JBL 4367 = Sleep Denervation

I'm not sure how the word denervation applies here, but from what you describe, all that I can say is: Welcome to the world of well-designed horns! 

For my taste they sound more real than anything else

I think he was trying to say "sleep deprivation"

Congratulations! I love JBL’s and often wonder why people spend more than $20K (cost of the JBL M2 active version, including the amps and crossovers). Their motto is Hear the Truth and that pretty much sums it up. I found my JBL stand mounts really opened up when I biamped them FWIW, have fun!

Roxy54,

Lol, Shows how little sleep I have gotten! As a long-term member it should be clear typing on my phone is not my best skill.
 

Thanks I have heard other similar types of  horns that did not impress me much but these JBLs are better than I could have imagined. 

Congrats James sleep deprivation can have odd effects indeed lol and JBL FTW.

That’s great & what all our systems should do for us & “soothe our savage beasts”! Good quality horn loaded speakers are capable of reproducing micro & macro dynamics like few other speakers can short of really pricey ones matched w/ heroic amplification.  I’m a Volti Audio fan for similar reasons w/ similar late night sessions. 

Jonwolfpell,

Yes, I think you are correct. This is my first horn experience in my own system so I can’t say if it is horns in general or if JBL has some magic sauce on these drivers. Either way I am hooked. I realize I am in the honeymoon period but I don’t see myself going back to standard box speakers anytime soon. Anything that could bring these type of dynamics would be well out of my price range. Some of the largest wilson’s I have heard had the same impact and quality to their bass but would come up way short on the mids/highs compared to these.

the lowest octave is a little light on the 4367 so I am filling that in with subs (40hz and down) for a nice full range sound. 40hz seems to be low enough not to diminish the detail retrieval the 4367 has in the bass.

I think what is making these sound great to me is they still follow the Harman design philosophy of a slight downward sloping tuning and even off axis sound. They are very much tuned like the Revels but bring so much more in detail and dynamics with texture I have not had in my system before.

My room is also heavily treated with 7” “bass taps” at first reflection points (side and back walls) and my entire ceiling is treated with 6” of mineral wool covered with an acoustic tile. In college I started out in the headphone world and think I have a favor toward damped rooms. It seems to add a bit of clarity vs a live room. I have A/B my room with and without the treatment and much prefer it with treatment.

Always nice to find something that speaks to your soul.

Enjoy

What are you driving them with?

McIntosh MC462 (4 ohm tap). I am also high passing from a pair of JL subs right around 45hz.

I have the HF trim at -0.5db and the UHF trim at -1.0db. I find these trim settings greatly effect the sound from warm to bright if you want it. I believe the HF from is from 1.5k to 6k and the UHF trim is 5k up.

Have you tried the 8 ohm taps?

@james633 , You are not even 50% of the way there yet. Your speakers are capable of even better performance! 

The woofer in the 4367 is crossed over to the horn at 700 Hz. That covers a huge amount of the mid range. Remember, middle C is 256 Hz. 700 Hz covers more than another octave!  Do you know what Doppler shift is? That is when a car honks it's horn while it is passing you, the horn changes tone. That is what a woofer does when it moves towards you then away from you, it shifts the frequency of everything else it is reproducing. This is called distortion! This movement is most pronounced at very low frequencies. If you can see the woofer moving it is causing Doppler distortion. This usually occurs below 100 Hz. In the case of your speaker probably 80 Hz. If you have a test record with frequency bands you can see when this happens. Adding subwoofers to a system is not only to add more low end, it is also to lower distortion in the main speaker. With these speakers a minimum of two 12" subs is required and you have to use a high pass filter on the main amplifier, a full two way crossover. Digital is best. Crossover at 80 Hz. Do this and you will take your system a large step forward. 

Markd51,

I have not tried the 8 ohm tap yet but maybe I should. On my other speakers if chose a tap above the lower ohm limit it tends to make them brighter. Using the lower tap does reduce power but power is not an issue. I will have to look at the measurements again but I think the 4367 is around 6 ohm minimum. 

Mijostin,

I am using two JL E112 highpassed. I have not settled on a crossover point. It seems fine anywhere between 40hz and 80hz. Normally I use about 60hz for most speakers but I am finding the 4367 has more texture and tone between 40-60hz than the subs, so I am not sure what I will do.

Might be time for better subs. I have been looking at some subs. But subs are hard to research as I am not interested in output just want more texture than some of these highly damped home theater subs. JBL makes a matching sub for the M2 but I am not sure it is still in production. Not sure subs from say perlisten or something like JTR captivators would be better or not. Perlisten would need to wait as the big boys are very expensive.

not sure I would know what the Doppler shift sounds like in speakers but I will give 80hz a try now. 

These are very nice speakers indeed.  I have never owned a JBL speaker and I want one.

If you have trouble sleeping, you can always drop them off at my house for a couple days.

Leave it To Jbl, Classic 2 way system. Love to hear these but even though I know what to expect

Ive owned many smaller Jbl, But the L300, 4350, Were something else

Really like that there is Real advancement .In Magnet and voice coil's on the drivers and Im sure crossovers as well

Enjpy

I am still really enjoying the JBL 4367. If anything my opinion over the last month has only improved.

I think there are two standout sound qualities that are special. #1 they just play so effortlessly. I listen louder than I should, often volumes in the upper 80s/low 90s (peaks at 100ish). No matter the volume there is a sense of ease, zero compression which I think comes off as sounding hard or grating on other speakers I have owned (minus the Revel 228be which also played silly loud).

The other standout sound quality is the dynamics. Hard to explain but instruments just sound more real. More snap, with better leading edge impact. Really impressive. You often here the word “live” thrown out and I think that “live” sound is dynamics.

Combine those things with an amazing amount of detail too top to bottom and these are a pretty special speaker. I am struggling to come up with anything I don’t like other than they are physically short and I had to make my own stand. At $16k they should have stands available.

All of the positive attributes that you describe are things that good horn speakers do best.

Roxy,

the interesting thing is I don’t feel like I have given up anything compared to a tradition box speaker to get the added benefits. I have almost no horn experience before this (PA systems and Klispch speakers). I never thought I would end up with a large two way horn but… these are going to be long term speakers for me. As my fun money/finances recover I think I will build out my home theater around them (I am 99% two channel). 

@james633 --

Congrats on your JBL 4367’s. I find them to be an impressive design from a relatively compact size factor, and agree that stands should be included. There’s something about the good old "15 inch woofer/mid and a horn" combo that has a timeless appeal as a very versatile, coherent and powerful sounding system. Perhaps a core element of this is the crossover region of these designs typically placed somewhere between 500-800Hz, and what it offers with a point source above in a large frequency span as well as an untarnished "power region" (say, 150-400Hz) below via a large coned driver where no crossover point is placed. Having a large radiation area here lends a fullness and vitality to this region that smaller woofers and midrange drivers (and often in multi-way designs with a XO point in the power region) simply cannot replicate.

I agree with poster @mijostyn’s good advice on high-passing your JBL’s for subs augmentation, though do it right - i.e.: also be mindful of the type of subs chosen, but as an outset you have a pair of JL Audio subs to experiment with, so see what you can harness it all into, and whether it coheres fittingly into a whole. Ultimately I’d go higher efficiency sub designs like the ones meant to be paired with the M2’s, as I suspect they’ll blend more seamlessly with type of woofer used in your 4367’s. This is not trivial, as I have tried out different constellations of higher eff. mains with lower eff. subs, and personally I find they just don’t mesh properly - for a variety of reasons.

As it is they’re still very capable used full-range (the only way I’ve heard them), and given their moderately high sensitivity and large air radiation area the doppler phase shift phenomena mayn’t be as pronounced here. Certainly using dual high eff. 15" woofers up to ~600Hz per channel in the main speakers (like I do), full-range, they have to be spanked pretty hard for the cones to move visibly, and when high-passed at ~85Hz to high eff. subs there’s zilch movement even at war volume levels.

Phusis,

thanks for the insightful comments. I believe you are correct on all aspects. 

@james633 Wrote:

I am still really enjoying the JBL 4367. If anything my opinion over the last month has only improved.

I think there are two standout sound qualities that are special. #1 they just play so effortlessly. I listen louder than I should, often volumes in the upper 80s/low 90s (peaks at 100ish). No matter the volume there is a sense of ease, zero compression which I think comes off as sounding hard or grating on other speakers I have owned (minus the Revel 228be which also played silly loud).

The other standout sound quality is the dynamics. Hard to explain but instruments just sound more real. More snap, with better leading edge impact. Really impressive. You often here the word “live” thrown out and I think that “live” sound is dynamics.

Combine those things with an amazing amount of detail too top to bottom and these are a pretty special speaker. I am struggling to come up with anything I don’t like other than they are physically short and I had to make my own stand. At $16k they should have stands available.

My sentiment exactly! The JBL 4367 speakers are great. I have been using JBL 4435's actively biamped since 1984 in my home two channel setup. I also previously owned JBL 4430's. 😎

@phusis, I agree 100%!

@james633 

I forgot to mention. if you high pass the JBLs to subwoofers at 80 to 100 Hz block those ports off on the JBLs. You no longer need them to enhance low bass and they are leaking muffled midrange. The low frequencies they enhance are being taken on by the subwoofers. Stuffing them with socks is not the right way to do this. You do want to pack them with Polyfil (Parts Express) then cover them with something attractive like 1/2" thick walnut cut to shape around the woofer so it reaches the four lower grill cloth sockets.. You can finish it with clear acrylic lacquer in a spray can sanding between coats with 320 grit sandpaper. It will require at least three wet coats. You can get the male pins to fit those sockets at Parts Express or you can remove them from the grills. You want to make sure there is some polyfil between the walnut and speaker around the ports. This is totally reversible should you ever want to sell the speakers. 

I can't stress enough the power of digital signal processing when it comes to integrating subwoofers and tailoring the sound of your system. The MiniDSP SHD preamp does everything you need at the extremely reasonable price of $1300.         I just set one up in my son in laws system and am very impressed. I you are computer literate you will enjoy this immensely and enter a whole new world of high fidelity. Plus your system will kick ass. 

mijostyn...can the MiniDSP SHD work with subwoofers only ? I don`t want

my turntable setup run through anything digital.

Mijostyn,

I have looked at the miniDSP SHD. It is much cheaper than other options. Do you feel there is any resolution loss with it? Think the output stage is good enough? It complicates my home theater pass through as I would have to use the analog input. 
 

I am currently highpassing at 60hz. 24db slope on both sides. 

@james633 - 

As mentioned in a different thread, I’m using the 2269H drivers that we know are used in the SUB18 cabinets.  They are musical and very enjoyable; not just air moving pro audio speakers.  My cabinets mimic the SUB18 cabinet volume.

@mijostyn writes:

“Adding subwoofers to a system is not only to add more low end, it is also to lower distortion in the main speaker. With these speakers a minimum of two 12" subs is required and you have to use a high pass filter on the main amplifier, a full two way crossover. Digital is best. Crossover at 80 Hz. Do this and you will take your system a large step forward.”  - I fully agree with these statements!

I am using McIntosh’s MEN220 for my subwoofer crossover and also use the room correction software to remove a node in my room.  It’s a nice unit.  Marchand makes great analog crossovers for reasonable prices.  The JL Audio CR-1 is very nice and the SPL crossover looks to be exceptional as well.

I also feel there is “no replacement for displacement” and while spousal approval is low for such a concept in living spaces, if you really want a system to “hit”, decent cabinet volumes are helpful.  This may be one of the reasons (of many) you are experiencing exciting audio with the addition of the 4367’s.  I experienced a large upgrade in low frequency response when I ditched the JBL ASB7118 cabinets in favor of the custom cabinets I had built by Joe at Stewart Speaker Systems.  The stock ‘7118 cabinets were too small and tuned for a “rock box” type sound.  The far larger cabinets that mimic the dimensions of the SUB18 are just right.  Flat response and musical in sound.

Adding JBL paper cone 18” subs with the accordion surrounds would be great synergy with your 4367’s that use identical woofer construction.  I’m a firm believer in synergy between all drivers in a system and maybe that could be some of the dissatisfaction with the JL Audio subs you are experiencing.

All JBL drivers in the sizes of 18” to 15” to Horn just seems right to me and I think you’d really have sleep deprivation if you added nice subs, an appropriate outboard crossover and power amp to your system in your nice room.  That would be a, pardon my French, effing unbelievable experience even over what you are enjoying now.

Thanks for letting me ramble!  What a fun journey!

It's funny in this thread I just saw and commented on the systems of @jheppe815 @ditusa and @james633 well done gentlemen one and all. 😎

@jond - Thanks for the kind words on my system! It’s appreciated! It was a heck of a journey with lots of experimentation and improvement as I went.

Jheppe815,

thanks for the input. I will buy something this year (still saving for now). I agree that the JBL SUB18 or equivalent would probably be the best option and I may go that rout. They are pretty huge but I have the room (anything goes in the basement). It gets pricier needing external amps. Not to mention a bit more clutter. 
 

there is almost no information comparing these very large subs other than home theater applications and I don’t trust those opinions as their wants are far different from mine. It is hard to say how something like the SUB18 compare to the JTR captivators which also measures well. 

@jheppe815 --

+1

@james633 wrote:

there is almost no information comparing these very large subs other than home theater applications and I don’t trust those opinions as their wants are far different from mine. It is hard to say how something like the SUB18 compare to the JTR captivators which also measures well.

Looking at the data of those two sub options (i.e.: JBL SUB18 vs. JTR Captivator RS1), it’s clear the lower tuned JTR is digging deeper with the same diameter driver from a smaller enclosure volume, and per Hofmann’s Iron Law that translates into lower efficiency. With the JBL’s rated at 92dB sensitivity, somewhere between moderate to high eff., it means the JTR’s are down there in the 85-87dB sensitivity region (certainly not higher). The thing is you don’t merely compensate with more power for a same-same scenario wrt. perceived bass imprinting between the two subs; even playing similar SPL’s they don’t sound the same, contrary to what measurements may indicate in the central bass area where most musical information resides. My assumption would be for the JBL sub to be somewhat more tuneful and textured in its bass response compared to the JTR, hereby being the better match to your 4367’s. Coming down to it the SUB18’s don’t go that much deeper than your mains (half an octave perhaps), but the real takeaway is high-passing the 4367’s in the 80Hz vicinity and have those SUB18’s (two of them, no less) take over from here. That is, relieve your 4367’s of central to low bass for cleaner and more dynamic mids and upper bass, and let the subs do what they do best here - THAT will make a difference. While the JTR’s dig deeper to make for some infrasonic effects with movies I’d wager the JBL subs are the better match with movies as well, even giving up sub 20Hz reproduction, being they likely provide better central bass slam and "bite" while being of the same "sonic cloth" as the main speaker woofers. This is not trivial, and something many overlook. Remember, integration is key.

Phusis,

thank you for the well written comment. My thoughts align with yours. I am not too worried about home theater (it is a duel room, but I am a 99% music 1% movies based on time spent doing each). Honestly I am am a little worried about infrasonics of those JTRs in the house. My wife says she already opens the basement and closet doors when I watch movies so they don’t rattle lol ?!?  Faux atmos no extra charge lol. 
 

I have to have subs to enjoy music on my home system. I have had subs for 15 years now and there really is no going back, typically I highpass around 60hz depending on room/speaker.  Based on comments here and some reading I will lean toward the JBL SUB18s when I am ready (maybe later this year).  I need an external crossover and amps so things get pricy quick.
 

I assume the SUB18 is still in production. Looks like B&H will order it. I have no JBL dealer around me and JBL’s website could not be any worse. It is hard to tell what they even make these days. 

@phusis Wrote:

I’d wager the JBL subs are the better match with movies as well, even giving up sub 20Hz reproduction, being they likely provide better central bass slam and "bite" while being of the same "sonic cloth" as the main speaker woofers. This is not trivial, and something many overlook. Remember, integration is key.

I agree!

@james633,

A used JBL B460 sub will match well with the JBL 4367's. See below:

Mike

https://www.lansingheritage.org/html/jbl/specs/home-speakers/1983-b380-b460.htm

https://www.lansingheritage.org/html/jbl/reference/technical/1983-subs.htm

I just want to add:

For anyone using the 4367 with standard smaller wattage amps. Please try biamp it. You’d be surprised how much "air", the atmospheric data and details there can be.

I started with a pass lab x250.8, then a single ahb2, then 2xahb2. Then out of curiosity I figure I’d try another pair that was suppose to goto 2nd system.

Absolutely amazing. The realism and airiness is mesmerizing.

I went to THE audio show, and I couldn’t find a system that I think can better my setup, that had never happen before.

So whatever power/current u can throw at it, try and see.

480w@6ohm for just the horn section is absolutely overkill, but everyday I’m at awe to what I’m hearing.

I'm a bit late to this thread but, thank you to everyone posting such great information.

I'm a longtime 4430 user and will receive a pair of 4367's this week to update my listening room. I can confirm how difficult it is to match sub(s) to the 15" JBL driver. I eventually gave up trying to do so with my 4430's. 

Once I get my 4367's dialed in, I'll give it a try again with the suggestions provided here.  Thanks again!

Troybn,

Post your opinion once you get them. I thought they sounded good out of the box but feel like the bass improved with a bit of time on them. The highs above 10k seem to sound better on tweeter axis rather than above it so you might need small stands depending on your seat. If you get too high or low the highs roll off a bit. Similar to toeing out the speaker.

As for subs, I don’t think this speaker needs subs, but subs do improve the sound. I have my speakers about 5’ off the wall and highpass to subs at 60hz-ish. Without subs I find the bass below 40hz a little light in my room. For an absolutely seamless sub integration I used a 24db slope on both sides at 37hz. This is a very “audiophile” sub setup. But I enjoy 60hz+ more as I like the slam the sub system brings. Without the active crossover I could not get the subs to blend well (measured/listening). With the active crossover on the subs more or less dropped right in.

if you place them closer to the front wall you can probably bring up the 30hz range but will make a dip in the 150hz range. Just have to play with it.

almost a year of ownership of the 4367 and my day one opinion of them has not changed. I will probably keep them until they wear out. Maybe I will add new speakers down the road but plan to just keep these regardless. I will be upgrading my sub system this spring if I can swing the cash.