@frogman
"Porter" ? You mean, Potter?
Jazz for aficionados
Jazz for aficionados
I'm going to review records in my collection, and you'll be able to decide if they're worthy of your collection. These records are what I consider "must haves" for any jazz aficionado, and would be found in their collections. I wont review any record that's not on CD, nor will I review any record if the CD is markedly inferior. Fortunately, I only found 1 case where the CD was markedly inferior to the record.
Our first album is "Moanin" by Art Blakey and The Jazz Messengers. We have Lee Morgan , trumpet; Benney Golson, tenor sax; Bobby Timmons, piano; Jymie merrit, bass; Art Blakey, drums.
The title tune "Moanin" is by Bobby Timmons, it conveys the emotion of the title like no other tune I've ever heard, even better than any words could ever convey. This music pictures a person whose down to his last nickel, and all he can do is "moan".
"Along Came Betty" is a tune by Benny Golson, it reminds me of a Betty I once knew. She was gorgeous with a jazzy personality, and she moved smooth and easy, just like this tune. Somebody find me a time machine! Maybe you knew a Betty.
While the rest of the music is just fine, those are my favorite tunes. Why don't you share your, "must have" jazz albums with us.
Enjoy the music.
I'm going to review records in my collection, and you'll be able to decide if they're worthy of your collection. These records are what I consider "must haves" for any jazz aficionado, and would be found in their collections. I wont review any record that's not on CD, nor will I review any record if the CD is markedly inferior. Fortunately, I only found 1 case where the CD was markedly inferior to the record.
Our first album is "Moanin" by Art Blakey and The Jazz Messengers. We have Lee Morgan , trumpet; Benney Golson, tenor sax; Bobby Timmons, piano; Jymie merrit, bass; Art Blakey, drums.
The title tune "Moanin" is by Bobby Timmons, it conveys the emotion of the title like no other tune I've ever heard, even better than any words could ever convey. This music pictures a person whose down to his last nickel, and all he can do is "moan".
"Along Came Betty" is a tune by Benny Golson, it reminds me of a Betty I once knew. She was gorgeous with a jazzy personality, and she moved smooth and easy, just like this tune. Somebody find me a time machine! Maybe you knew a Betty.
While the rest of the music is just fine, those are my favorite tunes. Why don't you share your, "must have" jazz albums with us.
Enjoy the music.
30,873 responses Add your response
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@stuartk , Chris Potter is an amazing tenor saxophonist. A technical wizard who in recent times was bested in that department probably only by Michael Brecker. Amazing technician who is also very creative as a soloist. I like him very much. As you point out he “can certainly handle very slippery timing and harmonically ambiguous settings” (great comment, btw). However, I hope we can agree that not every player is great in every musical setting, even if they can “handle” each setting’s particular musical demands. When in settings established by an artist on the level of a Miles Davis, to be able to handle the demands is simply not enough. There has to be a compatible style and creative vision that causes “the whole to be greater than the sum of its parts”. Great leaders (Miles) demand that. Potter plays in a decidedly post-Coltrane style and like Brecker shows hints of a Jazz/Rock sensibility in his tone and inflections. He did play with Steely Dan for some time, after all. Personally, I think he owes quite a bit to Brecker, stylistically. He is very assertive. Some would say aggressive. While he has amazing command of the instrument, harmony and rhythm, as you point out, I don’t hear a lot of command or use of the abstract. Miles’ music during the Second Great Quintet period could be VERY abstract. Would he have been what Miles was looking for in a tenor player at that point in his career? I’m not so sure. A post-Coltrane sensibility is probably not what Miles was looking for at that point. For his later electric period? Much safer bet. I hope this explains my reasoning (just one man’s opinion). I love this: |
Thanks for your response. I'm always learning something new from your posts ! Perhaps my ear is simply not sufficiently acute to perceive the dominant "Jazz/Rock sensibility" you pick up on in Potter's playing. Or perhaps this is simply a result of my not having heard him in enough settings to form a more rounded opinion. As far as abstraction is concerned, it was not atypical for the Dave Holland Quintet (live at least) to venture "outside". The music could get fairly Free during such interludes. You might have disagreed with me had you been sitting in the venue but at such times, but what was played did not in my ears/brain, evoke associations or parallels with/to Jazz/Rock's harmonic language. More like Freed-up New Orleans style simultaneous improv. I now see I misunderstood your original comment. I didn't consider whether Miles would've found Potter's playing in synch with his vision at the time Shorter was enlisted. I'm sure you're right that Miles was not looking for a Coltrane disciple at that point. Finally, regarding the link, Shai Maestro's playing sounds quite Pop-influenced to me. That's not something that, to my ear, figures strongly in Dave Holland's compositions, so I wouldn't expect Potter to respond the same way. Having said that, I'm not a professional musician. No doubt there is much that is obvious to you that I miss!
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@stuartk , Thank you for your post. You are a very astute listener (I believe you are also a musician). Your posts make it obvious that you have very good ears and understanding of the music, so no apology necessary for your discernment. Quite the contrary. I always appreciate your posts as well. A couple of “fine tunings” to what I wrote previously. I did not at all say that Potter’s style has a “dominant Jazz/Rock sensibility”. I wrote “hints of a Jazz/Rock sensibility”. Btw, to have some Jazz/Rock sensibility is not a negative at all in my book. It is the reality of where the music went over the course of the last four or five decades. If one listens to Michael Brecker, broadly considered to be the greatest of the post-Coltrane tenor players one can hear a similarity in Potter’s tone and more subtly in his inflections. (Brecker, who was very prominent in the Jazz/Rock and Pop genres as well as mainstream Jazz was a huge influence on tenor players of the last five decades or so). As opposed to, for instance, Joe Lovano, a contemporary of both Brecker and Potter who has a decidedly different tone approach. Warmer and less aggressive and at times ethereal as opposed to the “horn about to split at the seams” tone approach that characterizes most post-Coltrane players. Early(ish) Brecker with the recently posted guitarist Jack Wilkins. This record was posted here a couple of years ago: https://youtu.be/WyqcP03Mj9s?si=DXk4HxfmSZz_PiB1
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Ah -- "hint of..." -- my mistake! Yes; I can definitely see how Lovano and Potter differ. This isn't the case regarding Potter and Brecker. I'm not disputing the parallels you draw, it's just that I haven't listened much to Brecker. I'm generally not a fan of whatever one calls electrified amalgamations of Jazz , Rock, Pop and Funk (as distinct from early "classic Fusion" ala Mahavishnu) and Brecker seems to have recorded an awful lot in that vein. I have heard a few examples of Brecker playing in straight ahead all-acoustic settings and while I admire his "iron" chops and intelligence, I don't find him particularly emotionally engaging. I'm aware that Potter has released some more commercial-sounding recordings but I haven't heard them. The recordings I have heard by him have not left me feeling emotionally unengaged. For one thing, he displays a lyrical bent at times that seems very different from what I've heard so far from Brecker. I know -- "Ignorance of the Jazz is no excuse" -- I shouldn't be so constrained by my tastes. Although they sound like quite different players to these ears, I'll take your word for it regarding Brecker's influence on Potter. |
Sad News.. R.I.P. Quincy Jones
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“Q” was one of a kind. Did you say “old school Jazz from the ‘50’s and ‘60’s? https://youtu.be/ldYen3sYVUc?si=VR9WOalPMY_Ctn6z https://youtube.com/playlist?list=PLBJenJIJrq0zehq8tKd8teZiOSjk2bBG2&si=sqOHv-LqUf-EP3MB A side of “Q” rarely mentioned: https://youtu.be/rnKZ_PEdXcc?si=1blHXiy7xuDG25zx
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«Well if I could play like Wynton, I wouldn’t play like Wynton.» Now reading this quote by Chet Baker about Wynton Marsallis, i imagine that each one of these 4 great musicians will say the same thing about each others... The reason for this is certainly expressed the best by the late Quincy Jones : « Excellence isn't an act, it's a habit
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is this jazz being improvisation or classical being scripted? https://x.com/Rainmaker1973/status/1853683665647124680
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This video is a bit contorted expression of a truth : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zrp-2JPSoYE One commentary under it give a gist of it : «The problem with modern jazz is that, to a considerable extent, it is being written and performed by college professors instead of drug addicts.»
I am myself not a musician and not competent to give my opinion. But i like the less virtuosity and i love the best expression. Also i listen more with my heart than with my brain. It is perhaps why i love Chet Baker and Bill evans so much... Or Armstrong and Miles Davis before some point in time. Also i like some european and Japan jazz...Paradoxically because it is a bit away from jazz roots...
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I am not a musician and i trust your knowledge because i know enough about you to think your opinion are way more musically informed than mine. Once this is said, I admire the artists above i quoted even if i prefer some to others. Virtuosity and expression goes always together in all great musician as the one i quoted above. But if some touch us more than others there must be a reason , the encounter of my subjectivity with a specific style mixing expressivity in some way with some aspects of virtuosity is the cause. When we interrogate ourselves about our taste we learn less about music than about ourselves for sure... I tried many suggestions of people here as yours and thanks to all i discovered many great i did not knew . This thread is very important for me ... Jazz is a tree way bigger now than his roots, which it cannot quit save at the price of dying but the canopy is so rich than i am fascinated by his exploration especially in European jazz... My best to all and thanks to everyone suggestions and remarks... |
Taste is a construction by our living body/brain/ears conditioned by internal physiology as well as by society and also our own independant spirit history. Knowing my taste is knowing my limitations.Not only my strenght. In music taste must be educated by us and others.. I come here to be educated in jazz by many who know better than me and more and spoke well about it..."Tastes" of people as flying insects can cross one another and fertilize or inseminate us all if we are compatible kind for sure.. We all for example recognize Frogman as a well informed person about music in general and jazz in particular. A fertilizer...Or a seeder... I will stop my metaphors here... ;)
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I forgot to say that music in his effects on living creatures as well as sound is an objective event not a mere subjective one. Then our taste did not express a mere contingent free will as a choice but also reflect something about us even in our physiological reaction that constrain the choice... Then taste is a complex concept. Music is more than leisure activity ...It is a deep working probe in the ocean/atmosphere we are as body/soul. Taste is the reflecting peak of a huge unknown iceberg.
I forget to spoke here about the mechanization of the soul by social control acting on our taste...But it exist too ... |
I’m not sure I grasp what you mean, here. You’re suggesting there’s an unconscious somatic shrinking away from or filtering elements out of that which we’re hearing at the same time we’re consciously embracing it. . . or ???
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No, i simply suggest that our "taste" in music comes from many direction : social,family, individual potential but also our own general physiology.. Sound and music did not have the same effect on individuals and on cultures... We are free individually and collectively to express ourselves with some chosen set of scale,timbre,rythm etc but because we adopt some timbre,rythm,scale etc we also program ourselves in some ways instead of others... Then it is useful to deprogram ourselves exploring jazz if we are only in classical or exploring world music if we are in folk or pop etc... But because music is universal grounded in timbre evaluation and rythm it affect the body in consistent way...Then learning the reasons behind our own acquired tastes when we explore what may not appear as immediately so pleasing in others musical genres alien to us can makes us able to go deeper in our own internal mechanism. Musicians know this instinctively and they easily explore all music genres across styles and cultures, spontaneously, because the way the body perceive and evaluate sounds is universal...
it is better explained in these 2 articles : Here : «The tone and tuning of musical instruments has the power to manipulate our appreciation of harmony, new research shows. The findings challenge centuries of Western music theory and encourage greater experimentation with instruments from different cultures.» https://phys.org/news/2024-02-pythagoras-wrong-universal-musical-harmonies.html
And Here : «The research also dismantled the notion that music’s impact is purely subjective or culturally relative. Instead, it underscored the existence of cross-cultural, shared links between musical features, bodily sensations, and emotions.» «We conclude that music induces consistent bodily sensations and emotions across the studied Western and East Asian cultures. These subjective feelings were similarly associated with acoustic and structural features of music in both cultures. These results demonstrate similar embodiment of music-induced emotions in geographically distant cultures and suggest that music-induced emotions transcend cultural boundaries due to cross-culturally shared emotional connotations of specific musical cues. We argue that bodily experience, which may arise from skeletomuscular activity and changes in the physiological state of the body, plays a critical role in the elicitation and differentiation of music-induced emotions.» |
To be clear and simple... When i was young i listened spontaneously to choral music before Bach not much to everything else, save also Bach...( i ignored all pop music in my teens save few exceptions for sure ) I was "snob" and ignorant in musical matter...
With time i learned to appreciate modern classical instrumental music then i go slowly to Indian and Persian music and after that i was ready for jazz, but i listen jazz intensively only since the last decade ... I came here and discover great advices... We all must grow out of our "natural innate taste" and even out of our acquired taste to grow musically and learn... My strong taste for choral music is still with me but i felt richer if i can appreciate a great musician from the American or European jazz ... or a Sitarist or master of tanbur...Or African percussion like the Yoruba talking drums which is a pure marvel to hear because it is so refined that it make us ectatic... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4oQJZ2TEVI&t=28s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZOg4xIiulw&t=949s By the way the best book i read on acoustics perception of music is written by a master of Yoruba drum ...
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Had been a while since I listened to this favorite record. Tony Bennett was so much more than just a “crooner”. In his prime he was an amazing singer who projected an incredible amount of joy of singing. Even if this genre is not one’s thing, the great artistry is impossible to miss. Awesome orchestra. https://youtu.be/dzyCeul1Hvk?si=yON315vAvPUWS93R https://youtu.be/YJtbT10GN48?si=MrJanQ6CCeZqVEhX https://youtu.be/vrcBo2RE5lU?si=CTgl1WQJyteptv2D Same song with a rested voice: https://youtu.be/5dCcGorrT0Q?si=BHd3w4YzRbJcRoMl
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Another version: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxEs-dcc8yk To me, Tony Bennett's version sounds almost "operatic" by comparison. |
I hope you are not suggesting that there is something wrong with “operatic”? IMO, the song does not work as well with “jazzy” inflections. Sheila Jordan’s version has an element of sultriness that I feel is completely inappropriate for the story behind the song. Moreover, the rendition sounds belabored. It’s hardest to sing (and play) really slow tempi. I do like Jordan, but not this song choice. |
Different strokes. I happen to enjoy the "Jazzy" inflections. It would never occur to me to describe Jordan’s interpretation as "sultry". To my ears, there is certainly a bluesy, "earthy" quality to her interpretation but I specifically associate the term "sultry" with a quality of teasing sexuality (unless of course we are talking about hot, humid weather). If this seductive quality is present in Jordan's performance, I don't perceive it. Bennett's vocals display, to my ear, a sort of "larger than life" drama I associate with the stage-- be it opera or Broadway musicals-- that's simply not my cup of tea.
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Didn’t realize I’d already posted -- I thought I was still in editing mode, but no matter. I guess, what it boils down to is, I don’t find Bennett’s (as I perceive it) highly theatrical tone any more "childlike" than Jordan’s earthy tone. Perhaps if the Bennet arrangement were less grandiose, I might conclude otherwise. Needless to say, it's subjective. I agree with @mahgister when he says "We all for example recognize Frogman as a well informed person about music in general and jazz in particular" and appreciate your willingness to engage with us, here. |
I understand it’s not your cup of tea, Stuart. The song “Lost In The Stars” was, in fact, written by the great Kurt Weill for a Broadway musical. One of the beauties of music is that it affects us all differently. Personally, while I certainly enjoy certain genres more than others, there is no genre at all that I “dislike”. This is why I wrote: “Even if this genre is not one’s thing, the great artistry is impossible to miss.”. For me, Bennett’s artistry and expressivity are pretty amazing. As you say, much of this is subjective, but I would not characterize those arrangements as grandiose at all, but lush and tasteful……for the genre. I feel that there is great value as music lovers to not put up boundaries based on genre, but rather always stay open, at least to some degree, to sheer musical excellence; independent of genre and even what our “tastes” are at any particular point. As was discussed between you and mahgister a few posts prior this is something that changes and evolves. Cheers. Another version that some might call sublime (I still prefer Bennett’s): https://youtu.be/_Gt9TUOMhUs?si=NlNw-I3tvImu2UgX And one that makes me wonder “what was he thinking?! “. Very interesting string writing/arrangement and horrible vocals: https://youtu.be/orMCgDSfxQs?si=esX_qmGQRJwFlfch
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Enjoyed the Bennet! Thanks. I do forget he was a baddass. I think I actually remembered him for his longevity instead of what he did in his prime. Thanks Again.
Right on key, as if on demand, a new Miles bootleg recording. I can't get get YouTube to work for some reason. Miles Bootleg 8 with George Coleman.
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Just a short documentary: WHO KILLED JAZZ - Award Winning Short Film - Director Ben Makinenhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMC442DYlC4
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Anybody pony up for the physical media of Miles Davis Bootleg Series Vol8? Released couple days ago. Supposed to be remastered by Sony. I realized there are previous releases in various packages but just wondering how these releases SQ compares to the previous after a SONY massage. I got it going now from Qobuz at 44/24 and being upsampled to 192 or 196 can’t remember what my DAC actually does. Tony Williams every little touch is present and Carter right there to. |
