Jazz for aficionados
I'm going to review records in my collection, and you'll be able to decide if they're worthy of your collection. These records are what I consider "must haves" for any jazz aficionado, and would be found in their collections. I wont review any record that's not on CD, nor will I review any record if the CD is markedly inferior. Fortunately, I only found 1 case where the CD was markedly inferior to the record.
Our first album is "Moanin" by Art Blakey and The Jazz Messengers. We have Lee Morgan , trumpet; Benney Golson, tenor sax; Bobby Timmons, piano; Jymie merrit, bass; Art Blakey, drums.
The title tune "Moanin" is by Bobby Timmons, it conveys the emotion of the title like no other tune I've ever heard, even better than any words could ever convey. This music pictures a person whose down to his last nickel, and all he can do is "moan".
"Along Came Betty" is a tune by Benny Golson, it reminds me of a Betty I once knew. She was gorgeous with a jazzy personality, and she moved smooth and easy, just like this tune. Somebody find me a time machine! Maybe you knew a Betty.
While the rest of the music is just fine, those are my favorite tunes. Why don't you share your, "must have" jazz albums with us.
Enjoy the music.
I always thought that Paco de Lucia and Al di Meola do not really match well. McLaughlin, as a leader of the trio, in most cases smoothed things out and bound them together. Find their performance in Germany in the year 1981, I guess. They perform somewhere in the open, another concert in Berlin or wherever was not that good. Flamenco is an Andalusian art but it is a fusion of a few musical traditions, including Middle Eastern. Until 19th century it was almost always just singing and dancing. If I remember right, Nino Ricardo and Ramon Montoya developed modern flamenco guitar as we know it. Paco followed the school of Nino Ricardo. I strongly prefer it to all others, don't like Sabicas, for example. I understand preference for traditional American jazz, I myself prefer American blues. Hell, maybe I am partly black. Don't look it, though. |
Orpheus10, they are not dead, they live in you, your memories and your music. Yes, we are much more than we may think, it is just often difficult to access and articulate, make it more present and create this oneness. Try album Suspended Memories - Forgotten Gods. It is tribal ambient music, I listened to it hundreds of times. Jorge Reyes is a white man who grew up in Indian village in Mexico, Steve Roach is Arizona desert dweller and Suso Saiz on electric guitar is Spanish. |
inna, I have the CD of the concert you are referring to. Its called "Friday Night in San Francisco" with Al Di Meola, John McLaughlin, and Paco De Lucia. I also have the SACD. Fantastic show. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vz5AT48vOLU |
A most important influence to all "jazz guitarists" who came later: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQhTpgicdx4 |
pjw81563, no not this concert, though it was the same tour. The recording you referred to is only about one third of that concert in San-Francisco. It was an excellent performance but not the best. Here, found it. Part 2. Germany, 1981. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5uAdifa648&t=2005s |
*****A most important influence to all "jazz guitarists" who came later:***** Any influence this guy had, came from America. Most likely in the form of Lt. Jimmy Reese Europe, and his Hell-Fighter Band during World War l. They introduced Europe to Jazz. New York National Guard I believe. Harlem in particular. Cheers |
Concerning the posts upthread of the International and American tribal songs with vocal chants, my favorite was orpheus10's posting of this Nordic piece: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kprl0CECykA It has that powerful and forceful nature to it as if she crying out from some pain or yearning in the center of her soul to the spirits of her ancestors. Ennio Morricone, my all time favorite composer and arranger of film scores uses chanting in many of his most famous pieces such as these 3 from "The Good The Bad And The Ugly" being performed by the The Danish National Symphony Orchestra. the piece flows from the main theme (opening of movie) into the closest to the end when Tuco is racing around the cemetary searching for the grave full of gold. 1; buono, il brutto, il cattivo (The Good, the Bad and the Ugly) Main 2: L'estasi dell'oro (The Ecstasy of Gold) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KkM71JPHfjk And here is the last piece, performed by Morricone's orchestra for the original motion picture soundtrack complete with the scene. It's title is Morricone perfection: "The Trio" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awskKWzjlhk |
rok2id, "Any influence this guy had, came from America. Most likely in the form of Lt. Jimmy Reese Europe, and his Hell-Fighter Band during World War l. They introduced Europe to Jazz." Do you have a factual source to backup that claim? Even if true when Django arrived here and started playing, his fellow jazz musicians including Satchmo and the Duke were in awe! And my statement is still true. Django's influence is unparalleled for guitarists all over the world. |
*****Do you have a factual source to backup that claim?***** Not a claim, it's a fact. Google, "Lt. Jimmy Reese Europe". Surprised a Jazz lover has not heard of him. *****Even if true when Django arrived here and started playing, his fellow jazz musicians including Satchmo and the Duke were in awe!***** Do you seriously think Pops and The Duke were "in awe" of this guy? They were just being nice and charitable, as they always were in public. Cheers |
Interesting how there can be disagreement about something when there is truth to both sides of the argument. What is being missed is the connection to the earlier (barely) discussion about the mystery of the influence that genetics may play on what type of music resonates with each of us. One of the first and recurring debates here concerns the origins of jazz. One camp claims that, contrary to just about every scholarly and pacticing musician’s opinion on the subject, jazz sprang up in America independent of and immune to any possible influence by the ethnicity (genetics) of its “creators”, or influence by the societal circumstances around them. The other camp believes that jazz is an art form that is a big melting pot of influences; African, European and Middle Eastern. A closer, and less emotional, look at what defines jazz gives credence to the second viewpoint, imo. Django Reindhart famously said, upon hearing Louis Armstrong play for the first time (as acman3 points out) “My brother!”. To my way of thinking that comment says it all. If one looks at the makeup of Jazz and the many influences that came to bear in its creation, it is no mystery to me why jazz would resonate with a Gypsy guitarist who had never heard “it” before, but whose more familiar music was in some ways, however removed, one of the ingredients in the pot. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=IW0nOgrwwy4 And, of course Armstrong would have been impressed upon hearing Django for the first time. For starters, no one had played guitar like that before. |
A long time ago, there was a dispute in which Rok was right, but rather than side with Rok, I stated we should let "Wiki" decide. Jazz is a music genre that originated in the African-American communities of New Orleans, United States,[1] in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, and developed from roots in blues and ragtime.[2] Jazz is seen by many as "America's classical music".[3] Since the 1920s Jazz Age, jazz has become recognized as a major form of musical expression. It then emerged in the form of independent traditional and popular musical styles, all linked by the common bonds of African-American and European-American musical parentage with a performance orientation.[4] Jazz is characterized by swing and blue notes, call and response vocals, polyrhythms and improvisation. Jazz has roots in West African cultural and musical expression, and in African-American music traditions including blues and ragtime, as well as European military band music.[5] Intellectuals around the world have hailed jazz as "one of America's original art forms".[6] Like it or not, this is the impartial way we make decisions of this nature on this thread. |
Funny how we tend to see what we want to see, and ignore what doesn’t fit our political agenda. From the same Wiki article: **** all linked by the common bonds of African-American and European-American musical parentage **** Parentage: a : descent from parents or ancestors : lineage And, as with most Wiki articles, this is just scratching the surface. Btw, the person who was “right” (Not!), was the same person who incessantly ridiculed the person who was “wrong” (Not!) for being foolish enough to quote a Wiki article. I hereby hand over the coveted and previously held title of “Wikiman” 😊 |
inna and o10, I've had a similar experience with a genetic memory. Long time readers of Stereophile may remember when Sam Tellig promoted his tours of Russia. I was part of his last one in the fall of 1991. Part of the tour included a couple of days in Odessa. There I had a strange feeling of familiarity, even thinking I might recognize someone on the street. Well my paternal great-grandfather was from Ukraine, so who knows? And o10 you likely know you can identify some of your heritage through DNA testing. Concerning Django, an artist I've enjoyed since my initial exposure to jazz, who is to say even if Jimmy Reese was instrumental (!) in introducing American jazz to Europe, that he influenced Reinhardt? Or that Reinhardt even ever heard him? That's really going out on a limb. Frog's "My brother!" reference has much more substance. |
Isn’t it amazing how every time The Frogman opens his mouth, all his little minions, as if on cue, jump in with support. Brings to mind, the North Korean military on parade. I actually LOL.
*****Frog’s "My brother!" reference has much more substance.***** What a silly thing to say. I probably shouted "my brother" when I first heard Coltrane, and I can’t play a lick. Wiki -- Before debating any article, first, determine who wrote it. I can quote any Book, from the Bible to Mein Kampf. It don’t mean a thing. EVERYONE has an agenda. Especially The Frogman. ***** if Jimmy Reese was instrumental (!) in introducing American jazz to Europe, that he influenced Reinhardt? Or that Reinhardt even ever heard him? ***** See, this is a good example of the twisted logic these folks use. Django never heard of Reese, therefore he could not be influenced by him, (BS btw) BUT, every Jazz player in New Orleans was ’influenced’ by every person and group on planet earth. I didn’t know they were such world travelers. Insidious -- having a gradual and cumulative effect. Subtle. When reading any article about Jazz or Black music in general, remember this word. INSIDIOUS. Examples in the recent articles. "European Military Band Music". European Military Bands? There were billions of marching bands in New Orleans, both black and white. Hell, Sousa might still have been alive. He was director of the US Marine Corps Band. The US Military has hundreds of bands. In fact, Pops said if it had not been for segregation in New Orleans, there might have never been anything like Jazz. He said all the black guys would have been in the marching bands playing Sousa. BUT, they had to get that word ’European’ in the discussion. "Introducing American Jazz Music to Europe" American Jazz? What other kind was there? And played by who? implication: there was Jazz in Europe before Reese, just not "American’ Jazz. People used to read to gain knowledge, now, you have to have a lot of knowledge before you read. The President is right. There is, and has always been, a lot of fake news out there. Cheers |
" My brother ! " means my family, my family means my home. Both black people in America and Gypsy lost their home, not on their own will. When you improvise it is as if you are trying to find the right notes. In time it becomes a habit, a compulsion, almost a thing in itself. Finding right notes signifies finding home. But you never can really, what is lost is lost. You keep playing. Others keep listening. The same. |
A few generations time does not change that, ask Orpheus10. Better argument - what about Iranians and Indians who apparently haven't lost home, their music doesn't exist without improvisation ? We can speculate. What I said was in fact an invitation to do it. Historically speaking, Iranians and Northern Indians are not natives to those lands. There were advanced cultures before they came there. Indo-Iranian tribes came from the North, from Great Steppe. |
I confess. I listen to Christmas Music year round. Ran across this on the tube. Will see if CDs exist. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e9GtPX6c_kg&index=29&list=RDtBt9DQJOO-4 The African and Middle Eastern 'influences' and not too prominent. But you just can't get away from that Roma stuff. Cheers |
I started to contribute to this thread about 6 months ago. Since that time I have noticed just 2 members who stick out and draw attention to themselves. The first is orpheus10 the OP thread starter. Although he seems to have issues with any other race other then African having no "soul" in their music, he is very open minded and listens to many forms of the art of music from all over the world. His recent posts will attest to this. He does not criticize music, old or new, unless he hears it first. He obviously does not think that ALL fusion, abstract, Avant Guard, or international jazz is "NOISE." And I tend to agree with him, for the most part that Africans indeed are blessed with more soul. orpheus10 is a reasonable man that can have a reasonable debate about music. The second is rok2id. He is extremely opinionated and does not budge on his perspective of subjects. He likes older straight ahead jazz from 1900-1965. This is plain to see when he posts his YouTube links. This I have no problem with at all. His conclusions on who influenced who and what is and what is not to be considered "real jazz" and not "noise" is very closed minded IMHO. His ramblings about Pops and Duke not liking Django's music and just being charitable and his following posts in debate of others to re-affirm this and the fact that only he possesses the knowledge on what is real history and what is not, as can be verified by reading his recent posts and countless other posts I have read when he is debating a subject, suggest that he is a bigot. This I do not like. But one thing I am 100% sure of is that he don't give a crap whether I like it or not!! Bigot: a person who is intolerant toward those holding different opinions. |
Orpheus10, I can't say I like that Japanese sort of jazzy new age, though there are a few brief moments. By the way, masterless samurai is no longer a samurai. Some of those became ninjas, others landlords, masters themselves, and then some of them became artists. I don't know much about them, just read a few lines. As for Japanese traditional music, it is hard for me to access it, Japan is quite a distant culture. Frogman, that Armenian musician perhaps can play but what he plays sounds gibberish to me. |
I may have spoken to soon concerning the straw-man award. *****His ramblings about Pops and Duke not liking Django's music and just being charitable***** I implied that Pops and Ellington were not 'in awe' of Django. Nothing about like or dislike. Influence / influenced -- sort of like the word 'culture'. Used often, and most often misused. ***Bigot: a person who is intolerant toward those holding different opinions.*** Bigot -- very superficial definition. I am intolerant of many things. Most of them bad. Nazis and Communists come to mind. Cheers |
Soul: A label I detest. Every time they refer to Aretha Franklin as a 'soul' singer I cringe. One of the great voices / singers of the 20th century is being pigeonholed in some small musical niche created by god knows who. I guess Ray Charles was a 'soul' singer also. paraphrasing, The power to define, is the power to control. To limit. Cheers |
The "My brother" reference was a quote from Django after hearing Satchmo's music. That sounded pretty substantial to me about his preferences. Is there another quote where he suggests admiration for or influence from Reese? This is not the first time rok has taken issue with something I posted. Discourse is welcomed, but only when done in a civil and constructive manner. So hereafter I'll refrain from commenting on anything he says, regardless of my reaction to it. |
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And who is it that has “left” the thread a few times huffing and puffing due to disagreement? 😖 https://youtu.be/jKPbB-C0qjQ |
rok2id, Ambiguity, in the use of a word goes both ways. I used the word awe. Awe: a feeling of reverential respect mixed with fear or wonder. Could it be Pops had respect for Django mixed with wonder?.. I was never able to ask Pops face to face how he felt about Django were you? So what makes your statement about how the Duke and Pops felt right and mine wrong. Watch the video I posted and fast forward to the 3:25 mark and you will hear, in Louis Armstrong’s own voice, "He knocked me out - oooooh boy that cat sure could play." Your response ******They were just being nice and charitable, as they always were in public****** could be ambiguously described as they heard him play, made nice comments about, then walked away laughing and joking to each other how he sounded like crap. Again, if you had actually watched and LISTENED to the whole video it all so says they were at a jam session after the show and not in public when Pops was struck by his playing. Ambiguous: open to more than one interpretation When you get right down to it the thing is why would you make post that comment at all?... Think about it |
*****When you get right down to it the thing is why would you make post that comment at all?... Think about it***** I don't have to think about it. I know why I made the statement. This thread has a history of promoting noise makers by posting positive comments made by big time Jazz players. So and so can really play, MINGUS said bah bah bah, Cannonball praised him, Pops said he will be a star etc........ I am not saying Django was a noise maker. I like his music, especially the stuff he did with Grappelli. My point is this, given the 'social conditions' that prevailed at the time we are discussing, black musicians never criticized other musicians when asked to comment. They had nothing to gain by being negative and maybe a lot to lose. Therefore, we can ignore all comments made by the greats concerning other players. As the great NY Giants and Dallas Cowboy football coach, Bill Parcells always said, "You are, what your record says you are". No more no less. Pops is Pops, Ellington is Ellington and Django is Django etc.......... No matter who says what. Cheers |
I don't want to, but I suppose it's my duty to step in the middle of this "fray". It looks like a "caucus race" to me; that's from Alice in Wonderland, and everybody is right and everybody wins. Music is so subjective, that it's hard for anybody to be wrong; as an example there's an album that's a hit with a lot of people, which has something in the title about a "gravel road". Without hearing the album, I can't imagine anything about a "gravel road" would appeal to me. It's very unlikely that I will ever hear that album. We've touched on DNA and the possibility it plays a role in the music we like; not to mention all the sociological factors from birth to the present. We have a right to all our prejudices in regard to music; it's not necessary to agree. Inna, as you stated; "a few brief moments"; I didn't find exactly what I was looking for. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKYMEseTZxE https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koto_%26_Flute Koto and Flute is my all time favorite Japanese jazz oriented album; I still own this album, but it's too scratched to be listened to. At any rate we are all entitled to our different tastes. |
Rok, nonsense, find me and post ONE reference from a credible source to the notion that “black musicians never criticized other musicians when asked to comment”. Musicians have always been each other’s toughest critics. Rok, you make stuff up to support your personalized and very rigid notions of, among other things, the history of this music. I realize you have anointed yourself a “world renowned authority on jazz” and are unwilling to change your views about any of this, but a lot of what you espouse is simply not true. Every credible writer and/or historian on these topics, not to mention musicians, have a different viewpoint from yours and yet we are supposed to consider the views of someone who can’t (or won’t) even grasp the concept of influence in music. I see. You like to rewrite history almost as much as arguing about it; including the history of the “pouting episodes”. Try posting music instead of antagonizing. And, please, we don’t need the same clips for the third, fourth or more times. O-10, you are correct, we are all entitled to our tastes in music, but not to our “tastes” in the history of it; or other aspects of it which are well documented and/or factual.. |
*****Nonsense, find me and post ONE reference from a credible source to the notion that “black musicians never criticized other musicians when asked to comment***** Show me ONE example of a big time black Jazz player making negative comments about a white player, when asked to comment by a media or Jazz critic type. Just ONE example. I wait with bated breath. Cheers |
**** Show me ONE example of a big time black Jazz player making negative comments about a white player, when asked to comment by a media or Jazz critic type. Just ONE example. **** Easy! #### (Leonard) Feather (for Downbeat): It was Don Ellis. Have you ever heard him? (Miles) Davis: Yeah, I heard him. He’s no soloist. I mean, he’s a nice guy and all that, but to me he’s just another white trumpet player. He can’t play in a chord, can’t play with any feeling; that’s the reason I guess they use all that time s&it. #### Let me know if you need more. |
*********I don’t have to think about it. I know why I made the statement. This thread has a history of promoting noise makers by posting positive comments made by big time Jazz players. So and so can really play, MINGUS said bah bah bah, Cannonball praised him, Pops said he will be a star etc........************** So when a musician from the present says he likes the music from another musician from 40 years ago, that he likes it and was influenced by it has no meaning. And when a musician from 40 years ago says he was re-inspired by some present musician and really likes his music, we should ignore that also. You just contradicted yourself because if you like Django’s music, as you have just posted that means that when I posted that the Duke and Pops thought Django was good (not a "noise maker"), you should have not replied with ***********Do you seriously think Pops and The Duke were "in awe" of this guy?They were just being nice and charitable, as they always were in public.************ because since you by your own fingers on the keys said you like Django and therefore the first quoted statement of yours above which indicates that you do not care what musicians say about noise makers (implying their just being nice and charitable) would not apply and be to Django. You made the post because you have a condescending personality and that is why. And please don’t try to deny this fact with your following slant on why you posted it. *******My point is this, given the ’social conditions’ that prevailed at the time we are discussing, black musicians never criticized other musicians when asked to comment. They had nothing to gain by being negative and maybe a lot to lose.********* Really? in an empty club during a jam session which the location might have been north of the Mason Dixon line? ***********As the great NY Giants and Dallas Cowboy football coach, Bill Parcells always said, "You are, what your record says you are". No more no less.********* So that would mean that you are a firm believer that record sales and notoriety make you a better musician You outdid yourself there. Oh, and by the way I am a jazz lover, no matter if I was aware of Jimmy Reece Europe (another of your condescending remarks) or not. |