I still have no idea what you're talking about. At least we have that one thing in common.
Jazz vocalists which may not be as real as we think/imagine
Sure we could include all genres of vocalists, but lets focus on jazz performers,,for instance , take Diana Krall.
I have a pile of cds that i do not listen to, old rock,,, 2 are my wife's she picked up as gifts, and never listened.
So I figured maybe I can use DK's as a test reference recording.
Her 1999 and 2001, both seem to my ears her voice is somehow ~~tweeked~~ laid out with modern aids such as EQ's and such.
My Q is , can we really consider DK's voice to be The Real Deal,,, or a perhaps a toch of ~ The Fake if not perhaps, bordering on, fraud.
I really can not use her cds in my testing of new tweeks, mods, , Her voice comes across wayyyy too warm = Colored = a nono for my ears.
I am after pure cold frigid, icy clean mountain spring water.
Anyway, justa random thought,, what say ye? Have you noticed this quirk among other jazz performers such as Sophie Milman, which btw , i do use in my YT vid uploads of testing reference on tweeks/mods/upgrades.
Her voice is at least somewhat more~~ a natural~, Just barely,,had her engineers gonea tad too far in tweeking, I may have to also disreagrd her cds.
Sure you might object and claim all recordings post 1985, have these intrusions of tweeking /EQing the voice, as a makeover.
I don't know, maybe in the past 20 yrs things have gotten out of hand.
So cast your vote, is DK's voice real deal,, or a tad fake?
Can she perform unpluged as she does on high tech studio records?
I have a pile of cds that i do not listen to, old rock,,, 2 are my wife's she picked up as gifts, and never listened.
So I figured maybe I can use DK's as a test reference recording.
Her 1999 and 2001, both seem to my ears her voice is somehow ~~tweeked~~ laid out with modern aids such as EQ's and such.
My Q is , can we really consider DK's voice to be The Real Deal,,, or a perhaps a toch of ~ The Fake if not perhaps, bordering on, fraud.
I really can not use her cds in my testing of new tweeks, mods, , Her voice comes across wayyyy too warm = Colored = a nono for my ears.
I am after pure cold frigid, icy clean mountain spring water.
Anyway, justa random thought,, what say ye? Have you noticed this quirk among other jazz performers such as Sophie Milman, which btw , i do use in my YT vid uploads of testing reference on tweeks/mods/upgrades.
Her voice is at least somewhat more~~ a natural~, Just barely,,had her engineers gonea tad too far in tweeking, I may have to also disreagrd her cds.
Sure you might object and claim all recordings post 1985, have these intrusions of tweeking /EQing the voice, as a makeover.
I don't know, maybe in the past 20 yrs things have gotten out of hand.
So cast your vote, is DK's voice real deal,, or a tad fake?
Can she perform unpluged as she does on high tech studio records?
80 responses Add your response
I think it's generally agreed that pop music singers are not the be-all end-all in vocal performance. In fact some of them are hardly singers at all, nor would claim to be. Not everyone can be a Robert Plant, Josh Groban, Ella Fitzgerald, Doris Day, or a Karen Carpenter etc. Opera singers on the other hand have to perform live on stage without amplification or vocal enhancements in front of demanding audiences whilst performing often difficult repertoire. Folk/ country singers also may often sing 'naked' in front of live audiences (not so much currently) accompanied only by a guitar. For marketing reasons record companies (and artists) seek to employ producers like Rick Rubin and Mark Ronson who have that golden touch which can turn albums into big sellers. They've both made some great records but I'd say that vocal fidelity was never the main concern of theirs. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if even artists like Andrea Bocelli didn't get the odd bit of help on his records. It's just the way it is today, and probably always has been. |
If you listen to all DK’s cd’s you will find that her voice differs a lot from recording to recording and also track to track. Pick the one’s you like most. Surely none of them are pure natural. Personally I like the Girl next door but it is to bassy in some parts. I use it for reference just because of that. You should not only use perfect recordings for reference. Close-miked recordings are often unlistenable on good systems, they’re done for radio. Have a listen to Bo Kasper "10 songs live". |
pure natural. Personally I like the Girl next door but it is to bassy in some parts. I use it for reference just because of that. You should not only use perfect recordings for reference. Close-miked recordings are often unlistenable on good systems, they’re done for radio. Have a listen to Bo Kasper "10 songs live".
Yes some tracks on Sophie Milman have a certain level of bass db, that seem to hard driving on the small 6 inch midwoofers in the Thors, , the Defy7 has too much slam watts even at low vol, Might be the new Mundorf Supreme Silvergold caps adding that bass slam. One of the best reference cds for velvety bass riffs is Burt Bacharach/Elvis Costello's cd On picking through Diana Krall tracks, to have her best, , its not really something i like to do, Sophie Milman and Jacintha, both offer wonderful music , on all tracks. Same with Bacharach/Costello, That brings up our old rock days, we used to listen to lp's, and skip a bunch of songs as *duds*,, I think Diana Krall was a *1 hit wonder*, although she has more than 1 hit, its the *duds* you have to get through with. |
Bo Kasper
Yes Indeed, Bo casper, Sound via my $10 comp speakers has this super high fidelity, = incredible reference cd and the music is very good. Nice recommend, make any system sound Class AAA And thats how dealers would sell us grade C speakers, with high quality reference cds https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1Z9e6U5V4E |
Diana Krall is OK I suppose. Many audiophiles are very taken with her due to sex appeal. She takes a good cover photo. Sultry. There are so very many other truly excellent jazz singers to choose from. Why spend your money on her? If you want sultry, listen to Julie London. Or you could just listen to good jazz... Here are tracks for Wesla Whitfield Blossom Dearie Gal Costa Carmen McRae Catherine Russell Peggy Lee |
Every recording is "equalized" if only by the choice of mic, since every mic sounds different and the engineer will choose one that benefits the performer's voice. This is also true of amplified live performances although to a lesser extent. Mics there are sometimes chosen for their reliability and ruggedness. Take away the mic and sound system from any pop singer and you will be disappointed by the sound of their voice in a large venue. |
I think you misunderstand whazt i said in the OP, The whole isssues here is ~~modern studio engineers, did they get carried away with their gadgets,,a bit too far from the original voice~~. I spoke with my tech guy,on this Q, he says, alot of the voice mods really began in the early 80's. IOW all others before , voices were tweaked, slightly extended. DK's voice, though talented, can not hold up under *Unplugged sessions*. Here,you hear what i mean, Sure Patsy's voice has a amplification, which only lends more vol, thrust to her voice range,, But does not mask any weaknesses. = More organic, vs the modern engineered variety, = not all fake, but lets say, Not as real as we might think. Lets not get carried away in modern times, by modern gadgets. There was once a Golden Age of Singing. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iuZTk1hdpMs |
@mozartfan - give it up. Your post came across initially as an attack on DK. You havent done/said/written anything to defend your argument. As several have pointed out, microphones, venue, electronics, the sound engineer influence what we hear. If you dont like diana krall, just say so. I personally cant stand the stones. They are far from original and sound like someone is striking a cat's paws with a hammer. And that is on a good day! Would i use them as reference material? No! I would use something/someone i am more intimately familiar with in that i listen to a recording/selection/performance over and over and... Jessica by The Allman Brothers comes to mind. To make the sort of back handed attack as your OP does a disservice to all of us in here. You are better then that. |
It sounds like you finally have a system where you can hear the effects added to vocals, Mozartfan. You’ll probably start to notice this a lot in recordings, since many artists work with recording engineers who like to add flavor and keep things interesting. If this isn’t your thing, I suggest sticking to classical recordings where this isn’t done. I’m not sure what you’re moaning about exactly, but you don’t sound like someone very into enjoying music with all your complaining about how everyone is doing it wrong. Tell us your secrets or shut up. |
It sounds like you finally have a system where you can hear the effects added to vocals, Mozartfan. You’ll start to notice this with a lot in recordings, since many artists work with recording engineers who like to add flavor and keep things interesting. If this isn’t your thing, I suggest sticking to classical recordings where this isn’t done. I’m not sure what you’re moaning about exactly, but you don’t sound like someone very into enjoying music with all your complaining about how everyone is doing it wrong. Tell us your secret to authentic sound quality or stop whining and admit you don’t know what’s best, you just don’t like what many others do. |
As several have pointed out, microphones, venue, electronics, the sound engineer influence what we hear. If you dont like diana krall, just say so
Yeah I admit, some of my words might have been cheap shots at Diana Krall's talents , which is not right. Diana has beena super talent for many jazz/music fans world over. AS I got to thinking , my gripe has more to do with studio tech geeks taking liberties with new high tech gadgets. I mean , no doubt starting in the early 80's (according to my tech guy who says thats really when these mods/tweaks really began) , the tweaking on voice has gonea bit too far. Many of you here know what I am talking about. So aside from Diana Krall (Completely, taking Diana off the discussion) are the studio tech geeks guilty of something here.. Thats my Q. Should all voice manipulation gadets be banned, outlawed from any/every record, no matter what genre, Well rap is not music anyway, so that group is allowed freely to make whatever noise they wish. We are only concerned with real muisc, pop, jazz, folk. It is my belief we need to get back to pre electronic tweaks, and start all over. Unplugged. Yeah I know , how dull, boring. And btw the RS had onlya few good songs, all written by the creative and talented Brian Jones, , then again , drugs didn't hurt that process. To me drug induced music should be canceled. I never listen to rock any longer. So yeah, thats my beef, studio tech geeks gone wild with modern gadgets, giving us what is not really The Real Deal. I feel this is fair and balanced, and hard to argue against. I have no hidden agenda, the tech geeks are exposed. The studios have The Agenda, what sells, financial gains over art for art's sake. We need to get back to pure folk music, unfiltered,/ unplugged. |
I have 9 or 10 of her albums. I don’t listen to them as I once did. She can sing, and plays very good piano. Her best work was the 2001 blu ray of the Live In Paris concert. Great music, great musicians. I don’t get your beef against her. And she has been a top seller, while her concerts still sellout. What could be the problem with that? |
I dont even know if it is music.... It is only extraordinary powerful... Is it music? is it voice? I dont give a dam... Is it Billie Holiday? No.... But the power to convey emotions cannot be a mechanical process nor only talent.... Embodied genius perhaps? :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2XUrySbdUE |
@mozartfan, ’And btw the RS had onlya few good songs, all written by the creative and talented Brian Jones, , then again , drugs didn’t hurt that process. To me drug induced music should be canceled. I never listen to rock any longer.’ Agree with you about Brian Jones. Once he was kicked out the Stones lost a lot of texture to their sound and gradually became a good Rolling Stones tribute band. Can’t agree about the drugs though. Without pot and LSD the 1960s would have sounded entirely different. Lord knows what drugs the kids are all using today. ’Should all voice manipulation gadets be banned, outlawed from any/every record, no matter what genre,’ ’So yeah, thats my beef, studio tech geeks gone wild with modern gadgets, giving us what is not really The Real Deal.’ Partially agree. It would be nice to have more recordings with natural life-like recordings. However I’ve read that it’s the absolute norm to avoid flat recordings. At the very least a dose of compression is considered mandatory to any recording/radio TV broadcast. Cinema trailers often tend to overdose on it. It would appear also that many vocalists are insecure of their talents and specifically choose studios, producers, effects etc to get an idealised sounding version of themselves. One that they hope the public will buy into. In any case we’re now in the high speed social media age where the wish to improve upon nature is at its greatest. This human desire was probably was always there but now we have many means of enabling it. Image enhancement seems to be incredibly important today and thus the natural look / sound seems unsophisticated and decidedly out of fashion. |
One thing we know for sure is that Kraal's husband (Elvis Costello) doesn't rely on recording gimmicks to improve his voice
I had no idea they were married. Yes Elvis Costello vocals on his master hit record Burt Bacharach compliation back in early 2000ish, seems not to have much tweaking. and the live , seems even less so. |
Cinema trailers often tend to overdose on it.
Oh yeah no doubt, Disney Studios lods their movies with sound effects,, sucking kids in with unrealistic, fakeness, falseness, lie-ness, where kids can't tell whats reality and what is fantasy any longer. I hate Disney, its a destoryer of kids minds. Fake movies, fake sound effects. That fakeness rubs off on gentle minds |
concert. Great music, great musicians. I don’t get your beef against her. And she has been a top seller, while her concerts still sellout. What could be the problem with that? Diana ’s voice has been ~~commercialIZED~~, transformed by modern gadgets to get stardom/sales/contracts/profirts,, The Money Factor has become more impoartnt than the artist actual level of skills. Its what i have been saying in all my posts. Not sure why/how you missed my points so frequently stated so claerly, not hyped like some modern vocal artists. |
I believe some opera halls use microphones for some of the artists. It's a contentious issue.
I would not be surprised some mod sopranos have tweaking going on in recordings,, vs the old legendary sopranos real talents So yeah its possible going on in post 2000 opera recordings, productions. These mod recording engineers are slick,, they know how to pull it off w/o attracting much attention. Take Faith Hill, no denying she sings with passion, these rare gifts flow through her records,, but also you can hear some ~~amplification/extentions~~ which definetly transform her muisc into a more magical experience. So again its a 2 sided blade, True vocal fidelity vs a more enjoyable WOW experience that overwhelms the senses? I find faith Hill's records, acceptable, although if i heard her Unplugged at her peak,, what impressions would we walk away with? See what i am saying here. |
wow just cked Diana Krall is still performing,,, wow, Diana just barely pulled off vocals 20 yrs ago,, can she still do it now with 20 years added to your voice? Oh yeah, like New Orleans Jazz Fest here, where you get to hear old legends which croak their tunes like frogs, which before sang like Nightingales |
@mozartfan, This is a fascinating subject. No matter how far you go back into the earliest days of recording you invariably find the engineers looking for some way to enhance their recordings. Even those renowned Maria Callas recordings from the early 50s weren’t as honest as we’d like to think. Different venues, different microphones, different positions, different singing styles with miles and miles of tape used. Eventually the best takes were very carefully selected to finally create an album such as highly regarded Tosca recorded in Milan back in 1953. I’m getting the impression that vocal honesty and integrity were never the intention in recording. Only some kind of striving towards an imagined perfection as far as the vocalist’s talents and the technology of the time would allow. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tosca_(1953_EMI_recording) |
