Issue with dynamic range database

Got it.

Is vinyl sometimes mastered with greater dynamic range than digital releases of the same album though? Many people believe that is the case.

This is certainly true; we always try to get the file with the least amount of DSP (other than normalization) when we are mastering an LP.

But in this case the files for the LP and digital releases are the same.  If the cartridge is a MM, distortion is pretty common if the cartridge was not loaded properly. That would show up as extra energy: more 'dynamic'.

They can be mastered differently to compensate for vinyl limitations. In this case that was not done.

Ralph, sugabooger, The vinyl in the youtube video is not more dynamic than the CD, no doubt about it.. The TT meter does not work for vinyl. Is vinyl sometimes mastered with greater dynamic range than digital releases of the same album though? Many people believe that is the case.

Thank you for adding that detail Atmasphere. The voice of experience!   The author of the Youtube video was making this point. The data base is not a lab grade measurement, it is a measurement made by people with every day turntables, and probably a lot of Crossleys with USB. Most audiophiles don't digitize their records.  Most of those turntables will have lots of issues, not necessarily bad from a listening standpoint, that will render the value for the vinyl record useless.

It is not something you can modify so, who cares?

So how you can draw such conclusion - dynamic meter is false?

Steve didn't check to see how the loading was affecting the playback- in this case a high output MM cartridge was used. If you don't load those things they can make a considerable amount of lower ordered harmonic distortion which will be interpreted by the meter as 'dynamics' as its energy content not found in the original file.


The phono preamp can affect this as well depending on how stable its design actually is. The circuit needs to be immune to ultrasonic and RF energy that might exist due to the interaction between the inductance of the cartridge and the capacitance of the tonearm interconnect cable.

In a nutshell this is a red herring. The vinyl is in no way more dynamic- its just distortion. The funny thing about this is that in most audiophile conversations, the word 'dynamics' can be safely replaced with the word 'distortion' and the meaning of the conversation is unchanged.

Seems to me as a total lay person in this field, and speaking only to the question of which process is more "dynamic", that if either your input RIAA emphasis or your phono stage's RIAA compensation circuit are not perfect, then that will inevitably affect one's sense of dynamic contrasts, up or down.  So for that reason you cannot generalize unless you know you've been using "perfect" RIAA equalization, both in and out, whatever that is.  There is no point in arguing about it.

It was mentioned. However, that only validates the authors point, it does not invalidate it.  The online dynamic range data base is user generated. We can be confident the digital values are accurate as digital systems are consistent at a macro level. Analog playback systems are not. Rumble, poor equalization, poor turntable set up, will all lead to exaggerated numbers not representative of the music. This is the authors point which you seem to be missing.

sugarboober, 
What was used to get file from record (vinyl)? No mention. So how you can draw such conclusion - dynamic meter is false? 

bukanona150 posts05-16-2021 6:50amsugarboober,
he said that vinyl and cd versions was the same - he gave the same digital file to manufacture vinyl.
so he didn't know what he was doing from very beginning.
********************************************************He knew exactly what he was doing. He wanted the same presentation from both the CD copy and the vinyl copy. This is not a young guy. He has been around since vinyl. There is no reason why the two can't be the same if you want them to be the same.


You are completely missing the point. They should have the same dynamic range. They do not. The dynamic range as measured by the dynamic range meter is false. It is not accurate. It cannot be used effectively to compare CD and vinyl.  You have not presented any ideas that invalidate this premise.

mijostyn, usually engineer takes into account vinyl media. No loud passages near the middle, a little less compression, some extra tunes sometimes. More less targeted to listening at home not in the car or shopping centre. 

It is not something you can modify so, who cares?

sugarboober,
he said that vinyl and cd versions was the same - he gave the same digital file to manufacture vinyl.
so he didn't know what he was doing from very beginning.

Bukanona, he mastered the CD and vinyl. He knows what he is doing.


Miller carbon he states that the digital version sounds crisper and more dynamic even if the numbers do not. Based on some of the blowups it looks like he needed a rumble filter and probably better RIAA processing input to output. Without controlling for variables the vinyl version of the dynamic range has no meaning which I think was the point he was making.

Good example of how you can be technically thorough and fair and yet totally miss the fact vinyl does in fact wind up being more dynamic- even when cut from a digital file. He does a great job trying to explain it away. But the most relevant part is where he says there's just way too many variables so I DON'T KNOW why vinyl does this. It just does.

There is one issue about this recording - no information how he is ripped LP for comparison. So to say what he's doing is quite hard - no conditions of experiment. 
There is differences between CD and LP. Proper sound engineer keeps them in mind. 

https://www.izotope.com/en/learn/mastering-for-vinyl-tips-for-digital-mastering-engineers.html

I don't listen to vinyl, so I don't have first hand experience, so are the people who buy the vinyl because it's less compressed being fooled?

I do know that there is a lot of digital music that is overly compressed and limited, and that frequently digital remasters are.  What difference in DR numbers is significant?  2db, 3db or what?

TIA