Is tube sound vs solid state easier to distinguish using headphones?
Well designed tube amplifiers and solid state amplifiers in general sound remarkably similar with a wide range of music. The slight holographic and imaging properties that tubes can allegedly portray over certain solid state designs is what brings people to the “tube sound” camp. My question for the audiophiles here is whether it’s even detectable in most speaker setups or does a high quality pair of headphones showcase the tube sound qualities more accurately due to their near-field nature?
After owning Hafler, NYAL Moscode,B&K, Mitsubishi, and Discrete Technology separate amps,as well as many receivers and integrated amps, my view is that it’s pretty easy to tell a good tube amp from a solid state amp with good speakers without headphones It’s the clarity through the mids and highs of my Dynaco and VTA tube amps thatbrings that holographic soundstage. What reasonably priced tubes generally don’t do as well on is bass authority, |
I have had both a headphone system and main speaker system for the last fifty years. I have constantly upgraded both systems as I gained experience and wealth. I have spent an enormous amount of time listening to headphone systems, first as an exploration geologist that spent about 8 - 10 hours a day driving in the middle of no where and then as an executive that would travel a lot. When home I would listen to my main system. Most of my experience was with all kinds of amps, but for a year or more each. The most important trend of my systems was the move to tubes over time. All of my components are now tubed. That to me says everything. Never has my systems sounded nearly as good. While it is definitely true that SS and tube gear have approached each other. Good quality tube gear sounds more like music… gets out of the way; has better rhythm and pace and emotional connection. This is apparent, I’d have to say equally apparent in headphone or speakers systems… but highly dependent on the particular system. I have carefully chosen systems designed to be detailed a musical… and in mine, the magic of the tubes is easy to discern, although they in no way sound tubey. |
Not sure about headphones because I've never had the occasion to listen to my cans with tube gear. But I can instantly tell the difference between my SS and tube amps. Even with my very modest set up. In fact, I was just about to start a thread with the title of "Aaaahhhh". I love my Hegel H360 integrated but just put my Rogue tube amp and tube pre combo back in the mix and everything just sounds more right to me. Not sure if this answers your question but there it is. |
I have 3 headphones systems for my RAAL CA-1a (sold the SR1a last month and will buy the next RAAL phone release).
With some tube rolling that was done by the manufacturer the V-1a is about 40% better than the other 2. I used to say about 15% better but I purchased the VM-1a for the second time and got a different tube (1 of 6). This tube made the separation with the other 2 systems greater. What I hear is more power, more clarity and detail, more smoothness. I knew this was the case since I owned this amp before but now the VM-1a is even better. Until I had owned the VM-1a (now discontinued) I would have never thought a tube based amp would have ALL the attributes I just described. This week, RAAL has come out with a new TOTL headphone that they are saying is the best sounding phone in the world. I thought the CA-1a and SR1a were something special. However, when I heard the comments from Alex at RAAL on this new phone (the best he has ever made), I immediately sold my SR1a and bought the VM-1a amp (again). The new phone is called the Immanis and goes for about $10k. I may buy this one or wait for something else they come up with. All I know is that for these future phones I will get, I wanted the very best amplification for them and for me it is the tube based VM-1a. BTW - I have not found a tube based setup (preamp or DAC) that made me as happy as my Class A and SS gear on my 2-channel. Now I have not tried a lot of tube gear with 2-channel. I have no interest in doing so since I love my 2-channel setups. |
I started in high-end headphones before I went to speakers. No, headphones are absolutely not giving you insights that can’t be gleaned from good speaker setup. If anything, it’s the opposite. The driver technology and R&D investments put into headphones, even high end models, generally lags far behind that of high-end speakers. Headphones can be really good (particularly electrostats), but end of day I get more insights and enjoyment from my Tannoys. Tube amp performance is highly dependent on the load they’re coupled to, but that’s a factor for both headphones and speakers. Speakers pose the bigger challenge, with lower impedances and the need for much higher power levels - necessitating large expensive PSU’s and huge output transformers (for non-OTL designs). So again - on speakers, tube amps will generally display bigger sonic differences versus each other and versus comparable SS amps. Of course there are exceptions, and some of the OTL tube headphone amps popular in the 2000s featured extremely high output impedances which had a MASSIVE effect (coloration) on the distortion profile and frequency response of most headphones. Though damn, did that ever sound good in some case ("flat" headphones often run the risk of being an incredibly boring listen). The usual cited advantage for headphones as an evaluation tool is getting the room out of the equation - and that’s true to some extent. But the reality is that the headphone frame/chassis/cups, in combination with your head & ears, serves as a defacto "room" by which the sound is colored anyways. Also, I’ve never had any problem taking an audio component over to a friend’s speaker system (completely different room) and hearing the exact same sonic signature & net effect as I did in my own room. As long as you don’t pick an awful room (closet, greenhouse), pick a very wrongly sized speaker for a given setup, or totally botch the setup & positioning optimizations - I think the effect of room acoustics has been a bit overplayed online in the last (say) 15 years. Acoustic panel makers love to sell...panels. But for me, the components you choose and their "synergistic" combination has been easily the dominant factor in whether a system will be enjoyable or just chum for the audiogon classified waters. |
This is not even wrong... All usual living room share more common defects together than any other things ... The only exception are rare room made of some ideal acoustic component materials for ceilings floor and walls with the optimal dimensions and optimal geometry for a speakers type... You forgot to compare from ordinary living room then to dedicated acoustic room at some level of optimization ( mine used 100 Helmoltz tuned resonators among others devices ) ... There is not a shred of similarity between any living room even the best one and a dedicated room designed for a specific speakers-system-ears-brain... None... I know it firsthand... Because i designed my room ... 😁
What has been very overplayed are the supposed very important difference between two relatively good pieces of gear when people bored by their "sound" decided to upgrade toward a costlier piece of gear because anyway they dont have the dedicated room to improve acoustic or they dont have the time to do acoustics experiments or they dont have the knowledge to do it really , and if you are not creative anyway, a dedicated acoustics room cost more than a high end system most of the times... These are the reasons why acoustics is downplayed by some audiophiles...
You cannot downplay the importance of acoustics... And acoustics included not only room acoustic but many other fields as psychoacoustics and material physical acoustic, speakers acoustic etc ... I modified my small speakers porthole and waveguide according to acoustics basic... My speakers which i hated are now top high end in their design and price category...
This is even true for headphones internal chamber of the shell and his content and geometry...
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I’ve never done direct comparisons between tubed & solid state headphone amps but have many times over 40+ years w/ speakers albeit it never involved the recent super high solid state amps of $30 K + or so. We all know the negative aspects of tubed amps which are enough to turn off many folks ( heat, tube replacement costs, potential lack of full frequency extension at both ends in lesser designs etc.). The full bodied, rich, 3 dimensional sound w/ air & space around every instrument or singer in a good recording is very challenging for most solid state amps to achieve & im not sure if those qualities would be as apparent using headphones. |
@jonwolfpell Agreed - and the wonderful spatial qualities of a great 2ch system are definitely not there in even the very best headphone setups. Back on the topic of acoustics - because the end product of "what we hear and enjoy" goes through so much processing and interpretation in our brains, I think it’s possible there are significant personal differences in "how much" someone hears the room versus the primary sound source, proportionally. |
This is called psychoacoustics... We can even adress some psychoacoustics factors in a room in a way or in another... I did it... These psychoacoustics factors matter as much if not more than any dac or amplifier or speakers design... For example: All stereo systems are plagued by crosstalk effect... An upgrade of a piece of gear will not correct that... Most people had no idea of the acoustic information losses in all stereo system anyway... The different way any piece of gear process the acoustic information matter less than crosstalk effects most of the times if the gear pieces are minimally relatively good to begin with because the crosstalk information loss is huge... The only exception to this will be comparing the information loss from a bad low cost system compared with one good high end one in the same living room ...
This make no sense to me because the source is not a turntable or a digital files, these are mere processing tools, it is the recording acoustics information content resulting from choices of the engineer using his mics craftmanship to record in a specific room; my systems/room must translate this for my ears and give me back this "source" of acoustic timbre, spatial information in an immersive faithfull way. Second i dont hear my room , i hear because my room is acoustically optimized, i hear the acoustic information of the original recording... For example i hear the Organ recorded in a church as if i was in the church not in my room..i dont hear my speakers as if the sound was coming from them at all, they disapear completely and the same must be true for headphones,but it is very rare for headophone to be the case... Perhaps the RAAL will do it better though compared to my Akg K340 modified as they did it already in a realistic acceptable speaker like way...No other headphones i used do it at all ...
You speak as if the gear pieces choices were the main factor. Marketing want to convince us that it is such. It is false even if for sure all pieces of gear are different and their synergy matter... But gear choices is the starting point of audiophiles, as it was for me; but in truth the room and all acoustics factors (ears-head measures included ) is the beginning and the end and what really matter the most...
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Gear choices are important because we begin by buying some... They are less important once they are done wisely because the real work begin after ... What matter after a synergetical system is bought ,AT ANY PRICE, is the way we mechanically, electrically and acoustically embed it in these three workings dimensions... Acoustics here is one but the more important one... Most speakers are more revealing of all acoustics factors at play than most headphones yes.But i must correct you, It is not true in all cases, and it is not true for my AKG K340 and probably not for the RAAL if we trust the owner above... i apologize for my insistence though ...because you are really a kind person ...My deepest respect...
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