******Who, pray tell, decided that either of them was the best Jazz album ever?*****
And the answer is: Noah Lefevre !!
Cheers
Jazz for aficionados
Jazz for aficionados
I'm going to review records in my collection, and you'll be able to decide if they're worthy of your collection. These records are what I consider "must haves" for any jazz aficionado, and would be found in their collections. I wont review any record that's not on CD, nor will I review any record if the CD is markedly inferior. Fortunately, I only found 1 case where the CD was markedly inferior to the record.
Our first album is "Moanin" by Art Blakey and The Jazz Messengers. We have Lee Morgan , trumpet; Benney Golson, tenor sax; Bobby Timmons, piano; Jymie merrit, bass; Art Blakey, drums.
The title tune "Moanin" is by Bobby Timmons, it conveys the emotion of the title like no other tune I've ever heard, even better than any words could ever convey. This music pictures a person whose down to his last nickel, and all he can do is "moan".
"Along Came Betty" is a tune by Benny Golson, it reminds me of a Betty I once knew. She was gorgeous with a jazzy personality, and she moved smooth and easy, just like this tune. Somebody find me a time machine! Maybe you knew a Betty.
While the rest of the music is just fine, those are my favorite tunes. Why don't you share your, "must have" jazz albums with us.
Enjoy the music.
I'm going to review records in my collection, and you'll be able to decide if they're worthy of your collection. These records are what I consider "must haves" for any jazz aficionado, and would be found in their collections. I wont review any record that's not on CD, nor will I review any record if the CD is markedly inferior. Fortunately, I only found 1 case where the CD was markedly inferior to the record.
Our first album is "Moanin" by Art Blakey and The Jazz Messengers. We have Lee Morgan , trumpet; Benney Golson, tenor sax; Bobby Timmons, piano; Jymie merrit, bass; Art Blakey, drums.
The title tune "Moanin" is by Bobby Timmons, it conveys the emotion of the title like no other tune I've ever heard, even better than any words could ever convey. This music pictures a person whose down to his last nickel, and all he can do is "moan".
"Along Came Betty" is a tune by Benny Golson, it reminds me of a Betty I once knew. She was gorgeous with a jazzy personality, and she moved smooth and easy, just like this tune. Somebody find me a time machine! Maybe you knew a Betty.
While the rest of the music is just fine, those are my favorite tunes. Why don't you share your, "must have" jazz albums with us.
Enjoy the music.
31,721 responses Add your response
| Post removed |
The "hippest" is never the most popular, which is why KOB is the most popular; it's just not as "jazzy" AKA hip as "Somethin Else". Only the true connoisseurs of jazz can make such distinctions. Miles did what sidemen do on records, he played great solos, but it was Cannonballs music. Compare "Love For Sale" on SE, and the same tune on Miles record. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tSYXpq2kW0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-i6wNgg5kq4 Miles's sounds like Miles, not Cannonball; it's much different, even when he's playing the solos on both tunes; that was Cannonball's music on Cannonball's album. |
Happy Holiday, everyone! Thanks for the link acman3. And great Stitt clip; nice segue to the Cosby bit! Notice how toward the end of his comedy bit Bill Cosby sings “Cherokee” in the same key (the original key) that Sonny Stitt plays it in. Very hard to pull that out of the blue and hear the key, especially in a context like that. The guy had (s?) some real musical talent as well. What a shame he has such a dark side. guswatte, welcome to the thread. Very eclectic trio of recordings. I’m intrigued by Anna Maria Jopek: Minione (collaboration with Rubalcaba), Haiku and will check it out. O-10, I am glad you hold SE in such high esteem; I do as well. I guess I am not a “true connoisseur of jazz” capable of recognizing what is the hippest. Since I am not, I will only sheepishly point out a couple of things about the comparison you pose: On SE’s “Love For Sale” Cannonball doesn’t even play the tune. The opening and closing statements of the melody are by Miles. Cannonball doesn’t even play at all for a full two and a quarter minutes. Secondly, I would respectfully suggest you listen to KOB a little more before passing judgment. Had you done so, perhaps you would have known that “Love For Sale” doesn’t appear on KOB at all. That recording is from a different record. What’s on the grill today fellows? Pork chops with a pineapple glaze over here. Enjoy! https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=H0pvrG3oMuA |
The point was not who's playing the tune but the feel of the music, which was Cannonball's. Blame "you tube" for posting that KOB cover, that was not my point; my point was Miles version of "Love For Sale" no matter what album, was so different from Cannonball's version. It's the leader who determines the "feel" of the album and music, which is why one "Love For Sale" sounds so different from the other, even when the same person (Miles Dewey Davis) is playing both versions. |
Just as I detest vocalists who scat inappropriately in order to demonstrate their virtuosity, when the story line of the song absolutely does not call for it; I'm not in love with artists who interject their "stylistics" in a fashion beyond the story line of the song. "Love For Sale" is a hauntingly beautiful song about a streetwalker who has love for sale, but she would rather have true love, which is not for sale. Miles love for sale captures Miles, while Cannonball's version captures the haunting beauty of the song. |
| Post removed |
Guswatte, here's my favorite tune with Anna Maria Jopek; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0iSiPjbS8_Q |
The more I listened to how great Randy Weston was, the more I realized how wonderful a player Billy Harper is. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVGDGwgt9MA |
acman3 Thanks for recent S Kenton cut f/Cuban Fire. http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qjw2w5RgxME Kenton w/ John Parks ,lead alto, a guy on the cusp of stardom ( recorded one lp which I have) who died prematurely: http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=VijQAMq7KeA http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eRAOsRlWr6M http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pixdJYhSz2o |
o10, it wasn't my intent to "fault" her performance of "Cry Me A River" so much as to offer the comment that the presentation reminded me of a Bond theme song, for example Shirley Bassey. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6D1nK7q2i8I |
Now, concerning this discussion comparing SE with KOB. It’s one thing to talk about a given album’s rating after the release. I didn’t research SE’s Downbeat rating for example, or any others, but I can believe SE was very well received. However it is a different matter to judge any recording as being considered a "classic". I think most might agree that requires the test of time. With that thought there are two jazz albums which stand out above the others as having received both critical acclaim and broad popularity sufficient to be called classics -- KOB and Take Five. Note this is not saying they are the "best" jazz albums ever, but two which met both elements of classification. SE has maintained some popularity but comes up a little short in this respect. On a personal level I will admit that the continued popularity for KOB does surprise me somewhat. I’ve loved it since buying my first copy in 1960. But it is out of the mainstream of what is generally considered to be popular jazz. It’s not funky, doesn’t include a driving beat or something make the listener want to get up and dance. But it really is like an onion; so many layers to be pealed away and invite deeper exploration. Just my perspective. Further discussion welcomed as always. |
Yes! John Park on “Street Of Dreams” is amazing. I can’t believe I had never heard that cut. Just great. What a fantastic player! Thanks for that. pryso, excellent post. “like an onion”; I like that and very apt. Why KOB remains popular is, for me, twofold. Its importance in shaping the direction of jazz is one and that doesn’t need any more documenting since so much has been written about that and the reasons why it did. The second reason is, imo, that in spite of the fact that “It’s not funky, doesn’t include a driving beat or something make the listener want to get up and dance. ”, the music is actually quite accessible. The harmonic simplicity of the modal tunes actually make it very accessible to the listener; as do the likewise “simple” melodies. An interesting byproduct of a compositional approach (modal) intended to give the soloist much more creative freedom of expression. That is part of the brilliance of the record; it has made for an easy introduction to “serious” jazz for many. Melodies and harmonic changes don’t get much simpler than that of “So What”, for instance. I would add a possible third reason to the mix. The interest in audiophile quality reissues which began about forty years ago or so put that record in the limelight again. The instrumental playing is, of course, as good as it gets. |
Pryso, since you can't believe it was well received, I have to question your taste in jazz, it's apparent you were not there; maybe that was before you discovered jazz. SE was the very hottest album after it's release. "Somethin Else"; Professional ratings Review scores Source Rating Allmusic 5/5 stars The Penguin Guide to Jazz 4/4 stars[3] Somethin' Else is a jazz album by saxophonist Julian "Cannonball" Adderley, released on Blue Note Records in 1958. Also on the session is trumpeter Miles Davis in one of his handful of recording dates for Blue Note. Adderley was a member of Davis' group at the time this album was recorded. The Penguin Guide to Jazz selected this album as part of its suggested "Core Collection. When an album gets that high of a rating by professionals, without a doubt, maybe you should listen to it again. |
o10, how did you think I didn’t believe SE was well received? Read my post again, I said "but I can believe SE was very well received." I do own, appreciate, and enjoy the album. But it seems we hold different perspectives over whether SE or KOB is our personal favorite. Certainly no harm in that. ;^) Anyway, here’s a quote from a fairly well-respected jazz musician. It shouldn’t dictate what you or anyone else prefers, but it does add creditability to the stature of KOB. "I play Kind of Blue every day - it’s my orange juice." Quincy Jones |
Happy Labor Day! I agree with everyone about John Park. Simply amazing talent! Thanks nsp for those links. I’m going to try and hunt down that one recording you say he did! frogman that Cosby link was hilarious. I was having a few drams of bourbon last night and playing a lot of Art Pepper. As you all know Art always had substance abuse problems. In his autobiography Straight Life he writes about those 3 nights of recordings at the Village Vanguard. He was up every night looking over the arrangements while snorting Cocaine. The fact that he never slept those 3-4 days/nights and still sounded great is beyond my comprehension! Fast forward on this link to the 8:28 mark. An interview with Art. At the 12 minute mark Art explains how he always makes sure to play standards that the audience are accustomed to before playing something radically different like the song "The Trip" because after hearing and enjoying what they like they will be more receptive to something not "ordinary" to them. That part of the interview is where rok2id needs to pay attention!!… A little labor day sarcasm! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jn8VzO-KbfQ |
"stop and think people". Very good advice rok, which you might take yourself. Who stated that KOB and SE were the two best jazz albums in creation? I certainly didn't, and I don't believe o10 did either. My understanding was this discussion debated which one deserved the highest classics status. So that was a consideration of only two and no attempt to say either one was the number one jazz album of all time, that would be a ranking not a rating. BTW, an impossible task in my opinion. o10 and I had a friendly discussion over which of those two we prefer, or possibly rate higher as a classic. That certainly doesn't exclude other fine albums from classic status. But I would never pretend to proclaim any one album as the best in creation. |
Although Miles strays farther than the true intent of "Love For Sale" than Cannonball (no matter what album), he doesn't stray too far. The reason I mention that is because one of my pet peeves is when an artist gives the title of a standard, and you can't even recognize it. If they wanted to play some outlandish unrecognizable tune, why didn't they just give it a new name. Some of my favorite albums have not even been mentioned on this forum, and I don't mention them because they aren't even on "you tube". |
*****Looks like the great unwashed have spoken***** If you are speaking of the so-called popularity of KOB and SE, I think it's more like the Eastern 'Elite' opinion makers have spoken. The best way to judge how good Jazz albums are, is to ask yourself, which ones do I listen to the most. One of my copies of KOB is still in the cello wrap. (SACD). It's important, but that's not the same as being one of the best. Cheers |
Man, talk about straw man arguments (to use a popular phrase of yours); they abound in this discussion. To reiterate what pryso pointed out, no one has claimed that KOB is the best ever; only that some here prefer it over SE. Would be so much more positive and productive (and pleasant) if there were more focus in these discussions. Old story, I guess. Speaking of old stories: **** Let’s not forget the audience and / or marketplace in all of this. In the end, they decide. And they decided **** - rok2id KOB: best selling jazz album of all time. 4 million copies sold. 5000 copies per week continue to be sold. |
I would agree with what Pryso had already said, no point to discuss in a such way, arguing. Just to add, that sales argument is not the one that I would hold on to. So many jazz of yesterday is quite unknown today and lots of people just want to have some of the ’best’ music from ’this’ or ’that’ genre, so they buy the one album that is ’well known’....its funny, but often, when some conversation about music starts, I discover how many people ’listens’ to jazz...and first (or better, the only ones) names that are mentioned are ’Miles and Coltrane’.... |
Rok, which circus are you referring to, be more specific. Are you referring to what happens when people are left without jobs, "means to earn a living"; then the same conditions exist in Chicago, St'. Louis, LA, and all of the other major cities. Tell me what you are talking about, and I will comment on it. |
Here are the top 25 jazz albums of all time: .. The Best of the Hot 5 & Hot 7 Recordings - Louis Armstrong. ... Blue Train - John Coltrane. ... Getz/Gilberto - Stan Getz & Joao Gilberto. ... Mingus Ah Um - Charles Mingus. ... Concert By the Sea - Errol Garner. ... Bitches Brew - Miles Davis. .. Kind Of Blue - Miles Davis A Love Supreme - John Coltrane Time Out - Dave Brubeck Ellington At Newport - Duke Ellington Jazz At Massey Hall - The Quintet The Best of the Hot 5 & Hot 7 Recordings - Louis Armstrong Blue Train - John Coltrane Getz/Gilberto - Stan Getz & Joao Gilberto Mingus Ah Um - Charles Mingus Concert By the Sea - Errol Garner Bitches Brew - Miles Davis Saxophone Colossus - Sonny Rollins Moanin’ - Art Blakey & The Jazz Messengers Clifford Brown and Max Roach At Carnegie Hall - Thelonious Monk with John Coltrane Soul Station - Hank Mobley Somethin’ Else - Cannonball Adderley Speak No Evil, Wayne Shorter Birth of the Cool - Miles Davis Maiden Voyage, Herbie Hancock A Boy Named Charlie Brown - Vince Guaraldi Trio Out to Lunch - Eric Dolphy The Blues and The Abtract Truth - Oliver Nelson Go - Dexter Gordon With Clifford Brown - Sarah Vaughan The details of these albums can be found here; https://www.thejazzresource.com/top_25_jazz_albums_page_2.html |
Everyone: Which Jazz records do you play most often? My top five CDs is no particular order: Marsalis -- Marsalis and Clapton play the blues Mingus -- Oh Yeah Ellington -- At Newport Masekela -- Best of: Grazing in the grass Gene Harris -- In His Hands Tunes I play most often: Coltrane -- My Favorite Things (mainly to hear McCoy) Lester Bowie -- I only have eyes for you Keeping in mind that Jelly Roll said Jazz was a way of playing music. Cheers |
While there are many divas, there's nothing like a hometown gal; I present to you Mardra Thomas, "All Blues"; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBPuaYy9tlU |
o10, many great albums on your list, even if several of them are repeats. ;^) And while I don't feel qualified to identify a "X best list", I'll further admit my own personal favorites could change from one day to the next. How's that for confusing the issue? Regarding Detroit, while I never lived there I did grow up in Michigan. Like so many others in souther MI the majority of my family had jobs related in some fashion to the auto industry. It's clear the downfall of Detroit can't be separated from the downfall of the American automotive industry. There were two major factors in that. First was the oil crisis in the '70s and the Big Three's* failure to adapt quickly with more fuel efficient and environmentally friendly models. The second was the change in Big Three management to MBA "bean counters" in place of the experienced engineers and sales people who had traditionally evolved to top management positions in all three companies. So for those reasons efficiency and quality suffered and European and Far East companies filled the gap. Once Detroit's (automotive) dominance was lost it has not been able to reclaim it. As o10 suggested, other US cities also suffered loss of population and economic strength. This has been a result of evolution in technological change. There is though an interesting aside. Two years ago I visited to attend the Woodward Avenue Dream Cruise, possibly the largest non-racing automotive event in the US. That took me not only to the City of Detroit but to several of the suburban cities. They looked prosperous and healthy. But we don't read about that, only of the bad times and decay in Detroit. Now back to our regularly scheduled broadcast. * GM, Ford, Chrysler for aficionados who are not also automotive buffs. |