the chinese stock tubes to the RCA's. I await my Sylvania tubes. Finally found the Sylvania 5751 Triple Blackplate mica etc. It doesnt have the gold pins though. Eager to hear if they bring a little more liquidity and I hope they push the sound a little more forward. |
One of the traits of 5751 Sylvania is a slight forward presentation. I like that. The RCA is the favorite of most 5751 fans. However, we have discussed how tubes are system reliant. How did you find the black plates without my help? I didn't think that was possible. Good sleuthing. |
I am one obsessive devil when I search for something. The secret is to enjoy the search and leave no stones unturned.My system is very close to being where I want it and I cant stop this close to the finish line. I did follow up on the Apogee speakers but I see no point in tracking down another speaker which is no longer made. It just leads to heartbreak! By the way have you or any one else experimented with mixing brands in your Players? One tube Sylvania and one tube RCA? They are both 5751's or is that a No-No? Perhaps a crazy thought...just wondering! |
Sylvania's are forward sounding.
About Apogee, heartbreak isn't the word for it. I know many apogee owners over the land, and they are all in love with their speakers. We also rest assured our repair needs are covered. I will never own another speaker brand. |
I sort of feel that way about my Dahlquist speakers although I imagine after this much time they have been surpassed. No way to tell without blindly buying something. I can never judge anything in a store. I feel fortunate to land a winner in the Jolida. What model of the Apogee do you own? How much does that model go for now on the used market? |
Understood. My Apogees are the infamous Scintillas. They are a bear to run, but when they do, there are very few grand speakers to compare. British reviewer Ken Kessler has used his own pair to judge all components by. He has said, "If speaker reviews were a meal, the Scintilla is the antipsto few speakers dare follow."
The much smaller Stage is a marvel. I've owned that one too, and the Duetta Signature. The reviews at the site I gave you (didn't I?) tell the truth about all models.
There is a ribbon speaker builder down under that produces ribbons and installation instructions for all Apogee models.
Prices for mint Stages are in the $800 to $1200 range. Duetta Signatures will go for $1400 to $2000, Divas $4000 to $4500, Scintillas, only $1500 (when you can find them) plus big bucks for really big amps. I ran the Stage happily with 100 watt tube amps. The Duettas required a hundred watts more, while my Pass Labs X600 amps are giving their all powering the Scintillas. |
Rkt008, please come back and let us know how you like the Sylvania's sound. |
Distortion I eagerly await both Sylvania's. I ordered the grey plates first because that's all I could find. They are due any day now. I then found some 3 mica blackplates and ordered them.Awaiting them as well. I kept the old tubes I took out of my Pre-amp and I was curious as to what make they were( I bought them before I knew anything about this stuff)and to my suprise they were westinghouse 5751's! I have heard those might have been made my Sylvania! I bought them in town at an electronic store. Is there any way to tell if they are Sylvanis's? I will follow up and let you know about the grey and black plates. Thanks for asking! |
Do tell, Rkt008. Might you be an investigator by trade?
Have you guys looked up "Joe's Tube Lore" yet? I've been letting it be my loosely followed guide. |
Hi Rkt008,
Can you please let us/me know the source for Black plates or Gray plates, last time I saw black plates on ebay, someone else grabbed those.
Thanks, |
Milindks, Just like Muralman1 I really dont want to reveal my source because they only had 2 in stock and I want to buy more should they prove to be the Holy Grail for my system. I spent over 8 hours on the web just to find those! If their stock was plentiful I would be more than happy to share with others.They may not even be able to pull more in anyhow. Be patient and keep searching! Good luck! |
Muralman1, You flatter me! An investigator by trade? That gave me a good laugh. Im just a crazed obsessive music lover that insists on getting the sound I want just like the rest of you guys! Actually Im a well known Artist (painter) in my state. My brother is better known nationally and writes classical music reviews for the American Record Guide and the british publication Tempo. He is the one who infected me with the "Super system stereo bug". I managed to shake off the bug until I found Audiogon and now I have a full blown case of upgraditis.I think I caught reading you guys! I have put apogee on my short list should I look at speakers. Supposed to be a great speaker for Classical Music. |
Well well well, and my handle is Muralman.
Today I hosted a Triangle speaker/Levinson/Electrocomaniet/OTA owner. Long ago he use to have Quads. We played the Kinks, and the Greatful Dead he brought. He went away planning to get Quads again, and a Jolida 100. |
RKt008....
I have been following this thread because my next purchase will most likely be the Jolida JD100...
and not owning one yet I had nothing to add of interest until the discussion of Apogees arose...
I too, up until last year was on a mission to satisfy my obsessive quest for the speakers of my dreams...
I had thought that ultimately they would be speakers that would be priced way out of my league..
but had not, after owning perfectly acceptable speakers, and auditioning some others , found any that
moved me as I needed to be moved. I,too, am a classical music lover and attend live symphony often to have a good reference....
Muralman1 responding to a post of mine and waxed poetic about Apogees and their ability to convey
the emotion of instruments...
As luck would have it (long story) without even an audition I wound up with a pair of the Apogee Stages.
It was my lucky day....As one who always worries that just around the bend there may be a better amp...
or a better CDP or a better cable..(I can obsess with the best of 'em)..I have to say that since owning these Stages for almost a year now...I have never once entertained the thought of replacing these speakers...
I truly think If I ever did it would be to just go up the chain within the Apogee line...
They take some care ....but they reward you with blissful sound and musical satisfaction beyond description......
Apologies for hijacking this thread off-topic....
Susan |
|
Allegro, Thanks for the feed. Classical Music is probably the true test for a speaker. There is tremendous demand on the speaker to get so many different lines and instruments correctly. A literal smorgasboard of sounds and harmonies. I did fing some apogees for sale but they didnt want to ship them---just selling if you can pick up. Probably a major pain to box and ship. Thanks for the insight! They are on my short list.... |
I've shipped two pairs of big Apogees via an antiques mover, where they strapped the speakers to the side of the truck surrounded by blankets. My Stages came via Fed Ex Air untouched. That was kinda lucky. Off and on there are Apogees for sale in every area.
I sold my Stage speakers to an eager buyer in up state Idaho. We met in Winnemuca Nevada. Doing that, you can double the pick up range. |
When Im ready to upgrade to different speakers I imagine I will find a way to land some. Not sure if I want to accept their bottow of the line though as good as they might be. The ones just up from the stage is where I will set my sights. I have been running the Jolida all day (reinserted the stock tubes) and switched the Pro-Silway MK3 interconnect to the truth-link. Also upgraded the power cord. Hard to believe the sound can get better! Allegro,get this player! I was playing some Delius and the strings were so sweet and harmonically rich it took my breath away. This is as close to a perfect piece of equipment as I have ever come across. Delicacy with immediacy. Big orchestral moments in Mahler are powerful but rounded, horns climb though the texture with bite and your just swept into the music. Hard to believe this player costs 900.! I await my Sylvania's but Im hard pressed to believe this sound can get better! |
In your system, who knows. In my system, there is no tube to compare to the Sylvania at three times the cost.
The Stage is hardly the bottom of the Apogee line. It is the last full range designed. It is also the smallest. Using stronger magnets and a new bass panel design, the Stage is a lot easier drive. There are those (me included) who will argue it is the best sounding Apogee until you get to Diva, Full Range, and Scintilla. These, along with the Duetta, are huge (5'-8'). They need a big room to fully breath. |
Muralman1 Thanks! I will consider the stage if and when I can find a pair in great shape. I have been checking audiogon and there hasnt been any for sale. Eventually something will show up. Still waiting for my Sylvania's to show up. |
Sure thing. The last I saw, the Sylvanias were approaching a hundred dollars a pair. |
Actually I paid 80.00 but they are not Gold Brand with the gold pins.. |
Really, that does not matter. When I made the comment about my surprise at the (who was it?) purchase of gold pin grey plates, it was for my not having found them, not that they were better in any way than the black plates. My favorite tube in the two applications I've tried them are 5751 Sylvania black plates. According to what I have read, there is no difference between these and the grey plate gold pins. |
You're referring to me, I have the Sylvania gold/gray plates. I have not tried the black plates (because I cannot find them) but I have heard both good and "not so good" things regarding the gray. I have a hard time believing Sylvania Gold with black are much better. My only problem with the Sylvania Gold/gray plates is the harshness I hear at moderately high volumes. My other choice is going to be RCA black plate triple mica. I'll let folks know how they differ. |
Hi Mijkarf, I did a quick search up the ladder but couldn't find a clue word. They are the Gold Box grey plate gold pin tubes, right? Harsh? this what "Joe" had to say:
"Sylvania Gold Brand grey pl ate gold pin - OK, this is the
legend. When people talk wantonly about the famous Sylvania
Gold Brand 5751 gold pins this is the tube they are referring
to. Does it measure up to the hype? Well by and large, yes. To
my ears it is the the 2nd or 3rd best 5751 ranking up there
with the Sylvania & GE black plates. Its strength is its
midrange, but it may also be its weakness. The mids here are
full, lush, tangible and maybe (just maybe) a trifle
overblown. Occasionally i find the lush full vocals obscure
just a bit of detail and reduce transparency slightly, but the
mids are so lush I could understand how you might not care.
The tube also has a measure of life and vibrancy, similar to
the Sylvania's black plates and it also has a bit of the
forwardness that's seems to be endemic to Sylvanias in the
5751 family. I've lived with this tube enough to know I could
use it quite happily, though that would be in the context of a
fairly neutral system where its own colorations would not go
over the top. If your rig is already warm, smooth, lush and a
bit lacking in detail this guy could turn things just a touch
syrupy. But given the sound of a lot of cd based systems he
could be just the ticket... Availability on this guy is
limited. His reputation has made him a rare, if not
outrageously expensive beast (usually $30 - $40 a tube) and he
is long lived" |
I ordered a matched set of Siemens and Halske 5751 TRIPLE MICA tubes the other day. I was told by a local tech that the Siemens tubes are extremely good tubes; in his opinion as good as the Sylvania Gold Brand 5751's. They won't arrive until next week, but the price was decent @$60.00 for a matched pair. If anyone wants address, I know where to get more of these. |
My take on the Sylvania Grey plates,RCA etc. First I should state that none of these have been burned in properly (including my JD-100 player)and that as you all know has a great effect on the sound. The Sylvania 5751's grey plates sound very transparent, very smooth, very naturally detailed and I might add very close to what I hear in the concert hall. Both the RCA bLackplates and the Sylvania sound just a touch dry ( just a touch) in my system. The chinese stock tubes so far are the winner! They are perhaps a bit more colored and less neutral but they have a liquidity and glow that for me is a walk to paradise garden.Listening to W Allyn's "Lyra Angelica" the strings were silky and so engaging and coupled with the beautful harp runs I found myself pulling away from analytical thoughts about sound and drifting into spiritual grace. I dont think anyone who prefers these classic tubes is wrong all these things as Muralman points out are system dependent. So far my quest ends where it began. The chinese tubes are the winner! Best of all (for me) they are cheap and available! |
Muralman1: Thanks for the response. You have to go up the ladder to 9/20/03 to see my comment about Sylvania Gold brand gray plate tubes, Joe's comments on AA is partially what made me decide to get these tubes. I have read some of your other posts and see that you are supporting it with Pass x600 monos (must sound super!) my Jolida is running through my Pass x250, and I couldn't be happier.
Any comments of power cords that work well on the Jolida, I need to upgrade? |
Mijknarf, yeah, you know it, I wouldn't have invested in the X600, if I didn't believe my Scintillas would put me in heaven. I heard my 1 ohm speakers in the mid eighties, so I had no question whether to spend a car's ransom on amps to drive them.
The irony is, my satisfaction with a sub grand front end... If it works...! |
My Sylvania 5751 Triple mica blackplates have finally arrived and have been cooking in my system for about 8 hours.Now this is more like it! Much better than the Sylvania grey plates or the RCA. I am wondering if the grey plates and the RCA were weeded out tubes from a larger batch. There are variables within the same make. I have read that out of every ten made usually only 4 are up to the standards needed for high quality audio. The Sylvania blackplates are the tube to get. The stock chinese tubes are my second choice. If you can find an RCA its worth a listen..... |
Rkt008, end their suffering, and tell them you are just joking ;-) |
I wish I was joking. I was perfectly happy with the chinese stock tubes until I heard the Sylvania Blackplates. This tube has it all! Its smooth ,detailed,very liquid,the sounstage is huge! The RCA and the greyplates had some of these qualities but the sound was very dry and that for me is a no-no. It may be that they were cast outs from a bad batch. The Sylvania Blackplates also pitch the sound forward. This puts vocals right in your lap. That may bother some people but I love it! Also there is a nice sense of air and bloom around the instruments. This is the Holy Grail! Sell the kids,auction off the mother-in-law,steal from the collection basket,pay any price but find this tube! |
The Sylvania - Exactly like I hear it. I still want to find a cheap gold plate cup substitute for the Holy Grail. |
If you find a substitute let us know. I am trying to track down another pair for backup. |
Bill Baker of Response Audio likes the RCA 12AU7 clear top - would be worth a try.
Hey lurkers, let us know your favorites. |
Where can one obtain the Sylvania 5751 triples or, is availability of these kind of a hit and miss affair? What about the RCA 12AU7s, are they readily available? |
The RCA 12AU7 clear tops are readily available from numerous sources. The Sylvania, as plentiful as Sovteks five years ago, are nearly vanished, the demand is so high. The source I have used has only a few left, and, heartless as it may seem, I have a friend (Susan above) that I am holding my tongue for.
I have one spare pair. Both Rt008 and I are looking for a tube that will prove to be a close second. He still likes the Chinese tubes that came with the Jolida. I wonder if I can find mine? |
The trouble with recommendations is that one should hear the Sylvania Blackplates first to familarize yourself with its "sound" and qualities before offering up its replacement. I bought my Jolida form Bill Baker but I dont know if he has heard the Joilda with the Sylvania's. Actually all these tubes have some good qualities and Im sure to some they sound fairly mellow and appealing. The Sylvania 5751 Blackplates do some things the others to not especially pitching the sound forward. Liquidity is especially important! We all chasing down tubes to get away from that dry,sterile,soul sapping digital sound. |
Bill once told me his favorite tube was the RCA 12AU7. I believe he has that one in stock. |
Can the 12au7 be used in a slot for 12ax7? I dont think so. |
My JD-100 arrived today....it's playing as I type....
Sunday I will have lots of time to listen.....and swap tubes....
I have a bevy of tubes to play with......
........will I like it better than my Arcam Alpha CDP?
We shall see.... :) |
Ah Allegro. Hope all goes well. Leave it silent playing continuously till Sunday. The Jolida does not hit full stride till a month's playing. |
Thanks, muralman...yes..I have had it on repeat since my first listen....and I am expecting the arrival of some more tubes today....
Rachmaninov & Leo Kottke are waiting in the wings! |
"I didn't know you had an Arcam," he sheepishly says. This will be a waterfall in the making, or it may be a Waterloo. |
Or if I have to crouch behind this AV rack one more time it may be Water-On-The-Knee! ;) |
Is there some trick to getting this cover off?
It shouldn't be this hard....and I don't want to break it! |
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