@ghosthouse In my haste to rant, I failed to mention that I found the Alboran Trio piece to be enjoyable to my ears. I don't know if they have a track record or not, because I have never heard of them. And you are correct in saying they were Italians playing Jazz in Italy. I guess there is bound to reflect Italian sensibilities in the music. However, The Frogman's first Law will always apply. The Marketplace is brutal. I hope your curiosity concerning Rampal and Siegel does not lead you to spend money to satisfy it. My excuse was that we didn't have you-tube at that time. The Mayall piece was run of the mill. In Blues, it's the legitimacy of the singer and the lyrics. That's the hardest part for the Rockers to get.
Cheers |
Well, now I know what the "traditionalists" think...at least one of them.
Appreciate you sharing your thoughts, Rok, Can't say I'm surprised. Can't say I agree entirely. Ultimately, it doesn't matter. I will still enjoy the Meltemi recording whatever music type it's considered. Although I continue to think it IS jazz. Jazz written and recorded by Italian musicians in Italy. That's all I meant by "Italian Jazz". I do readily admit Mayall's Jazz Blues Fusion doesn't seem all that "jazzy" to me. I only brought that one up because Blue Mitchell is on it.
This whole "It's Jazz/It's NOT Jazz" discussion has been done to death in this thread. Much rather talk about the music. For starters what do you like or not like about that Meltemi recording? What about it does or doesn't fit Wynton's view (or yours) of jazz?? Myself, I'm now curious about that Corky Siegel or Jean Rampal. What's so bad about 'em? (although on the latter, I got a feeling I will probably feel the same way were I to hear it).
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If you have to put an adjective in front or behind the word ’Jazz’, there might be a problem. If it’s "Jazz Blues Fusion", you KNOW there is a problem.
I speak from experience. Traditionalist are not born, they are created by personal experience. Believe it or not, I paid good / real money for the CD "Corky Siegel Plays the Blues". I was deceived by the word ’blues’. I also paid for the Jean Rampal LP. You would be surprised at the junk on my shelves as a result of trying to be ’progressive’, or ’avant-garde’.
We don’t go to the MET to hear the "American" Tosca. We go to hear the Opera ’Tosca’, in Italian! Same with Jazz. I don’t understand what the term ’Italian Jazz’ means. Is there a polish Jazz? Or heaven forbid, Croatian Jazz? Jazz is Jazz. And it’s a lot more than just improvised music. And it’s American.
Cheers |
@alexatpos
Don’t know if "Italian Jazz" would warrant a new topic but this Meltemi recording has certainly got my attention. (This Italian digs it.) Not sure what the "traditionalists" will think, however. |
My Blue Michell (as a leader) picks.... 'Out of the Blue', from 1959. with Golson and Kelly https://youtu.be/cPilE8TeGu4'Blue's moods' from 1960. https://youtu.be/6026xPnrl7IBelieve it or not, but the Italians 'dig' jazz and have great scene,together with some established artists. Maybe a new topic? |
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When I think of Blue Mitchel, I think of Horace Silver; that might be the only Blue Mitchel, I have, but it's boss.
What you submitted sure sounds good, him and Junior Cook have been blowing together for so long they can read one another's musical mind.
Blue Mitchell - trumpet
Junior Cook - tenor saxophone
Chick Corea - piano
Gene Taylor - bass
Al Foster - drums
That's another album I'll have to put on my order list.
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I'm concerned about homelessness today; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFcSVOU1CRMI once worked (without pay) for the homeless in my city; that was in the 80's when the problem was no where near what it is today. The vast majority suffered from mental problems, or they were winos. Very few of what you would call average normal people were homeless. One woman who had a degree that commanded a high salary wound up homeless as a result of health problems. There was no way she was ever going to get hired if she put on her application that she lived in a homeless shelter; we had to give her a new place to live. We devised a plan (the head of this shelter was very influential); we gave this lady a phone number (thanks to the phone company) that would give her address as the ritzy suburbs. That number rang at the shelter; which means she also had an answering service. Since she was healthy when we devised this plan, in no time at all she was back at work earning the high salary she was qualified for. Had we not devised that plan, the woman could still be homeless, and gone wacky in the head; the two go together. |
“Suite For Flute and Jazz Piano” with the great flutist Jean Pierre Rampal. ***** That was the most forgettable music I ever heard; I have the CD, but I don't know where it is. Some reviewer wrote that you had to work in order to hear the "new jazz". I could have responded, "I'm retired, and I would only work if I got paid, now if you are willing to mail me some new jazz along with a check for listening, I would gladly oblige". This new music is like the present generation, "It's confused"; however, there are some outstanding talents, and Liz Wright is one of them. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7hxVXFNks40 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqgocq64mwg |
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*****The best known of these was his “Suite For Flute and Jazz Piano” with the great flutist Jean Pierre Rampal. *****
I have that on LP. Didn't make the cut to CD. I don't even remember the music. cheers |
Glad you liked it. I also think it is outstanding. Peterson was a remarkable musician and a true gentleman. As articulate and interesting with his spoken comments as he was in his playing. I don’t think the Bach comment was in reference to MJQ. Previn says “the fellow” and I’m pretty sure he was referring to Claude Bolling who had a series of records on which he played Classical with a jazz rhythm section. The best known of these was his “Suite For Flute and Jazz Piano” with the great flutist Jean Pierre Rampal.
Pleasant enough music and fun depending on one’s mood, but as Previn said “neither here nor there”.
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I had no idea Previn was German born. That sort of explains the Anne-Sophie Mutter thing.
Cheers |
Oscar Peterson Interview: Outstanding!!! Very informative, and above all, interesting. You will never see anything like that, and that long, about Jazz / Jazz players on American TV.
When Previn made the comment about someone playing BACH with a rhythm section, was he speaking of MJQ? I have 'Blues on Bach', which is a lot more blues than Bach. I have the 'Solo Masterpieces' 7CD set by Art Tatum. Not my favorite pianist, but they seem to think very highly of him and his place in Jazz And they should know. In my mind I always put him in the same place as Bird and Dizzy, too many notes and too fast. I will have to revisit him. Not once did he ask Peterson to comment on another player. I liked that. Most often this 'interviews' are just opportunities to fish for compliments for some up and coming player or a peer. Thanks to The Frogman. Cheers BTW, Previn did slight the blues once in his comments. I would say his playing could use a little more Blues.
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Pryso, I only remember early purchases because I was in the Air Force, and each new album was an event that we shared with other airmen; consequently, I remember the party surrounding the reviewing of the album. (any event was an excuse for a party). But more current albums, I only have a vague idea when I purchased them, the same as you. Getz's "Focus" is his most interesting album; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXxybiV4Pxs&list=PLfOleD7-7Oj90W890D0puroQgM7yTR-0P |
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o10, yes it would be fascinating to compare our respective jazz collections. However, I'm not into computers enough that I have an inventory list to share.
But you struck again. I also had that "Like Young" album. Now if you remember my comments not too long ago you'll know I'm not a fan of string backgrounds for jazz, Getz's "Focus" being one exception. So I didn't keep that particular Previn album. I still have 4 or 5 of his trio albums however.
My greatest amazement is that you can remember buying "My Fair Lady" in the fall of '59. As I commented recently on an audio site, I can't remember where or when I purchased hardly any of my music collection. That has been spread out over several decades, in three separate metropolitan areas, with purchases from record stores, department stores, audio stores, audio shows, record clubs, swap meets, yard sales, on line, and having friends and family give them to me. I know I've owned "Kind of Blue" since around 1960 for example. But if that was '59 or '60 or '61 I really can't say. It may have come from the Columbia Record Club, but I'm not certain. So I admire all of you with better memories. ;^)
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Pryso, I told you we had the same collection; I bought "My Fair Lady" in the Fall of 59. You guys are really submitting some beautiful music; I gave it "the once over" to confirm that, but I'm going to settle back and savor every last note later on. Rok, who can ever forget Sergio Mendes and Brazil 66; absolutely fantastic! Acman, that Previn was most tasteful, one of my favorites; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CwEuR2TtW5c Rok, that Lester Young with the Oscar Peterson Trio, is one that I will have to get. |
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Catching up with the rest of you again. And glad to be back on track with the OP -- jazz. Let me offer this as a possibly surprising and under appreciated jazz musician, Andre Previn. I say that knowing his "My Fair Lady" album was alleged to be the top selling jazz record for some period of time. But after that died off, almost no mention again. He focused on Broadway show tunes with several albums devoted to individual shows. Of course it helped that he was accompanied by top flight musicians. To me he was certainly more than a classical conductor. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNBy1fxdZjEhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RCSQlmUnMFsRegarding Romero, know it started with Celedonio, then his three sons, and are now into the third generation. (Yes I know not jazz, I'm just replying to earlier comments.) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrJWS8YLhwEAs for Satie, I doubt I'm the only one initially exposed to his music by Blood, Sweat, and Tears - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6f_uj6qCFMRegarding QJ, possibly his greatest talent was surrounding himself with first rate players, whether on his own recordings or as a producer? |
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I'm almost afraid to mention Quincy Jones music because of the controversy, but his music is undeniably good, even if his mental state is questionable. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T6A3qT8_vWgThis is one boss jam, and I don't think it's in my collection, but it will be. Quincy has been a part of so much fantastic music; I prefer we focus on the music and leave the controversy for others. Do you have any of Quincy's music you would like to share? By the way I'll search for the albums that are in my collection. |
I had trouble finding Fats Navarro when I was looking, it seems you've struck gold.
Mingus wrote a lot about "Theodore Navarro" in his autobiography.
That music and "Fats" really capture the essence of that time; this music is like a time machine that takes you back to another day when "Bop" was cool.
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Yes Frogman, right from the opening notes you can tell he is a true Spanish guitar master; I'll have to check out more of his works.
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Today's Listen: Fats Navarro -- THE FATS NAVARRO STORY I love this guy. He is sort of like Dizzy with a much better tone. This was during the change-over period. He was dead at age 26. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0mdt9heAoc4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWOmgV1Ppfw A 4CD set. It just may contain everything Fats ever did. Highly recommended. Seems as if All the future stars of Jazz appear at least once. 87 tunes in total.
Cheers
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Hmmm mk2 what? The first link of Santana that Orpheus listed was ’soft’ in comparison to my hard rock listing (if i do not count Beatles). Soft does not mean less good but means less hard, you wise guy.
p.s.
As the answer that you 'requested':
There is nothing wrong with my listing of rock. If you think that you know better, just check Frogman’s post about it. You obviously skipped it. |
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Santana's "Black Magic Woman" to go with black lights that made ladies stockings glow in the dark, and hot pink was my favorite color; those were the days. "The Prisoner" by Art Pepper, was most certainly one of his best. This is my first time hearing Erik Satie: Gnossienne; it sounds a little like "Marche Slave" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YwqdOhF6LhEIn regard to music "resonating", it depends on the time of day, the weather, the humidity plus more factors than I am aware of; what I'm saying is I can like something one day and not like it the next; the last two fall in that category. |
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Pryso, you
have noticed it well, Child in time from Deep Purple borders with heavy metal. I
haven't thought about this before since the song stays long enough in the range
of the hard rock which is ok for me since I am not fan of the heavy metal. But you
are quite 'an Ear', it seems that hardly anything can pass beyond your radars.
Orpheus,
I am glad you like Carlos Santana. This might be latino rock which is kind of
'soft' in the comparison to the mainly 'hard listing' of mine. I mostly picked rock with strong accent on the guitar and a bit aggressive vocal due
to uncle's comment about the rock of being too noisy.
But Santana
definitely has a touch. You surely have a well cared style.
Santana,
Black magic woman
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyQUCYl-ocs
And Frogman,
man, that was absolutely great post, I enjoyed very much reading. You know the stuff. Nothing to add nor subtract there.
You have said it all.
Shaping
the world (music) exclusively according to one's own preferences and seeing it
through one's eyes only, would be leastwise, boring not to say limited.
How can
you not to love this:
Art
Pepper, The Prisoner
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5utT5yiQAOo
This
Erik Satie,
Gnossienne
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUAF3abGY2M
This
Mighty
Sam McClain - When The Hurt Is Over
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4YPMiFaPWo
Or this
at the same time
Bob
Dylan - Knockin' On Heaven's Door
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bWzyiU-S_w
Uuuuuu,
uuuu.....
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There is a case for it, but somebody has to file a law suit. Law suits have been filed and won; I just read about one recently where the wrongdoers paid out big, but it took years. |
frog, thanks for your well-considered comments, as always.
o10, are you, or anyone else, surprised that Yma's estate didn't sue Simon and Garfinkel for "stealing/copying" "El Condor Pasa"?
Actually, the whole musical plagiarism thing escapes me. It has been such a long-standing tradition, and not only in jazz, to copy/lift/modify/be influenced by all or part of songs created or performed by others that I just don't see a case for it. |
I stand corrected. Who is from Peru?? Cheers
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Diana Krall with a distinctive Spanish accent, interesting. In 2009, Cesaria Evora was made a knightess of the French Legion of Honour by the French French Minister of Culture and Communications Christine Albanel, the first Cape Verdean who became one. Horace Silver's Father is also from the Cape Verdean Islands; hence song for my Father has an island lilt; The Album I'm speaking of. Since I have no idea where those islands are, I asked "Wikipedia" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cape_VerdeI have her in compilations but not a complete album, that must be corrected. |
The folks in the comments section say it’s Diana Krall singing ’Besame Mucho’. :(
Evora is the real deal. I think she is from Peru. Cheers |
The Straw man Cometh. Cheers |
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Damn, what a fine, fine post, frogman. |
There are two principles that I believe are really important to consider when discussing the relative merit of any music and that I have mentioned several times over the life of this thread. One is what I feel is the need for listeners who consider themselves true music lovers to have and to approach the listening experience with a certain amount of humility. What I mean by this is that we should never forget that the art form is bigger and more important that anyone one of us and our particular tastes and preferences. Our preferences and tastes in music will always color our judgment of the merit of any genre; and consequently, whether we like that genre or not is not what determines its ultimate merit. Nothing wrong with not liking any particular genre or style of music nor of having strong preferences, but to make grand statements about its merit as applicable on a universal scale is foolish and arrogant, imo. We all judge and like/dislike music according to what resonates with each of us. This is determined in great part by our age and what is familiar to us, among other things. Sure, we all like to think that we push the boundaries of the familiar and are open minded to the new, but I think that the reality is that we are all governed to some degree by what is comfortable (familiar) to us and tend to resist and resent what we perceive as challenging or perceive as destroying the familiar.
The second principle is something pryso alluded to, the idea that good art is a reflection of the time of its creation. I would add that what determines the merit of any art is how well it reflects that time. We may not like what any art says about the time of its creation, but our reaction is ultimately more of a statement about each of us than about the ultimate merit of the art. Moreover, this notion is not limited to the 60’s, it is applicable to any era. Every genre or style of music, from Early music to swing, to bebop, to fusion, etc. is a reflection of the times; just as R&R was and is. There are good and artistically valid examples of each of those genres just as there are bad examples. For me, many on mary_jo’s Rock list are on a higher artistic level than some of the second and third rate “jazz” that has been produced and recorded over the years and that gets automatic cred simply because it is “jazz”. I like good rock and roll and I see no point in comparing its merits to jazz or Classical or whatever. I may not love it the way I do great Jazz or Classical, but it is certainly valid and relevant and sometimes exactly what I want to listen to. ( Besides, it’s not quite the same working out to “Kind Of Blue” 😓). Do I wish that we still lived in the era when Jazz was the “popular” music genre? Sometimes I do; but then I wake up to reality. Rock and Roll did not destroy jazz; it is a product and reflection of the times. If you don’t like it, don’t kill the messenger!
Nice list, mary_jo.
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I don't know if it's apparent to everyone else, but when I listen to all this music, it's apparent to me, that I have been through many phases of music in life; when I was young and extremely active, I was more into music that reflected that; rock to some extent. Now that I'm more inactive, I want to be in a reflective groove; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxz9eZ1Aons https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CutrIZzTJl0It's fair to say that while I don't find some Rock unappealing, I wouldn't rush out and buy it. |
