*****"The women are all married to Uncle Sam". This statement is lower than whale feces; it blames the victim for the crime.*****
It's also, sadly, often true.
When the Government fulfills the role and esp the responsibilities normally reserved for the Male in a family unit, then that woman is married to the Government.
Not sure what 'crime' you are speaking of.
Cheers |
One last thing: Poverty is an important part of our economic system. It's the motivator. It's what makes Capitalism work. If no one had to fear being poor, I think the morning rush hour, would be a lot less rushed. Some European Countries are trying to eliminate poverty by Government action. The people of those countries are paying through the nose, and they still can't do it. In the U.K., that entire country depends on the Government to an amazing degree. Unbelievable !! The Bible says there will always be poor people. They trick is, to not be one of them. Make smart moves in life. Cheers good for your southern soul https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Tm6QEN7ABg |
While not wishing to be contrary, "all great music springs from social conditions" must be challenged! Bach's, for one, didn't. It sprung from his genius, and deep religious faith, neither of which do I consider a social condition. |
Beside "Albert King", who is my favorite, I like da wolfman, "Howlin Wolf", and my favorite tune by him is "Howlin For My Darlin". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0dkdtmQ9cxQRok, gals at the Juke Joint could really shake it up off "Killing Floor". (Juke Joints in Chicago were bigger than the one's in the Delta) I didn't know we liked the same "Wolfman" until I posted. Enjoy the music. |
Mapman, you are a wise man. One of the worst things about Jazz and blues, is that the early recordings are so bad. Some people can listen thru the noise, I am not one of them. :( I have a lot of the early guys, Robert Johnson, Bessie Smith etc..., but seldom listen to them.
Question is, can there be Blues, other than the originals. Folks can play / cover blues songs, but that don't make it the Blues.
Cheers |
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Where have all the Bachs gone.....
I suspect they are out there but lost in the confusing swirl of modern social conditions.
Like most things social conditions were much simpler back in Bach's day. Progress, I suppose? |
*****While not wishing to be contrary, "all great music springs from social conditions" must be challenged! Bach's, for one, didn't. It sprung from his genius, and deep religious faith, neither of which do I consider a social condition.*****
Social condition does not have to mean anything negative. It can, but it does not have to. Bach sprang from a religious background. Maybe even an musical academic background. Those are social conditions. His environment.
Had Bach been born in a forest and raised by nomadic gypsies, hmmmmmmmm. no Brandenburg Concertos for sure.
Cheers |
*****I learned a lot about the people of Mississippi from reading "Eudora Welty" and Faulkner******
I learned a lot about the people of Mississippi from being born and raised there.
I assume you are joking about Faulkner and Welty. Those people wrote fiction. Both had their own agenda.
Cheers |
Of course J.S.'s music was greatly influenced by his family environment, academic education, and faith, but are those considered "social conditions"? That's a rather broad definition---might as well say it springs from being alive! It also minimizes and trivializes the role the individual plays in the creation of his music. There are instances of two different people having very similar backgrounds, having grown up in the same neighborhood, gone to the same school, church, etc, whose music's are very different from one another's. Sure environment influences a musician's creations, but his music springs from his need to create, above all. Perhaps it's just semantics, ay?
One artist who sang not only Jazz, but also Jump Blues and Rock n' Roll, was Big Joe Turner. He's my favorite Blues shouter of them all, whom I feel fortunate to have seen/heard live in the 90's, backed by The Blasters. In the band at the time was Lee Allen, sax player on many classic recordings by Little Richard, Fats Domino, and many other early Rock n' Rollers. Fantastic show! |
*****Of course J.S.'s music was greatly influenced by his family environment, academic education, and faith, but are those considered "social conditions"? ******
Yes. There may have been other people with his 'genius', just born under the wrong Social Conditions. Wrong side of the tracks.
*****might as well say it springs from being alive! *****
Exactly. Being alive and being in the right time/place and conditions. If Elvis had been born in Montana instead of Mississippi, would we have ever known of him. I doubt it. Probably not too much Blues and Gospel on the Radio in Montana in the 50's. Or the 15's :)
*****It also minimizes and trivializes the role the individual plays in the creation of his music.******
We were speaking of an entire genre of music, not an individual. Some Blues players were considered great and they were successful, others were great and died in obscurity. Many more should not have quit their day jobs. We are speaking of the conditions that contributed to, or gave birth to the genre called Blues.
I wonder how far Bach's 'genius' reaches beyond the Western world. I love his music, but if I had been born in Indonesia, maybe not so much.
Cheers |
Acman, Charenee Wade's offering the music of Gil Scott Heron, and Brian Jackson is a very sensitive work of art. When I consider the source of the comment that Gil Scott Herron sucks, that's a testament to the authenticity of this work. Gil Scott Heron is described as a "Jazz Poet", and Charenee Wade's vocals capture the musical aspects of his work, while his words capture the struggles of people living in the city on the lower economic level, and they do this with a delicate sensitivity. On "Peace Go With You Brother" it's about people who have been so close to him, that they feel the right to criticize. Instead of him saying, "get out of my face and my business" as he would have done in the past, he makes the soft statement "Peace Go With You Brother", there's no point in arguing. This album is a complete work of art, in other word each individual cut is a part of one unified work that makes a statement about trying to find peace, and at the same time survive in the inner city without violence, and continue the struggle for human rights; that's a tall order. Charenee and her musicians project a soft beauty that I could listen to all night long. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZ34PlV_K4UI chose this one to give an example of the soft beauty. Enjoy the music. |
Born in Indonesia=not so much love of Bach? I can in no way relate to Asian music (it's scales sounding "foreign" to me is definitely a result of cultural, if not societal, conditioning), but the guys at Sony sure like Beethoven! Being able to fit the playing time of his 9th Symphony onto a single disc played a role in the development of the Redbook CD. |
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Bdp24:
I have read before about the playing time of the CD and LvB's 9th. Another reason I love the CD. No more change-overs during long classical pieces.
It's my understanding that the Japanese go gaga over the 9thSymphony. I can understand why, having about 20 performances of it myself.
Cheers |
*****while his words capture the struggles of people living in the city on the lower economic level, and they do this with a delicate sensitivity. ****
The CD, THE LAST POETS, by a group of the same name, captures all one needs to know about lower economic people in the city. With delicate sensitivity??? That would a big fat NO!! ahahahaha
The Last Poets are not for the true believers or the PC crowd. Truth spoken there. The unvarnished kind!!
Cheers |
I too love the CD, Rok2id. Can you imagine having to suffer through listening to a long piece spread over multiple 78's?! When I was young and still living with the parents, I would fall asleep every night with Koss Pro-4AA phones on my head, waking up with the sound of the Shure M91e cartridge in my AR arm thump, thump, thumping away, bouncing off the LP's paper label. Now I put a CD in the drawer, and no worries. No more sweaty, sore ears, either! |
First and foremost, this thread is titled "Jazz For Aficionados"; it don't say nothing about "Blues For Aficionados". I'm putting this trolley back on the right track. We'll begin with "Jazz Impressions of Eurasia", this man was far ahead of time, "Mr. Dave Brubeck" I'm talking about. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qNlHh4FiZoEnjoy the music. |
10-06-15: Orpheus10
*****Da Blues! "Let's cover Da Blues". *****
*****First and foremost, this thread is titled "Jazz For Aficionados"; it don't say nothing about "Blues For Aficionados". *****
You can't say our OP is not consistent.
Cheers. |
It don't take much of Da Blues for me to git Da Blues, and when that happens I have to git back to jazz. By the way, I had a birthday in September, I am now two days older than black pepper; when you get my age you forget what you said two days ago, "So What"!
Enjoy the music.
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"Calcutta Blues"
Proto --Take Five.
Cheers |
Bdp24:
I remember the first time I saw/heard a CD being played. It was in the mid-80's at the PX in Nuremberg, Germany. The Sony Representative was demonstrating the player. The remote control functions blew me away. I remember saying quietly, "thank You Lord".
No more clicks and pops. No more ritual to 'prepare' a record for play. It was amazing how much STUFF you needed just to play and maintain a record.
All now in my garage. Along with my once loved/prized Thorens.
Sometimes progress is actually better.
Cheers |
UT 24 --- OU 17
how bout them horns!!!!!!
hook'em
Cheers |
Happy Birthday O-10! 😎 |
"Pepper Adams Plays Mingus", this is really boss. As you would expect, you won't get anything radically different from the original Mingus, but you will get something much "deeper" into the original Mingus; I know that sounds incredible, maybe even unbelievable, but true according to my ears. Alto Saxophone [Alto Sax] – Charles McPherson (tracks: 5, 7, 8) Baritone Saxophone [Baritone Sax] – Pepper Adams Bass – Bob Cranshaw (tracks: 5, 7, 8), Paul Chambers (3) (tracks: 1 to 4, 6, 9) Composed By [All Compositions By] – Charlie Mingus* Drums – Danny Richmond* Other [Essay By] – Alston Anderson, Mike Baillie Performer – Pepper Adams Octet (tracks: 5, 7, 8), Pepper Adams Quintet (tracks: 1 to 4, 6, 9) Piano – Hank Jones Reissue Producer – Jordi Pujol Tenor Saxophone [Tenor Sax] – Zoot Sims (tracks: 5, 7, 8) Trombone – Bennie Powell* (tracks: 5, 7, 8) Trumpet – Thad Jones When all of these musicians who have played with and been close to Mingus, go into his mind on these composition we get something that's "deeper" than the original. As a fan from the beginning, and someone whose heard the originals a "gozillion" times, I feel qualified to say this. "Haitian Fight Song" has "Pithecanthropus Erectus" morphed into it. I'm going to put them both on display for your comparison. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIu87qCZnJ4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkcHSgfDdkIWhen you compare the two, you'll see where I'm coming from. Those musicians were unaware of the elements of "Pithecanthropus Erectus" they had incorporated into "Haitian Fight Song". Enjoy the music. |
Frogman, I gave your post on Tom Harrell a long review, I don't know what happened to it, but now I have to do it over again.
Enjoy the music.
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Frogman, on "Moon Alley", by Tom Harrell; this has the same feel as Herbie Hancock's "Maiden Voyage", but with much better sonics and recording quality; I like it.
The title of the tune "Moon Alley"; are we in an alley to the moon, is the alley just brightly lit by moonlight; when I combine "Maiden Voyage" and "Moon Alley", we're on a Maiden Voyage in an alley that takes us to the moon; got to use your imagination.
Enjoy the music.
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Going to see Tom Harrell this week at the Vanguard..."These Rooms" with him and Jim Hall is a wonderful album.
And speaking of trumpet - just listening to Dusko Gojkovic "Trumpets & Rhythm Unit...fantastic. He's relatively new to me...really enjoying him. |
Mdemaio, I first became aware of Dusko Gojkovic from his work in the trumpet section of Maynard Ferguson's big band. A Serbian national he is a very nice player with a lovely melodic sense and an affinity for Brazilian rhythms. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jl5m_3HIBa0Enjoy the Tom Harrell set at the Vanguard. I am planning on being there over the weekend. My favorite place to hear jazz and one every jazz lover should make a point of visiting at some point; great vibe. |
Thanks so much for the link Frogman. Just love Gojkovic's tone & willingness to experiment. I find myself gravitating toward Europeans in general lately in my listening...just recently got hooked on Borje Fredriksson and Jonas Kullhammar after a trip to Stockholm/Copenhagen this summer. Great stuff...so much to explore!
Thanks again,
Matt |
Rok, you didn't comment on "Pepper Adams Plays Mingus". This music is for "very serious" fans of Charles Mingus. While it's fundamentally the same, when you "Pontificate" each and every note, it's not. Since I'm going to Pontificate each and every note, I must have it.
Enjoy the music.
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*****comment on "Pepper Adams Plays Mingus". This music is for "very serious" fans of Charles Mingus*****
Now we have, Pepper Adams meets the Rhythm Section??
It was very good. Listening to them back to back, put me into sensory overload. Aural memory is very fleeting. Esp if you don't know what 'nuts and bolts' to listen for.
I did Google and Wiki Adams. He had a very big time career. Played with the top people, which makes him one of the top people. I really wanted to find out why he, or anyone else for that matter, would choose to play the baritone sax. He went through everything from the trombone to the clarinet, and ended with the baritone.
I assume the Baritone is a lot harder to play, and carry around, without any benefit that I can see.
He, and the others, played with Mingus on many dates, so this was sort of like 'Mingus Minus Mingus'. But I enjoyed it. The Mingus clip was more brooding.
Cheers |
Recent purchases: Jazz at Lincoln Center Orchestra -- LIVE IN CUBA Excellent Big Band Record. It's a 2-CD set, which was a nice Surprise. Not as much 'Latin' as I was expecting, but, I guess the objective was to showcase different music for the folks. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Cn9bGFd13cIf "Marsalis and Clapton Play the Blues" was Pops and Oliver, then " Live in Cuba" is Ellington and Basie. Cheers |
Peter Tosh -- EQUAL RIGHTS
Typical Afro-based Third World Claptrap. The music is infectious as a lot of this stuff is, but the lyrics are starting to sound a little silly and tiresome.
On the cover he strikes his 'Che' pose. Stuck in another time.
Cheers |
Marsalis and Clapton Play The Blues DVD+CD
I had to have the DVD. Glad I got it. I knew this band had pedigree.
One of the few, Perfect, CDs I own.
Cheers |
"Mingus Minus Mingus", didn't think about it, but that's exactly what this was. His music can be played and heard on a deeper level; I know that sounds trite, but there is nothing shallow about Mingus's music. On the second clip, he was just as much into anthropology, as he was music; that would be brooding.
Mingus was a deep and heavy thinker who expressed his thoughts. "Can you imagine him and Miles stuck in a car from New York to LA, with Mingus rapping, and Miles unable to put two sentences together before giving out".
Enjoy the music.
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*****Mingus was a deep and heavy thinker who expressed his thoughts.*****
I agree. I would add ANGRY to the list. Not someone to trifle with. I think he was very disappointed in mankind.
*****Can you imagine him and Miles stuck in a car from New York to LA, with Mingus rapping, and Miles unable to put two sentences together before giving out". ******
I can imagine Miles being found in a shallow grave, in the desert outside Vegas. :)
Cheers |
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*****Speaking of baritone sax, here are couple of albums that I like, perhaps they are not mentioned before...*****
All the clips were very nicely done. The Randy Weston / Cecil Payne was just a tad too laid back for my taste. I would have liked a little more dynamics. Their clips were better suited for listening while doing something else. But, well played. Love Weston. I have a lot of his stuff.
If Leo Parker was not famous, he sure deserved to be more well known. I am sure there are plenty of noise-makers that are more famous. At least he rated a RvG production.
I am not familiar with Serge Chaloff, but it was a nice piece of music.
I wonder if playing the baritone limits a player's solos in any way? Would it be like Miles on Tuba?? :)
Thanks for the post.
Cheers |
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Serge Chaloff's music and playing deserves to be mentioned more, like so many forgoten jazz names. Hopefully more people might here it and lake it. Here are couple of facts, together with few links. 'The best baritone saxophonist most listeners have never heard of, whose rather incredible talents combine Harry Carney's tone and Cecil Payne's vocabulary. Chaloff was born in Boston on November 24, 1923. His father was a pianist with the Boston Symphony Orchestra while his mother, Margaret, taught music at the Boston Conservatory of Music, over time educating an illustrious series of pianists including Keith Jarrett, Herbie Hancock, and Richard Twardzik. Chaloff himself studied piano and clarinet before teaching himself the baritone sax in emulation of Jack Washington and Harry Carney. Charlie Parker was also a monumental influence. Chaloff nevertheless remains best known for his stint with Woody Herman's Second Herd, which he joined in late 1946. Alongside tenors Stan Getz, Zoot Sims, and Herbie Stewart he vaulted to jazz immortality the following year via the Jimmy Giuffre composition "Four Brothers," a landmark recording extending each of the saxophonists a solo turn. In 1954, he signed to George Wein's Boston-based Storyville to cut The Fable of Mabel, recorded with local luminaries including alto saxophonist Charlie Mariano and trumpeter Herb Pomeroy, and a year later the label also issued his collaboration with altoist Boots Mussulli. After completing work on Boston Blow-Up!, a loose but impassioned Stan Kenton-produced date for Capitol, Chaloff relocated to Los Angeles, where in 1956 he assembled pianist Sonny Clark, bassist Leroy Vinnegar, and drummer Philly Joe Jones to record his masterpiece Blue Serge, a gripping, evocative set that ranks among the finest jazz recordings of its era. But by the time of its release Chaloff was confined to a wheelchair, partially paralyzed as the result of a spinal tumor. The cancer spread, and he died July 16, 1957, at the age of just 33.' https://youtu.be/Yxyx9U-8R_Ihttps://youtu.be/GSnSSeMHUI4https://youtu.be/FrgsundqISshttps://youtu.be/eZge-q63EQs |
Good to hear from you alex. Serge's music is "West Coast" all the way; somehow it sounds better in LA, that's because the West Coast has a different vibe. This music sounded a lot better to me in the 50's than it does now.
In order for this music to resonate, or sound it's best, I have to listen and go back to the time when it was hot. Now that I'm there, I recall seeing Serge's name a lot, it was when West Coast was hip. His music and name are bouncing around in my mind, when I put it altogether I'll get back to you.
Enjoy the music
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I put Serge Chaloff's "BLUE SERGE" in my cart on Amazon. The reviews were excellent, so I'll take a chance. He seems to have lived the stereotypical Jazz life, Drug addict etc....
The reviewers on Amazon did mention the Baritone as being difficult to play. One said, he could play it like a Tenor!
Thanks for the clips and info on Chaloff.
Cheers |
*****Here's something really different from "Grant Green*****
Truer words have never been written!! ::(
*****he could come from so many different directions that it boggles the mind,*****
Well, this is one direction he should not have come from. Never heard of the movie, but when you mentioned soundtrack I knew it was some of that "Blaxploitation" junk. Hollywood's saddest chapter.
Sorry, I just couldn't get pass the movie genre. So sad to see a Jazz great like Grant doing this sort of thing, but I guess it paid well.
The music, like the movies, is sterile and empty of feeling. The early 70's were a very mixed bag. Some Great stuff, but also a lot of Junk-Jazz. Many guys selling their names and reputations to get paid.
Cheers |
Rok, you got the same problem with this as I had with "Da Blues", I can't hear the music because so many other factors surrounding the music keep flooding my mind. "Blaxsploitation" was a very appropriate name for that music, and picture genre. I never saw nor wanted to see this movie, I only saw the record at a record sale, and I bought every record I saw by Grant Green, no matter what. Unlike Miles, I never sold a Grant Green record. I never saw, nor did I ever want to see this movie, but I liked the music independent of the movie. Now to answer another question and story about music. "I think this may have been that movie we discussed a long time ago", Learsfool. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OKQdp6iGUkThis story is in reference to this movie and music. It was in the winter of 59 that I got stranded, and a beautiful woman offered me shelter. I know you've seen enough movies to know what happens next. Well the scriptwriter really flubbed it on this movie because all I got was shelter, even though it was all night. She had every album Miles put out up until that time. I think her latest acquisition was "Jazz Track" which was the score for that movie. I liked everything she had by Miles except that, it was too dark and brooding, besides, I didn't see the movie. Fast forward to recently after I saw the movie; that's the best sound track I ever heard, life is strange. Enjoy the music |
Rok, you got the same problem with this as I had with "Da Blues", I can't hear the music because so many other factors surrounding the music keep flooding my mind. "Blaxsploitation" was a very appropriate name for that music, and picture genre. I never saw nor wanted to see this movie, I only saw the record at a record sale, and I bought every record I saw by Grant Green, no matter what. Unlike Miles, I never sold a Grant Green record. I never saw, nor did I ever want to see this movie, but I liked the music independent of the movie. Now to answer another question and story about music. "I think this may have been that movie we discussed a long time ago", Learsfool. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OKQdp6iGUkThis story is in reference to this movie and music. It was in the winter of 59 that I got stranded, and a beautiful woman offered me shelter. I know you've seen enough movies to know what happens next. Well the scriptwriter really flubbed it on this movie because all I got was shelter, even though it was all night. She had every album Miles put out up until that time. I think her latest acquisition was "Jazz Track" which was the score for that movie. I liked everything she had by Miles except that, it was too dark and brooding, besides I didn't see the movie. Fast forward to recently after I saw the movie; that's the best sound track I ever heard, life is strange. Enjoy the music |
*****Rok, you got the same problem with this as I had with "Da Blues", I can't hear the music because so many other factors surrounding the music keep flooding my mind.*****
Well the difference is, the blues is great music, the Green clips were not. Also, next time you start agonizing over conditions in the delta, check out a documentary titled "Harlan County, USA." It was shown tonight on Turner Classic Movies.
Places like West Virginia and Kentucky created it's own music because of local "conditions".
Makes the Delta look pretty good.
Cheers |
The baritone saxophone: Sounds (only) one octave lower than the alto saxophone. Contrary to what the Amazon "reviewers" may have written, it is not "harder" to play than the other, higher pitched saxophones. Yes, it is clearly more cumbersome to handle due to its size; but, in some respects it is actually easier to play. The size of the instrument demands a larger volume of air, but that very larger size makes it less resistant when one actually blows into it; especially the lowest range on the instrument which, by comparison, are much more resistant (require more effort from the player) on the higher pitched instruments. By extension, one would think the soprano saxophone is easier to play than the alto and tenor; but, this is definitely not the case, with the soprano putting huge demands on the player as far as playing certain notes in tune. This idea is a popular myth, and at the end of the day, no instrument (even across different families of instruments) is "harder" to play than another; they each bring very different challenges to the table. How and why a player chooses to play a particular saxophone as opposed to another has a lot to do with finding one's "voice". Often, a player, consciously or unconsciously, simply gravitates toward a certain frequency range (low, mid, high) as the one that best defines his "voice" as a player. Additionally, the sheer physical size of the player has a role in the process; a player very short in stature is unlikely to feel comfortable handling the larger instrument. Alex, thanks for the clips; I especially liked the Chaloff clips. He was a terrific player coming out of the "cool" school. I take exception, however, with the quoted reviewer's (another example of problems with "reviewers") characterization of Chaloff's sound as being like Harry Carney's. I don't think it is anything like Carney's. Carney had the quintessential baritone sound. His sound was huge and incredibly rich and one that would actually define, more than anything, the sound of the entire reed section in Ellington's band; an amazing thing when one thinks about it. He played with a fast constant vibrato which was fairly typical for pre-bebop style sensibility. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0OHdxOhUAaACarney was great stylist and unique voice. Chaloff's style was a product of the new direction that jazz was going in; towards a more advanced and sophisticated harmonic sense in improvisation. He was definitely influenced by Bird's bebop style, but with a leaning toward the "cool" of the West Coast sound as best exemplified by Gerry Mulligan. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7DCQVyD3whMI know there will be disagreement on this point, but I think the idea of the "forgotten player" or the player that "didn't get his due" is mainly overstated and often a myth. If we look at players' careers in the context of an evolving art form and changing times it's not difficult to understand why soem players become famous and some do not; or, more accurately, don't stand the test of time. Example: Leo Parker. Nice player, playing the baritone at a time when the music had evolved into hard-bop with its much more sophisticated harmonic language which placed many more demands on a player. Parker sounded good playing the relatively simple style of the easy and relaxed twelve bar blues. Compared to stalwarts like Pepper Adams, and on complex bebop harmonic changes, not so good. So, who then will stand the test of time and become (or deserve to be) "famous"? Not that players like Parker were not good players, but they had limitations as players and could not rise to the top in a climate where, not only was the music placing more and more artistic and virtuosic demands on players, but the BUSINESS of music was making it much more difficult for anyone (and their recordings) other than the very best to stay in the limelight. Pepper Adams was a giant who served as a model for the new crop of baritone saxophonists: Gary Smulyan: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IS2bezPSBh8Nick Brignola: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EfLE-0YDj34Ronnie Cuber: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1O7Q0iHms_ohttps://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2TVnF-QkE2E |
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The Frogman:
Thanks for the clarification on the Baritone Saxophone. I think the assumption was that if bigger, you have to blow harder, i.e. more air. But as you said, there is more to it than that.
As far as this being a popular myth, well, high-end audio and music is full of those.
Cheers |
