Is this the end of HEA?
http://www.cepro.com/article/is_this_the_end_of_high_performance_audio_at_ces
This last year has made my ears perk up. Honestly I didn't even know the article above had been written until now. What I did know was listeners have been in touch with me about the future of HEA and their future as advanced listeners. It's been nice to see folks getting in touch with me and even nicer that they are doing so because they wish to settle into their final system sound. To say things in their words "it's been an expensive ride" and most of these folks aren't sure they've gotten a fair shake always from the hobby. Many feel they have bank rolled a part of a hobby that hasn't always delivered the goods. Basically instead of telling listeners that this is a variable hobby the "experts" pushed a very expensive game of component Plug & Play onto the discrete audio generation. I remember those days of guilt buying where a dollar amount was used as a representative for quality, when it meant no such thing. I knew first hand this was not the case as designers scrambled to make up-sell products that sounded less musical than the original products that put their name in audio fame. I also could see the HEA decline happening but still was giving the benefit of the doubt to those saying HEA was just fine and growing. Mom and pop stores for the most part have vanished in the US with the exception of a few creative thinkers. New expensive products are being adored but I don't see many actually buying them. Now I've got my eye on T.H.E. Show (Richard's show) and wondering if it's happening or not. Richard and I have talked many times about what will happen to HEA in the US if T.H.E. Show and CES cease doing their thing in Vegas. I wonder what Richard RIP is thinking now sitting in the clouds.
I am very excited to see the next few years come about even though I know some are still buying into the old paradigm that the HEA is the cutting edge with only a volume control to adjust and a fork lift included with every purchase. Going to the CES web, I have my answer for Vegas. Going to T.H.E. Show website I'm still in question. If these two are no more, in terms of HEA, who's next?
Michael Green
| Post removed |
Keep in mind that the end of HEA does not mean the end of the audiophile. The audiophile and audiophile market is stronger than ever. Nor does this mean the expensive products will stop being built in the near future for those who believe they are the way to go. The end of HEA simply means the paradigm has changed from old to new. Higher price to lower price Higher mass to lower mass Higher heat to lower heat More crossover parts to fewer Fixed sound to variable sound One volume control to more control Harder to drive to easier to drive Playing less to able to play more mg |
Low mass speaker drivers are a trade off. Standard speaker drivers typically move more air than dipole drivers, thus deliver lower bass frequencies and greater dynamics. How are we defining low mass systems? Taking the transformer out of the chassis and relocating it elsewhere doesn’t reduce the total mass, just redistributes it. Removing the chassis cover does reduce total mass. |
Geoffkait, what have you to say about this driver; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Motion_Transformer |
Michael Green may be right. It is shifting. "Higher price to lower price" It is not that the price is substantially lower, it is that advancements in technology made same quality available at lower price. Of course, there could be a debate if iPhone is really lower price (they seem to go up in price with every generation).
Most of the people got used to having it all and having it small, in their pockets, thanks to advancements in technology
Advancements in technology and nothing else.
Almost everything electronic has fewer parts these days, when compared to the same functionality in the past. Advancements in technology. "Fixed sound to variable sound" Sound modes have been available on receivers etc. for a few decades now. With advancements in technology and science, it is possible to have variable sound on new smaller devices.
Advancements in technology made it simpler to add controls of whatever kind we desire.
Advancements in technology provide for more diverse combinations.
Advancements in technology allow us to listen to distant radio stations/Internet and explore what was impossible before. All in all, the paradigm is shifting and majority is moving away from bulky, seemingly built complicated, equipment. However, it is not because they read through the HEA conspiracy and do not want to be fooled anymore. It is because advancements in technology made things possible that could not be achieved in the past and people like convenience. |
Right now, people are complaining because nothing (relatively) is being sold; that's because there are fewer people who desire HEW products that can afford them; they're in the boneyard. If you have been observant, you'll realize that the people who inherit these HEA items, are in a quandary as to what to do with them. |
What do we care what they do with them? Make a planter out of my speakers. We are on to other things. Also, I think the main problem is the cost, at this time. Even used prices are above a sensible man's level of comfort. A secondary problem is customer base croaking, but getting more severe in next decade as posters and buyers on this site go silent, or enter headphone days as others take control of us. |
I started this thread a while back, the same general topic. The consensus was that HEA is in better shape now than we generally assume... https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/i-wonder-how-many-audiophiles-there-are-these-days |
The premier high end store Excalibur in Alexandria closed circa 1986. They even had the monster Infinity Reference System. It’s been downhill in HEA ever since. Meyer-Emco, Audio Associates also long time gone. The Paragon of Sound in MD long gone. It takes big bucks to stay the in the game. The big 50x50 room I was in with Tenor and Rockport at Tuscany Hotel in Vegas was something like 50 big ones for 4 days. Mapleshade stopped going to CES twenty years ago. Money talks, nobody walks. |
My 19 year old son just came in while I was reading this discussion chain. I summarized the sentiment of this forum and asked him for his opinion. I should begin by saying for the last 4-5 years he has watched (and listened) as my system evolved from mid level to higher level gear. (Odyssey pre and amps, Magnepan 1.7i, then to Pass Labs, Focal 1038be2, cable upgrades, now to my current Scala Utopias). He has always enjoyed coming into my listening room to hear how the songs he knows so well (from his earbuds and Bluetooth speakers), sound on my system, as well as discovering new music together. He is hooked, to say the least, and I have given him the gear I have moved up from, for him to enjoy in his own space once he has graduated from University. He said this is important to him and he values the degree to which high end audio can deliver. He looks very much forward to the day when he can hook up the components he has inherited! I would agree with the poster who said, 'they don't know it until they hear it'. This is very true as most of his friends haven't been exposed to high quality audio equipment, but when they have a listen, they hear what it has to offer and it does make an impression. What they choose to do with that will depend on their income, lifestyle and many other factors. So perhaps it is best for those who seem to worry that HEA is dying, to listen to their systems with young people, but listen to THEIR music, not yours, and you just might find you've helped to create the next generation audiophile. |
Who are we? I mean the people engaged in these conversations. Most of us are seniors from what I can surmise. To begin with, we have a common desire for HEA; that's because we know what a difference it makes in the recorded music we listen to, and we can distinguish between good, also ran, and the top tier; hence, the demand is exclusively "us'. There will be no new people to replace "us". Many people can't tell the difference between good "mid fi" and HEA. Those people are not about to pay the gigantic difference in price between the two. We have digital that's dirt cheap, and analog that's through the sky; which is going to sell when not everyone can tell the difference? Before, I thought this HEA slowdown had to do with economics, now I'm not so sure, but I'm glad I'm on the buying end as opposed to the selling end. This circle will get smaller and smaller, plus even more expensive for the truest of HEA; that I believe is the answer to your question; although we can rationalize something with new technology is cheaper, is it HEA? |
I have two responses to the end of HEA conundrum. 1 - Most music listeners, regardless of generation, have never spent a substantial amount of money on audio. There were always a select few who invested in anything beyond a small console stereo or component setup. The question isn't if HEA is dead as much as we delude ourselves in thinking its proliferation was ever as great as we like to reminisce. 2 - The challenge for this hobby is that there is way too much conversation about the stuff and not the music, which is what drew me to wanting to invest more into the enjoyment of music, not the comparable transient difference between cables, blah, blah, blah. If you want to turn people off, start talking about the difference between silver and copper wiring in your speaker wire. But when I play a contemporary song on my system, the interest increases immediately for members of the younger generation. They literally say, "I've never heard that song sound that way before." Will this lead to investment of thousands of dollars of equipment for most people … no. I don't have a stereo in hopes that all my friends will follow suit. But to the degree that I can enjoy a greater listening opportunity with the music I love, I'm more than happy to invest my time and money. I also push back against the issue of cost of truly HEA at events. I've never been to a consumer show of any kind, where manufacturers displayed their low to middle end products. Even Chevrolet puts the latest Corvette ZO6 on display, recognizing that most people will never step up to that model. It's called a hallo affect. Consumers are more than capable of buying below the top of the line when the opportunity exists. That might suggest that manufacturers should bring down list models to shows to give people a sense of what is attainable within a brand. |
Real good points @mustbethemusic. Very few people these days just sit and listen to music, as a destination activity. Many people just like a particular song by any given entertainer (as opposed to artist ;-), and are not necessarily interested in the album that song is on. I have spent much of the leisure time in my life listening intently to music, as I believe have many others here. For us, a good system is a worthwhile investment, as it provides deeper immersion into music. For those to whom music is not as important, a good system is not necessary. There ARE young people really into music---I saw a bunch of them looking through the LP racks at Music Millennium in Portland yesterday. I found a new/unopened copy of Lucinda Williams' 2011 album Blessed, the limited edition deluxe version, sale priced at $19.99. The CD floor was almost deserted! |
CES is dying it’s a dealer show. Costs a fortune to attend...and everyone with a soul hates Vegas, no one wants to go there. Audio shows all over the world are thriving and growing. The death of CES for audio is tied to the growth of those other shows. So no, high end audio is not going anywhere. In the grand scale of time, sure it’s a goner. But in the now.... not so much. |
Mustbethemusic, me and an audiophile friend of mine auditioned an "affordable" SS ARC preamp that was loaned to me, and we didn't get very far into the first record before we declared it a "no show". Anytime I have auditioned bottom of the line "affordable" gear with a big time name, I have experienced the same results. HEA is expensive for the average person, there is no getting around it, and just because a piece of gear has a high end moniker, does not make it HEA. |
Orpheus - I understand your reference point. My point is that two buck chuck audio as in two buck chuck wine is fine for some but not necessarily for those who have developed a more refined pallet. The challenge or opportunity is can we set our own refined taste aside long enough to allow others to enjoy their version of low-high end audio? I believe we create false exclusivity by calling ourselves audiophiles. I'm not sure what the term really means. I was shocked when I was called an audiophile when I mentioned I listened to vinyl. I find the term misplaced and intimidating frankly. The way some of us toss around technical jargon, I forget that we are even talking about music. As I listen to Wayne Shorter - Hear No Evil, if i'm thinking about my gear versus immersing myself into the content, then I've not only gone to far over the high end audio pursuit, I've forgotten what drew me into this hobby in the first place. Maybe we need to remind ourselves that its HEA for the sake of the music, not the music for the sake of HEA. if we forget this then HEA should die, because we sucked all the life out of it. |
The "audiophile" designation has absolutely nothing to do with my ability to hear; I gave a friend of mine that designation because he could hear even better than me. Are you saying just because a piece of gear is ARC, or CJ, or Sota, that it's supposed to sound good? The challenge or opportunity is can we set our own refined taste aside long enough to allow others to enjoy their version of low-high end audio? I have absolutely no idea what you meant by that statement? My statement meant precisely what I said; those three refined names produced "crap", but it was at a low price. My taste has nothing to do with someone else not being able to recognize that fact, and if they didn't, I fail to understand how that would further the cause of HEA. In regard to music, I am the OP of the thread "Jazz For Aficionados", that has been on this forum for years; my credentials in regard to music speak for themselves. |
I got to know quite well the manager of the Classical department at my local Tower Records. He had a very negative opinion of what he referred to as audiofools---those who care more about the sonic quality of a recording than its’ artistic content. My argument that the former could be a limiting factor in the listeners’ ability to perceive the latter was met with a blank stare. That manager was a big fan of Leonard Bernstein, which was in a way perfect; Bernstein’s recordings are high in artistic content, somewhat low in sound quality. I hate when that happens; a lot of my favorite Pop (non-Classical) music and artists were also recorded in mediocre or worse sound quality. I'm too much of an audiophile to not care, too much of a music lover to let that stop me from listening to it and them. |
Another CES article from Jan 30 2017 http://hometheaterreview.com/high-end-audio-at-ces-a-post-mortem/ |
There are enough factors working against HEA in the United States to "guarantee" it's demise. Besides the factors mentioned, poverty is working it's way up the ladder of success; too many poor people who can not buy what the next man up the ladder is selling, which means that man can not buy what the guy on the rung higher than him is selling. Necessities come first; guess where HEA ranks? Evidently, A'goners are way up the ladder, because I have never encountered a group of people so unaware of poverty. Only the rich will completely escape this inevitable, but fairly slow movement as it works it's way up the ladder of success. Speaking of the rich; when I was in Real Estate, I came in contact with very wealthy people, and all I ever saw was a beautiful console. Since I was there on business, the conversation never strayed; no casual conversation for the peasants they encounter when necessary. |
I spent a lot of time in high end emporiums when such places existed, and many of the people were middle income, who explained to me, that it's a matter of priorities; they would rather have HEA than an expensive car like their friends. I don't believe even those middle incomes are in abundance like they used to be. |
Another clue was the decision by John Curl and Bob Crump around twenty years ago - my how time flies! - to design and produce what are probably best referred to as entry level high end, I.e., more affordable, products like JC-1, and abandon their efforts as CTC (Crump, Thompson and Curl) the last year they showed their fabulous but expensivo Bar B Q amplifier and Blowtorch preamp way back in 2000, having had the foresight to realize that dog won’t hunt. 🐩 |
The "audiophile" designation has absolutely nothing to do with my ability to hear; I gave a friend of mine that designation because he could hear even better than me. Are you saying just because a piece of gear is ARC, or CJ, or Sota, that it’s supposed to sound good? The challenge or opportunity is can we set our own refined taste aside long enough to allow others to enjoy their version of low-high end audio? I have absolutely no idea what you meant by that statement? My statement meant precisely what I said; those three refined names produced "crap", but it was at a low price. My taste has nothing to do with someone else not being able to recognize that fact, and if they didn’t, I fail to understand how that would further the cause of HEA. In regard to music, I am the OP of the thread "Jazz For Aficionados", that has been on this forum for years; my credentials in regard to music speak for themselves. Orpheus10 - Dude - I was supporting your statement generally. My point is that in many areas of interests, music, cars, food, too many of us decide that any variation from our own standards deem everything else a piece of s---. What I understand best about this hobby is that "sounds good" is quite subjective and differs from what people have been exposed to or what they are willing to invest. I’m saying that we should allow them to enjoy their audio experience at a level below what is considered HEA by others. That would reduce the intimidation factor and encourage more folks to participate without fear of being shamed because they have no idea how great $100,000 speakers sound. The fact that you need to roll out "your credentials" like some cock measuring contest may attest to your music acumen but otherwise indicates that you are pretty tone deaf to varied opinions, even when they support your premise. |
I have been watching this thread with interest as I reflect in my own history. When I was in the Army 50 years ago, I got hooked on “good” music by a friend. To me at that time it was a system of a Dual turntable, Sansui Sp100 speakers and a seperate tuner and amo/preamp combo. It was light years above the all in one cheap turntable combo I had. An Akai reel to reel was added and I was in heaven. It was a qunatum leap beyond what I had ever had or owned. Returning home, I lusted after the McIntosh gear, but it was Far beyong my means. Over the years I has decent stereo, that always pleased me. Gear came and went, nothing seriously expensive, but I was always about the music, not the gear. Fast forward to a successful career and disposible income. I make a killing in a side hobby of selling rare coins about 13 / 14 years ago and had the funds to but McIntosh 501s to drive 3.6 Maggies. I Love the sound and the music in dimensions I had not experienced before, yet I love the same music no less. It is all about the music for me. I am just blessed to be able to afford some great gear! Money has fiven me extra pleasure, but I was happy with decent gear before I coukd afford a more expensive system. It is anagous to cars in a strange way. I was happy with a Honda Accord, but you will have to rip the Mercedes E400 out of my hands. At the end of the day, it is about what you can afford in the things that are important to you. I would still be happy with my former toys, and appreciate them for what they were. I am just lucky to have othet choices. |
OP is insightful. For most of my audiophile journey, the manufacturers and reviewers held the power, promising me euphoria, as I hung on their every word, and gazed at every ad. They were able to keep me in a state of constant yearning and ever-hopeful purchasing. One day I felt a switch from others telling me what would make me happy, to the power returning to me to use personal discernment in choosing what made me happy. It was an epiphany to go to Axpona with the singular goal of finding what made me happy. I knew it when I heard it, and it was simpler and less expensive than expected. There may be some tweaks but I have reached end-game, with a satisfying immunity to the dreammakers and technology hawkers. |
In order to talk about HEA (High End Audio), we may need to establish some definition of it. It is inconvenient, if not impossible, so we conveniently do not mention it. CES is Consumer Electronics Show. It is not, and was never meant to be, High End Audio Show. So-called High End might have been more represented there in the long-gone times when consumer electronics consisted of barely anything more than music reproduction devices. As the field expanded, High End Audio become less relevant. In some way, it could soon still be called CES (Car Electronics Show). |
Here’s an important post "For most of my audiophile journey, the manufacturers and reviewers held the power, promising me euphoria, as I hung on their every word, and gazed at every ad. They were able to keep me in a state of constant yearning and ever-hopeful purchasing." ____________________________________________ The HEA revolving door was a plan to keep people buying, and we did. We kept buying till we got to the point where we became the masters of our own sound. From that point on our systems sounded better than reviewed systems and trade show setups. Lets be honest HEA trade show setups sound pretty bad. There haven’t been many good sounding shows since the mid 1990’s. The HEA selling machine started to loose clients around that same time. I don’t see this as a bad thing but good thing, we matured as listeners. Reviewers and reviews are here to get us started. From that point forward your sound is up to you. The more advanced we get as listeners the more we move away from the starting gate and get onto the exploring of music. Every week I have people coming to me because they are in the middle of their soundstage and want to take it further. They want or have moved beyond the sales pitch and have gotten serious about the hobby of Tuning in their music. How many of them read this forum? Probably a few, but mostly these are guys and gals who have entered a deeper exploration stage that goes past brands and on to a "Method of Listening" (Method of Tuning). MG |
glupson1,648 posts12-29-2018 11:23pmIn order to talk about HEA (High End Audio), we may need to establish some definition of it. It is inconvenient, if not impossible, so we conveniently do not mention it. CES is Consumer Electronics Show. It is not, and was never meant to be, High End Audio Show. >>>>Huh? Then how come I participated in a system at CES that was valued at $300,000 and won best of show? And what was that Cable Cooker doing in the room? And all those isolation stands? And how come I participated in the John Curl/Bob Crump Room when they were at the peak of High End Audio with their Blowtorch preamp and Bar B Q amp? I was with Mapleshade and Gallo, too. And with Golden Sound, with BWS preamp, five isolation systems, Ultra Tweeters, 8 ft tall Golden Sound speaker’s, Tweaks included Brilliant Pebbles, water bowls and photos in the freezers. Those systems are the very definition of High End Audio. Hel-loo! |
Here is the even more "important" part of the post below by @electroslacker "One day I felt a switch from others telling me what would make me happy, to the power returning to me to use personal discernment in choosing what made me happy."I too remember that day and yes, it was a good day. Regarding the end of HEA....I would add, "as you knew it." Just because things change, such as the way we purchase stuff, attendance at trade shows, the demise of B&M stores, and the desire for endless tweaking and cable changes, doesn’t mean people don’t appreciate and enjoy good-sounding music in their homes. High end sound is becoming possible with simpler, less elaborate systems using efficient Class D amplification, DACs with high quality volume controls, streaming sources with no physical media, powered speakers (Kii Three), and generally less boxes and cables. |
Mustbethemusic, maybe Mitch2 communicated your philosophy in regard to HEA? In regard to music and equipment; I have custom speakers that are designed to say nothing; I mean they do the same thing as the electronics I prefer; they say nothing. My point is, there is nothing more important than what the artist is trying to say, and I want to hear every nuance; nothing more or less. |
geoffkait, CES is Consumer Electronics Show. It is not, and was never meant to be, High End Audio Show.In order to get an answer to your question, you should have read my sentences that immediately followed those you are referring to. Selectively picking will get you, well, to appear desperate to counteract for no reason. Here is what followed, so you do not have to go looking... "So-called High End might have been more represented there in the long-gone times when consumer electronics consisted of barely anything more than music reproduction devices. As the field expanded, High End Audio become less relevant." |
| Post removed |
Glubson, you should leave the house sometime. What happens in Vegas stays in Vegas. High end audio has always been part of CES. T.H.E. Show might as well have been The High End Show. Been there done that. There’s something for every taste. Even mid fi for your taste. I am considering letting you win an argument this year as you seem to be getting a complex. |
Like many here, it seems, I started my journey into home HEA (if not as an audiophile, at least as a well engaged audio enthusiast) back in the late seventies/early 80s. 35 years ago my wages, as a craftsman, as well as a great many of other industrial workers, was more than the wages of nearly half of America’s working men and women, today. The cost of a new 4x4 was about $8,000 and the average cost of a 3 bed family home was about $35,000. When I see so much of the audio equipment on the featured ads of Agone and Audiomart, listing for tens of thousands of dollars, I have little doubt what direction HEA is going. |
| Post removed |
