Isolation question. Monitor on Subwoofer

...and thanks for all the fish!
Cheerio chaps.

Ship em to Rick. He can bring them and we can all compare together in August. Rick is going to move my whole system out onto the deck where Krissy and I will sip Pina colada watching the hummingbirds and relaxing while Rick sets everything up and compares springs, Pods, Podiums, speakers, cables, power cords, DACs, amps....caps, wire, direction of wire, cable elevators, rubber bands, Schumann generators.... circuit breaker panels, AC outlets, AC wire, wall board, sheet rock, carpet.... records, CDs, Hot Stampers, and streamers. If after all that Rick says the Sistrum is the bomb that is good enough for me.   

Oh, and in the interests of the OP we will even try all these different things on a rack and compare to how they sound on a sub. 

Again, you are invited to show us at the "gathering".
I'll be the first to admit I am a budget driven audiophile, when offered something triple or more the cost - it had better deliver better performance.

At least two of us are on board for technologies that produce better performance, such as isolation devices, or vibration control devices, whichever way you slice it, superior engineering practices used for the purpose of playback.

We are aware these aren't just superficial tweaks, these are as substantial as swapping into magnetic ride suspension from leaf springs.

I would like you to be proven right, you are passionate about the product, and I know it's a long way, however I'd like to know??
Can you have your stuff shipped? I will meet you half way, I'll pay for return shipping, in the exact shipping materials you send them in.
I tried some lower end stuff, and I returned them without fail, this is a friendly challenge, you're not being ignored. However there is a standard that is making headway, Townshend has been selling from reports in the forum.

If your technology is indeed superior, are you certain you don't want it known?
It will be a toe to toe match, no mistake, we'll be very open with our opinions on everything we hear, across the board.

Standing athwart history, good man!  ;)

Well Rick and Miller I still stand by my advice that I gave to Slappy 17 years..the Sistrum and Audiopoints are still most effective. Tom

Missed him by that much!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2vZonSDUgk

@avanti1960 - I am so sorry, I didn't really look at the year.
It's an old and long dead thread. Excuse me.

Actually it's not entirely without merit, using springs and the substrate to isolate both the tops and the bottoms. We've seen many smaller speakers placed on top of sub boxes, but to really isolate them extremely well??

I think there's a better way, using something like I've discussed here. Suspend the stand mounts above the subs, which are also isolated on springs.
Then have another two matching subs elsewhere in the room, as a DBA, they will match the looks, it's an interesting proposition, don't you think?

not a very smart idea for several reasons.   get some stands and move the subs.  

Missed him by that much!

The good ol' days https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/where-s-slappy-been-lately/post?postid=1152743#1152743

https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/9064#&gid=1&pid=14

This is hilde45's system page, the 5th last photo shows a stand with a sub under it. Imagine the sub with isolation, and the stand mount with isolation.

Something like that would be great.

Slappy - I was working out in the field when I read this thread. On my 80 odd mile drive home I've been thinking of your question some more.
I guess to answer it better, I'd need to ask you some pertinent questions.

The answer that's going to yield you the best results is really based upon, what you have and the technology and knowledge of those answering your questions... but really it's what you put into action.

What materials are your subs made from? Weight of subs?
Height of subs?
What stand mount speakers do you have?
What is your budget?
Are you looking for an inexpensive solution DIY, or are you after something that really delivers?

Are you interested in experimenting with a limited budget before committing to more serious and costly approach?

Straddle with spring system under the subs. And spring directly atop the upright of the the straddle table/frame decoupling the stand mounts, would probably work very effectively.

Of course working out effective spring rates for >3 hz isolation would be the key. The straddle frame wouldn’t need to be too heavily built if you use the most rigid part of the structure, the uprights to hold the sprung mass of the speakers.

Ensuring the standmounts have ample outriggers to accomodate the movement of the center of gravity remains within it’s base., to prevent it toppling over.

Clearly defined budget, aesthetics, and goals should be considered before any design and serious implementation be undertaken.

For example you could put a Townshend poudium on a frame which straddles your sub, but similar results by springs under a frame/straddle structure. You’re going to want someone to weld something up. Perhaps heavy timber could do similar.

Straddle mentioned early on is a good option in my opinion.

Peter thanks for the info. What works in our own separate worlds and experience is the most correct one at that portion of time. For you to stop at this point of time and with your open mindedness and desire for further knowledge on this particular subject would be a waste. Some of the products and techniques I have mentioned here so many times before, I feel are fundamental to the music. What I am a proponent of increases the efficiencey of any electro or mechanical device sitting on the platform or point.I have measured this acoustic gain..The detail, the gain in dynamic contrasts, the stage size, the focus all become more apparent,separate yet whole....Coherent and correct..I can tell you from the heart and the ear, isolation is not the key to the enhancement of the musical source.I can tell you there are exciting enhancements to the source that I have measured, recorded and photographed that will come to light in the next year..Tom

Tom

I did not take your response that way at all! This is what works in my system and worth a try since you can do it cheap. Threads are meant to pass along good information to other members so they can become educated and get their system to sound better. Good information can hopefully improve ones system and I still try things out every month, just ask my wife, box after box is delivered by the UPS guy/gal. The exchange of ideas has helped me over the years I have been a member on Agon.

Funny, I just got this sent to me:

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/gingko2/minicloud.html

Peter sorry for being harsh in my statement..Tom

Here is the design information on what I am offering:

Vibration robs your system of dynamics and detail, pace and general accuracy. It is everywhere even when your speakers are not creating their own and feeding it back to your equipment via your floor. The system-external sources are ever present and both naturally (geologically) and artificially created, and only vary in intensity throughout the day. Low frequency noise exists at all times in our modern environment, and in all planes, not just the horizontal or just the vertical, passing through the ground and building structures easily.

The design is a vibration isolation system to replace the existing spikes and cones that normally come with racks, stands and other bases, as a matter of current style. In simplistic terms, the idea is basically retainer cups with a rubber ball placed under them to isolate from vibration in all directions, unlike many devices that only work in one plane. Simple, yes, but this is a true pneumatic suspension. Many other devices are meant to “shift” resonance (thereby fooling the buyer into thinking that something good has happened temporarily until the listener realizes that the noises only moved a bit in frequency). Devices touted to “ground vibration” to somewhere, usually the shelf or floor they are on, “work” in that fashion. This cannot work well, as more noise comes from those than can possibly be passed to them! Spikes and cones can only be couplers, never isolators. That means that they actually help noise up right into your stands and everything on them. They cannot be “mechanical diodes”, the totally incorrect “new wives tale” most of us have seen parroted somewhere. This is a seriously misunderstood thing presently. The design is simply and more straightforwardly meant block them altogether, within the limits of performance that still allow this device to be sturdy enough to support heavy equipment, and they don't poke holes into your floor, either.

Hope this is helpful.

Peter

Tom, maybe but so far in my system and a few other systems, this works for us. It is cheap and easy to find out if it works in a system.

Peter

The mathematicial precursor to prologic, only with better seperation.More like Dolby digital in effect..Way back in the early 70's..When the colors were more colorfull. Tom

Quadrophonic is that when an audiophile's wife is expecting quadruplets?

No the one on the right had eyes that were more to the south and a complexion that had slightly more contrast and texture than her counterpart to the right who had more highlights and who's edge enhancement was slightly more defined..They were the perfect couple.. or in stereo the perfect four.Or maybe that was how Quadrophonic was meant to be..Tom

Tom, think maybe you where just seeing in Stereo?

I think they were hired to entertain the troops at a booth at the Cedia AV show and clubs to the northeast of downtown Indianapolis just last weekend..Thats what I saw and I think I remember..They shared the same chair and were friendly with each other and anyone else for that matter...Tom

just give me the doublemint twins & I'll be happy

Hmmm.. Hot Gothic Twin Psychos.....
Man that sounds like more trouble than any man should have to endure.
laugh

Dark & Without Life = Identical Twin "GOTH" Psycho Chicks!

ummm...I guess I'm speechless on this one...looks like I'll be staying with my original setup...lol...so what's that you're saying slappy...you'll have a couple of hot psycho twins lined up for us when I get there...man...could be cool...I just got over one psycho...so I think I can hang...about the bacon though...hahahaha

Dark and without life, but otherwise ok?
Heh. I dunno if i like the sound of that! :)

Mids will not be smeared because the leading edge transients will be be damped into oblivion.. unlike the real thing..Whats remains will be dark and without life..Other than that it will be okay..Tom

Slappy I have your total solution. First get spikes on the bottowm of the subs and put bags of lead shoot (many) to get them almost bolted to the floor. Get a slab of wood 2" thick and get PVC pipe and glue them to the bottom of the slab in each corner. Buy 4 raquet balls and place the speakers on top of the slab and put the 4 raquet balls under the slab where the PVC meets the sub squashing down on the balls. This will give you great bass and reduce the vibration so your mids won't be smeared.

I have tried too many options and this really works, it also works perfect for amp stands. Another Agon buddy didn't thiink it would work with his Wolcott mono blocks but he now swears that he can crank it up to ear bleeding levels and when he touches the amps, no vibration.

Happy Listening and whatever else you're into!!

Bacon for good measure? Don't let Killerpiglet hear that!

Is not that what Slim Pickens yelled as he rode the A-bomb down from the sky to its final destination in the pro humanity movie Dr.Strangelove..Tom

Just like *Reservoir Dogs* and *Snatch* Slappy.

Man this system is gonna be sweet!

Where the hell is Ellery911? he would enjoy this one.

Thinking of Ellery, looks like he is gonna make it down here for the Rocky Mountain Audio Fest.
I better get crackin on finding some Cute Psycho-Twins, some Pump Monoblocks, Purse Pre-amp, Chinese Love Swings, Wolverines, Spanish Fly, Hockey Gear, Medeival Armor, Audiopoints, and a Noose..... better get a package of bacon for good measure.

Thats a hell of a shopping list. Hopefully i can get it all set up so when Ellery visits he can try out the noose.

then i'll need to get some shovels, plasit bags, a hacksaw, some limesalt, and an air freshener and no witnesses.

MWA HA HA HA HA HA HA

This is what I'll call the *New Room Tune Method*
Jest Hangin Mang, Jesta Hangin !
Any Beta Testers ?

Gunbei, If your smart, you'd best stay away from Slappy's house for a while (just call him) till he gets *this system* worked out and fine tuned with others.

Rx8man, Hangin out at Slappy's, now has a whole new meaning!

...Or likely to remember. Heheh.

Slappy, you really need to buy the Music Pump Monoblocks and Purse Preamp from Gilbert Yeung. Remember, you must match the audio equipment to the chicks.

You would need identical twin twisted sisters for suspended psycho chicks to keep everything timbre matched. Go get busy! Put that natural spanish fly of yours to work, as you have virtual system pictures to take! Just remember Slaximus "What We Do In Life Echoes In Eternity"!

Alright Slappy,
Time to get serious, after you get your speakers suspended, find the *sweetspot* (where it sounds best) and locate a point directly *above* that. (plum-bob works)
Suspend another length of wire from your vaulted ceiling at that point to about 3.5 feet above the floor.
Create a noose at the end of the line and invite your friend(s) over for a listening session they'll never forget !!

Maybe i can mount couple hot psycho chicks in some chinese-love swings over the subwoofers with a monitor strapped to thier chest, with a pair of wolverines beneath the subwoofers. I can top it off by using those Amplifier shoes in that other thread and put em on the psycho's feet to amplify the monitors. Even throw in some of those Flower speakers for good measure.
I can sit there in my Medeival Combat Hockey Goalie attire and take audiopoint slapshots at the psychos if they start fidgiting.

Man, this isolation/coupling thing is pretty insane! Imagine the Pic i would put in my virtual system!

Gunbei, After Slappy just mentioned his Gladiator style bedroom attire, ceiling mounting with stainless or chains like the Bose 901 fad may not be a good idea? As with his slaves, subs, & hot psycho chicks, I'm just not grasping the school children style swing variety! I don't even wanna know what he ment of his statement "My Sweet Spot"!!!

"as my speakers swing like schoolchildren on the jungle gym".

This could create for some cool ass imaging. It'll make Diana Krall sound like she's drowning or being blown around in the wind.

RX8 i have thought about that, but i was never sure if it would be a good idea or not. There are vaulted ceilings in my room that are about 10 feet above where the left speaker will be and about 16 feet above the right speakers location.

i guess there is no reason i couldnt do that, however, on a nice breezy day if my windows are open my sweetspot will be rather intermittant as my speakers swing like schoolchildren on the jungle gym. (laugh)

Yeah, as Rx8Man suggests Spectra-Line might be a good choice. It doubles well as an assassination wire like in Marathon Man.

The other thing I'm thinking is that even if the sub and monitors aren't touching, but still in very close proximity, the massive movement of the sub's driver may have an effect on the movement of the monitor's woofer. It might affect the midrange.

The reason I bring this up is that I've had a couple experiences WAY in the past and fairly recently where a monitor's woofer affected a passive slave sub's driver.

So Slappy, you've got yourself slaves, subs, straddling, fishing line and hot psycho chicks. Why are you still here with us?!!!

Slappy, Full Combat Gear, wow that makes for a SCARY visual! LOL
No wonder your looking to isolate, prior to swinging your Bat.

Slappy,
One more idea: Any stainless fishing line ?
Suspend and cradle monitors from ceiling 'just above' the subs ?
Just an after thought bud, sorta like the levitating act.