Dear Dgob, Glad to see that there are still persons interested in,eh, philosophy of science and logic. But Kant
was convinced that Aristotelian logic was 'perfect'. He was still 'captive' in 'subject-predicate' sentence form.
But Frege was the first to explain 4 different logical facts 'included' in 'S-P' sentence form. Kant of course asked many important questions but he was not able to answer them. He had no clue about 'quatifiers' nor
the quantification theory. He was still working with 'concepts' while Frege was also the first to state that 'sentence','proposition' or 'statement' should be the
basic of any logical or linquistic investiation. So to be
honest I am still wondering why is Kant known to every German and only few have ever heard of Frege. BTW there are onbelivable more studens of Frege in the USA then in Germanny.
Regarding Raul. I admire this guy very much and he knows what I think of him as person and intellectual. But I was
confused about his statements or the way he put his convictions in words. Nothing to do with English but with
his thougts. My questions ,particulary, with his use of the
quantifier 'all' was an attemt to understand what he 'realy meant'. Alas I discovered that is not always possible to underatand each other complete.
Regards,
|
Why has noone stated the obvious? Raul has let out his inner "Valley Girl" (or Valley Girl Sith) and the Technics 100CMk4 is just.. like... well you know, like, just the best! |
Remember Obi-Wan Kenobi in Star Wars III ?
"Only a Sith deals in absolutes...."...... |
I picked up a NOS Technics EPC-P100C-MK4 and have been playing it for about a week now. I might disagree with some of Raul's rants, but this cartridge is absolutely wonderful.
Just looking at the straight frequency response is very impressive. It lookes like someone has used a ruler!
This cartridge has amazing transparency and see thru nature all the way from the mids and upper frequencies. There is zero brightness or any tendancy for edge. The bass is different in that it does not have the weight of say my Ortofon A90. This has got better over time so will no doubt get better.
It is quite amazing how good my 30 year old Exclusive P3 DD table with 28 year old EPC-P100C-MK4 is sounding. You do begin to wonder how far analog front ends have come in 30 years if at all.
BTW, I prefer tubes over any SS amps & phono stages I have heard in my system. Not there is anything wrong with SS, if it floats your boat.
cheers |
Nandric,
"Kantian apriory truths... I don't believe in any a priori truth"? I think, the Kant of the Critiques is a little more complex and useful than this. I refer to the fact that the notions regarding the "best" obviously drags up questions of "truth", "opinion" and "certainty" and these are key aspects of the radical investigations that Kant undertakes in the Critiques. Strangely, I feel that the problems that are being touched upon in this thread only reinforce that real complexity and demand an agreed and identifiably limited field of reference when we/anyone begins to make claims about 'what is the best'.
Maybe Raul would agree that his use of the term is limited to something like: "that which is most able to accurately reproduce a prerecorded event." Of course, the noted surrounding "conditions" would still leave room for variables, although these might be insignificant in a given and controlled set of circumstances. |
I applaud Raul's work, enthusiasm and sharing nature.
There is nothing wrong with the bold statement he has made, if anything it shows he has cojones de acero and demonstrates how good that cartridge is!
Those that detract or refuse to accept are not of the spirit of making this hobby fun enlightening and progressive. If Raul is wrong, he'll probably be the first to recognize it and will come forth and make a new announcement.
That link I posted a few threads back was for real and can help explain present society, do not take it for a joke. |
Dear Timeltel, My point was only that, sorry, 'unrestricted
use' of the quantifier 'all' causes many problems. In fundation of mathematics we all know, I assume, the set-theoretic paradoxes. So the mathematicians are very careful with,eh,quantification. But you already mentioned the paradoxes.I don't realy understand why Raul is so persistent with this 'absolute'. We get in this way some Kantian 'a priory truths' and I don't belive in any a priori truth. But I am sure that Raul will announce at once to his friends in his thread about the MM carts if he
discover some cart that is even better then EPC 100.
So he obviously have some other understanding of 'the best'
then some other have. One can pursuit the complete understanding with the other but why should we think that
this is possible?
Regards, |
Regards, Raul, Dertonarm: Rousseau was sometimes thought of as being more emotional than intellectual. An audiophiles' appreciation for music might be considered in similar terms.
Aristotles' "There is no accounting for taste" gives recognition to the integration of the sensitive and sensible in the individual. As there is no justification for mediocrity other than overwhelming force of circumstance, when tempered with economic, enviornmental and aesthetic concerns, these can be useful measures when examining the range between what an audiophile wants and what that audiophile needs. Arbitors can expect to sometimes find differing opinions from informed and knowledgable others. This was eliminated five centurys ago by appointed authority adopting the policy of "volonte' absolue", a factor in the reformation, the refutation of the flat earth/center of the universe beliefs, numerous revolutions and ultimately, authority by selection.
Raul, I regard you as intelligent, informed and progressive through what you have previously written, but insistence in absolutes places evaluation in (re. Nandric) the position of being either totally true or totally false. Again, I have no foundation for disagreement with your selection of the EPC-100m4 as the absolute best you have yet experienced but even my minimally enlightened perception still respects the validity of informed opinion and well examined personal choice by others. The only absolute I'm aware of I'd prefer to avoid.
As semantics make my head hurt almost as much as Nandric's metamathmatics, I'll say no more in this matter, except thanks for your generous sharing of information and energy. Peace, and of course, enjoy the music. |
Dear Driveman: 150pf. I think was in the cartridge review:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?ranlg&1268864860
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Dear Dertonarm: I remember now that you " touch " it from the school but no I was not thinking on that.
I start this thread with the Technics cartridge at " hand " because this was the audio item that IMHO deserve that " the best " status.
That the audio item in the thread is a cartridge is important ( like any other audio item. ) but not important to the " the best " subject.
This is the real thread subject: try to talk around " the best " figure like something that some of us can find and share with us.
IMHO the subjective/system-ears dependent argument is no consistent when you or any one else ( I already posted: there are some audio Sommeliers out there, including you. ) has the " training " for be an audio " Sommelier ".
Why is so difficult to accept " the best "? maybe because some of you are shy to say: " I'm an audio Sommelier? or because maybe you are an audio Sommelier but the other people does not believe in you? or maybe because you think you are when in reality you are not yet?
I see " the best " subject like a very important part in any human activity and always is difficult to find " the best " and define who has the capacity to discern what is " the best ".
Maybe the problem is that some of you are shy to by your self come here and say: I'm ( even if you don't have yet a " the best " audio item. ).
Gentlemans, does not exist yet in the audio high end or in this forum a " chiefs board " and a Chairman of the board that could be the persons that can give the audio Sommelier status to any one.
So, we have to start by our self and not because any one think we " are " but because in reality/honesty some of you has that kind of " training ".
This is the very first step to in a second step accept " the best ".
I'm not sure if this is the time to do it, if the audio high end and this and other forums already has the " audio mature " need it to give those " steps ".
Last but not least is that maybe because " Raul " is the proponent many of you not only can't accept it but even not want to discuss it.
Again, Gentlemans: the subject has nothing to do with who is the proponent or who start the thread. The importance of the whole subject is wide and deep and beyond any single person and what that person think. The subject is not about " Raul ", period.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Raul,
Not sure if this is already covered but what capacitance loading are you using for the EPC-P100CMk4? I assume that resisitance loading is at 100Kohm?
Rgds |
Raul, you are referring (maybe without knowing so...) to the Volunté Générale by J.-J. Rousseau. This gets automatic in opposition to the "Volonté de tous" of all the other audiophiles.
This is an old dilemma.
Even if we take you as the chief sommelier of analog audio's Maxim's de Paris (although I am pretty sure there will be a hell of a lot of other audiophiles volunteer for that position... ;-)....), there are always - after all is said and done - even in widely recognized outstanding vintages - different tastes among people.
Some can't stand subtle details in a bouquet that the next finds overwhelming in beauty and delight.
Accepting laws of nature (human here ....) does not mean to abandon the pursuit for perfection or the strive for progress.
And the individual recognition of a "Volonté Générale" in analog cartridge performance is not transferable to another person. Recognition in the sense of the words of this heroic phrase means abusing it.
This has been done to great sadness in politics in the past 2 centuries and our world was not changed for the better - but it filled the graveyards and corrupted our ethics.
There is always a "best" cartridge in the moment and for the individual listener's matrix.
There is always a "best" Claret (among other great but different wines) for the moment and the respective course of menu - there is no absolute best for ANY occasion.
Even Parker and Broadbent would agree on that..... |
Dear Timeltel/Nandric: Unfortunately there is no Maxim's de Paris restaurant everywhere, so to know it and understand what I meaning you must to go ( till one year was here in México. ) to Europe, China or Hong Kong. I attend here in México and in Paris too.
Maxim's de Paris is not a restaurant it is IMHO " the best " example of what any one could desire in a " boutique " status restaurant that btw posses maybe the greatess wine cellar in the world.
It is not a restaurant for any one even if you can pay it. Itt is a restaurant to people that has the knowledge or accustom to.
Well, a long history short: if you are an expert on wines and ask for Mersault 98 of the Bouchard " house/orign " ( I don't know how to say it ) and you ask to taste it before drink it you just can't do it: only the Sommelier can and have that right in benefit of you and what you pay for that wine.
If you are not an expert and already order what you will eat that night and ask for a wine then the only question the Sommelier ask you is: how much money do you want to spend? and after that you will have your bottle of wine: with no choices for you.
In both cases you will absolutely satisfied with the Sommelier " job " and you will remember that night and when you leave Maxim's the first thought to your mind is: to choose your next time in Maxim's!!!!!
On the Sommelier " job " subject his target is only that you be totally ( no excuses. ) satisfied with his choice and you know what: you always be!
Nandric in audio of course that are " added " conditions that's why you " study and training " several years to be an audio Sommelier!
I can but I don't have the time to explain you step by step what any one needs ( whole conditions. ) to achieve that audio " Sommelier " status.
What if you meet ( for the first time ) a person that tell you he is an Ayurvedic Gurú? and you tell him that he can't be ( in this example you don't know nothing about Ayurveda. ) and you tell him this only because you don't know nothing about or because you don't have that kind of training or knoledge or simple because you never been interested on Ayurveda.
All those " feelings " can't say that that man is not what he is or that could not be!
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Awakening or confirming suspicions? This may help:
http://2012.tribe.net/thread/665d4741-7369-4780-9e98-1bc651423192 |
Regards, Raul: Your accessment of the EPC-100M4: as wines can be reds, whites or the bubbly kind, sweet, nutty, fruity or dry, your Sommelier would suggest that one would be more appropriate in a certain set of conditions without intending the exclusion of others as being equally rewarding in different circumstances. Different vintages and social circumstance make this an open system.
Dertonarm, Travbrow, Nandric and others have politely expressed this concern relating to audio. With much respect for your pursuit of excellence and with recognition that logically there must be a "worse" and a "better", until systems and listeners are mass produced with cartridges as the only variable and all wines except one are blended in a closed system universiality, absolutes in an open system setting are contradictary. In practice(!), performance is a matrix of compatibilities and good or bad, integration remains system dependent. I wouldn't argue the quality a cartridge I don't know, it's the term "absolutely" I stumble over. Meanwhile, I'll remember knowledgable Raul stated it the absolute best he ever experienced and find fault with neither if someone else's fine tonearm thinks otherwise.
Ebm: Thanks for the humor ;-). You were joking, right? |
raul: I've previously said that the "tube liar" is more about marketing than he is about truth in audio.
I'm glad you agree with me. |
Dear Raul, your 'Sommelier example' is illustrative of our
'misunderstanding'. He can only compare 'some wines' and
state that 'a' is the best of the sequence:'a,b,..n'. But
to state that 'a' is 'absolute the best' we need some added
conditions. I don't intend to involve you in 'academic' or
'scientific debate'. But everyone of us can only put in the
discussion what he knows or think that he knows. So I think
that I know something about the 'quantifiers' and their use
in statemets,sentences or propositions ( choose your preference). I learned this by study of Frege in more then
10 yeas time. To my mind the greatest mind of Europe. So I
am of course biased by my,say, education. But even so the
most I have learned in my intellectual development is from
Frege. His 'compatriot' Dertonarm I admire particulary for
his 'enlightenment inclination' . He is to my mind an 'homo
universalis' but I am not always in agreement with his statements. His attempt to handle both 'variables' (the cart and the tonearm)at the same time are not convincing to
me. He should start with,eh, one 'known' entity and procide
with the 'unknown'. Like he deed in Sweden by looking for
'someone' there. The peculiar 'reason' is that 'someone' is
not a name. Obvious to all of them who ever have coplained:
'someone has stolen my car'. The problem is obvious: varaibles are not names even if we put them in 'subject-predicat' sentence form. Then we all know that he prefers the FR-66 S tonearm. But even if we think that he is 'unlimited ' regarding his 'potentials' we also know that he is (very) limited regarding the choice of an cart
for his FR-66. So that is whay I 'presupposed' that Allaerts MC 2 Formla 1 is the 'best' cart at present. Ie if
you want 'the best cart' you should look for an tonearm after that.
So Raul our 'disagreement' is not about the carts but about
the statements about the carts.
Regards, |
Dear Nandric: I understand your point of view that I respect too but IMHO an according what I posted your statements cover only a part of the whole subject on " the best " that's a complex subject.
I will return to the Sommelier example: this kind of person distinguish between excellent two wines differences where he can't say which is better but only different, he can distinguish between two ( or more ) top wines and telling you which is better and what IMHO makes that this person achieve the Sommelier status is that he can tell you which " the best ".
Do you think that a Sommelier has to taste or already tasted all the thousands and thousands of wines out there in the last 30-40 years?, certainly not what happen is that he study and receive a specific in deep training to make his especial work.
Obviously because you don't understand what an audio Sommelier is then you are unaware of its existence but they exist: people ( few of them ) with specific training/ habilities/capacities.
You need an specific training to develop the Sommelier ( in wines ) knowledge and then tell me which is better or " the best ".
You can drive a Formula One racing car in an official race in Monza if you don't have a specific training and even if you think you have it only a few can compete in Formula One official racings.
You can be a 727 airplane pilot but for you can be a 747 pilot you need a specific training where only a few has and can do it.
The audio establishment ( where all belongs. ) already spread on our heads that does not exist " audio Sommeliers " in any audio area because the audio experiences always are subjective/system dependent/subjective/system dependent/subjective/system dependent/subjective......, so what? we are so " stupid/fool " that if we have a specific training that we cultivate over several years that permit discern on something different or distinguish when something is better but with all that specific training we CAN'T discern when we find " the best "????????????
IMHO this has no sense.
Nandric, if you was the owner of Lufthansa ( hypothetic " stupid " example for my part. ) and you are the person that hire 747 Pilots and you have in front of you 10-100 training and full experienced 747 pilots and you say no these 747 pilots does not exist yet and you don't hire them because of that believe and then your 747's stay in land for ever.
Nandric, IMHO we need one way or the other try to think ( sometime. ) in different way ( it does not harm or kill any body. ), try to help audio evolution, try to help the audio establishment in benefit of the establishment.
Please don't say " does not exist " or " can't be true " when you have just in fron of you.
Of course there is no easy to find " the best " in the different audio areas even if you have the " audio Sommelier " status but this IMHO does not means that " the best " does not exist because: EXIST!!!!!!
Gentlemans, I'm not against any one single of you I'm WITH YOU!
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul.
|
navele enin, talk about manipulation.
research health another topic that you'll see the same manipulation same org. mirror mirror
how few are after t. |
Dear Pedrillo: I think that maybe some care about the true and some of them know the true but the majority don't want to hear the true because IMHO are unaware exist that " true and this is maybe why we feel like they don't care about the true: all them already have the establishment true ( for the good or bad. ) and like I say are unaware of a different true then : who cares?
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Dear friends: Error>: you read, +++++ " Deny the existence of " the best audio item " goes against the establishment ..." +++++
this is the right sentence:
+*+*+* "" Deny the existence of " the best audio item " for whatever reasons ( even in some of those reasons make " sense ". ) is what IMHO was/is promoted by the extablishment through what " they " already " teach " and put/spread in our brains over those audio years, that's why we think/speak what we think/speak... "" +*+*+*
Always is and are time to change for the better in benefit of the audio high end establishment!!!
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Yes the one you like in your system!!Spend at least $5000.00 be a sport. |
Nice post Raul,I also read on another website about us "lunitics" trying these MM/MI cartridges and enjoying them.Brain washed audiophiles.It was the same thing when JN started the "Building hi-end turntables at home depot" thread.There were people who never even heard a replinthed idler drive turntable claim the "rumble" was awful and no way could compete with a hi-end belt drive.More brain washed audiophiles. |
Dear Pedrillo, I think that we all care about 'the truth'.
The problem is : truth by induction or deduction? Then we
have 'individual statements' (say from Raul,Dertonarm,etc)and we all have 'some' limitations regarding :information,knowledge,experience,etc that we
actualy posses.
Aaccording to my interpretation Raul should stated his 'universal statement' in this manner:' I am familiar with (say) 100 different carts of both kinds (MC& MM). I tested,etc, all of them onder the 'optimal conditions' and
according to me the EPC 100 KK 4 ist the best cart of them
all.'
So obviously the quantifier 'all' in this statement applys to those 100 carts. If there are 150 carts produced since
1980 then 50 carts are not included in this statement.
Then obviously Rauls conclusion is made by induction.
For the sake of argument I can state that I am familiar with only 4 carts one of wich have the best technical spec.
that I know of. My argument (Tarskis theory of truth) is
based on 'conditions' that an cart must fulfil in order to
get an qualification like 'very good','excelent',etc.
So look,for example, at spec. of Allaerts MC Formula I:
Channel sep. 70 dB at 100Hz
60 dB at 1 Khz
70 dB at 20 Khz
Total THD 0,01 %
There is a sence by wich I can state that those are the best spec. that I have ever seen. If I can afford this cart
then I surely can afford the tonearm ('variable' at the moment) that will form a 'perfect cobo' with this cart.
But it is also possible that we can reach some consensus in
this technical sence and judge that this cart is 'the best' at present time in,eh,technical sence.
Ie one of my 4 carts has 'beaten' one of 100 Rauls carts.
That is the problem of induction.
From what I have stated follows that 'absolute best' is an
wrong expression in the given context and I must also add: I like Raul very much.
Regards, |
Raul,
You have done a very good deed for the audio community. Unfortunately the audience has been indoctrinated by now with all this co in tel pro. If this country ever wants to rise up to its past glory it better wake up, because it's got a long way.
To prove this point, consider how nobody cares for the truth.
Bravo Raul. |
Dear friends: Six-seven years ( even today with less frequence. ) ago was often read threads like this: " which is the best tonearm? " and everybody name it and gives opinion to answer it.
In “ tose “ times no one cares and I mean it no one cares about the tonearm " couple ": the cartridge.
Then I start to post(ed) something like this: " with which cartridge? " and the people ( not all of them but many. ) does not understand my question, today almost all take in count the so intimate relationship between tonearm and cartridge before ask it.
For those times too I start to support DD TT's as an option/alternatiive to BD TT's, in specific the SP-10MK2/3.
I can remember that the big Agon boys just laught about and I mean it too: laugh about.
Today that DD TT alternative is more alive than ever and many of those Agoner's that laughed of me are enjoying the music with the SP-10's TT's.
Four-five years ago I " remember " me that exist the MM/MI analog alternative and start to talk/post on the subject with no questions or answers almost no comment from the Agoner's.
Today exist a very confortable and wide audio community hearing/testing/trying and enjoying the MM/MI analog source alternative. This audio community is growing up faster that any one could wait and sooner or latter all of us will be touched by it.
Btw and for this MM/MI audio community: do you know that somewhere someone already call us ( this same year. ) : " lunatics "?, I read it and just ignore it.
In the same manner I start to talk about SS electronics against the tube option. This subject was and is defended by tube lovers like if they are going to lose his life.
Today, very slowly, people turn around its " face " to SS, very slowly for say the least.
All these are only a few examples, there are additional ones.
Why am I reffering to it?, all of us, some way or the other, are part of the audio high end establishment that has non writing " rules and norms and myths and lies and trues " that are what surrounded and what command our each one audio decisions and what put the " speed " and where the high end can grow up.
In all this audio high end establishment ( the whole audio high end industry.: designers, builders, retailers, reviewers, customers, etc, etc. ) there are good things and bad things and different level of those " things ".
Well, why six years ago I " receive " so many " bad and wrong " answers/opinions/people attitude?, easy what I was/am talking about goes against the " establishment ", the establishment was not " prepare " to accept those audio " subjects " in those times: were inoportune.
The " engine/gas " that make the establishment move on or change ( that does extremely slowly. ) is obviously what move on almost any human acctivity: money, nothing wrong with that if IMHO that establishment move on always with honesty that IMHO many times does not do/did it.
They likes to " control " we the customers and " they " use any " tool/weapon/false arguments " to achieve their " cloudly " targets and to make us think what they want it not what we want and deserve.
I'm not against the audio high end establishment because I'm part of it and my overall knowledge mainly comes " living " inside. What I'm against is in the deshonesty “ actions “ that many times the establishment use.
There are a lot of examples of that " deshonesty " I'm talking about and I call deshonesty because " they " are tell us lies in favor of $$$$$.
I would like to post a clear/precise example of it: three days ago a very reputable ( that I respect and even I recommended his tube products. ) Agoner and electronic designer/manufacturer posted somewhere in this forum:
+++++ " he's right. Tubes make lower-ordered distortions, much more preferable to the human ear than the higher, odd-ordered distortions of solid state.
Tube distortions can be dramatically reduced by careful design. " ++++++
well, today with this lie/false myth he want to " conserve " and develop his market niche ( $$$$$ ) against other technologies like SS.
Nothing wrong with $$$$$$ if what he posted was a true and not something not only controversial but totally falseo r orientes onloy for tubes and not tell us the whole “ environment “ where SS lives too.
This kind of post on the tube subject was and is exactly the same six years ago, this means that the SS designers/manufacturers does not grow up: full of " stupid " SS electronics manufacturers!!!! That canÂ’t do nothing to avoid odd harmonics!
I don't posted anything against this lier ( two years ago, I did that. ) but other Agoner that I respect too give him a clear and precise and true answer ( an answer that is not promoted by the audio high end establishment. ):
+++++ " If you want the 2nd order distortions of the better triodes, you can have them with transistors too. It is a matter of design - not tube vs. Transistors. " +++++
but he ignore it and follow promoting his market niche with an additional post:
+++++ " The second order thing about tubes in general is only with SETs- when operating push-pull even-ordered harmonics are cancelled. The nice thing is that you don't get the 5th, 7th and 9th which are unpleasant and used by the ear as loudness cues. " +++++
Just pathetic!.
The audio high end establishment does not permit that we customers " learn ", grow up or take audio decisions ( $$$ ) against it, we are free of almost nothing.
Deny the existence of " the best audio item " goes against the establishment ( the no existence of " the best " is a false protection between all of them. It is a convenience. ) and goes against what the establishment already say to us and what already all of us learn.
Only a few of us take the challenge to think different/outside from a part of the establishment " rules ".
Many of yours answers in this thread against the existence of " the best " were already/inconcient conditioned by what the establishment put in our brains over the time.
They don't give us other " options " to think so we are unaware on subjects like " the best ", what really means and why we need several " the best " audio items out there.
I know almost for sure that some of you already think that your each one audio system is " the best " but are all to shy or don't have the the precise arguments to disclose in this forum. Remember the thread: How good is your system?, no focus/precise answers on anybody. Wonder why?
IMHO it is the audio high end establishment what already surrounded us of " mediocrity ". I hate any kind of " mediocrity " in this world but I have to live with. Today that establishment mediocrity promoted by " them " is what today goes against “ they “ grow up with a lot better $$$$$$ for that establishment.
The establishment push me ( thank you for that. ) to find better alternatives in audio to achieve the top pleasure that music always can give each one of us through our audio systems performance.
That's why we design the Essential 3160, that's why we are finishing our self universal tonearm design, an universal TT Mat, that's why we are in the amplifier design and that's why we decided to start a phono cartridge design project ( as you can read, this project " born " thank's to what some of you posted in this thread. ).
IMHO today the establishment is not ready to accept " the best " , we will see over the years to come: remember the tonearm/cartridge, the DD TT's, the MM/MI alternative, etc, etc.?
The time sooner or latter always puts “ things “ in the right place/perspective, where belongs.
In the mid-time the Technics EPC-P100C MK4 is today IMHO " the best " cartridge ever and my audio item Reference to our future phono cartridge self design!!!!!, period.
The next question is for all but especially for Dertonarm and people with that kind of audio/music knowledge and with top quality performance systems:
so you can discern/distinguish a different quality performance from similar audio items ( amplifiers, preamps, cartridges, etc, etc ) you can discern/distinguish better quality performance between similar audio items but with all those " heavy " audio/music " luggage " can't discern when an audio item achieve the " the best " status?!!!!!!!
I only want to add that " the best " is not a subjective ( I like it! ) main opinion, you can find a " the best " audio item that even does not like you and this can't IMHO diminish its " the best " status.
A main factor ( not the only ) to find " the best " is to follow not-writed/writing audio/music standards.
The music is well The Music: it does not matters if you like more Bach than Handel, boht are great and not because you like more Back this fact diminish the Handel greatness ( this is only an example not for argue about. ) )
Yes, there are only a few people that can attest about " the best ": it is something that needs specific " training " and it is not what you like it or not but what you learn/trained.
Take a job like the one of a Sommelier, he received an specific training to has the Sommelier status and to know if the Chateu Laffite 1986 is not only better than the 1978 but " the best " even if he does not likes Chateu Laffite but Chateu Margaux or Chateu Latour!!!
Ask this same Sommelier on the Mersault against a Montrachet and you will have a precise “ the best “ answer. Not what he like it but “ the best “.
Can you tell me if Meissen is better than Limoges or Fabergé? Who is for you “ the best “ in a precise “ era/time “ ?, maybe only an expert that is trained in specific can tell us about.
Lalique, Baccarat, Vals st Lambert, Daum ? which “ the best “?, not what you like. Again only a trained person could has the answer.
Are you an audio Sommelier?, think about.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Dear friends: Tl, Dm and Tw, I come back latter on the subject. It is a very complex subject with a complex surrounded environment and I want to elaborate a post that can explain in better way what are my thoughts about for any one of you can " understand " what I mean.
I have to say that I don't disagree totally with what each one posted because all that is part of the high end audio establishment ( the good part of it. ) in what are my believes but things are that time to time some of that believes change ( for the good or bad. ) and that's what I'm experiences with the Technics audio item.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
I think the EPC-100MK4 could have the best specs. of any other cartridge ever made,identical for each channel.Ruler flat frequency response,lowest tip mass,frequency response out to 120,000hz.Maybe it was the most precise cartridge ever built?And sure it is one of the best sounding,in the right tonearm.But like others have said it would be hard to claim anything in this hobby the absolute best.Too many different opinions on what actually sounds best to them. |
Dear Raul, growing up doesn't necessary mean to leave archaic ways. We all try - some more some less - to make things important to us "better".
And - well, english isn't my mother language either and I can expres myself and my thought a hell of a lot better and more precisely in german.
To accept, that a device - which is NOT independent as such but part of a mechanical matched team (cartridge/tonearm) - can't be the solitary "best" is important to make any progress.
As long as cartridges have to be mounted in tonearms and as long as we will have different tonearms around, we can't have a single "best" cartridge.
I am familiar with the Technics cartridge you are referring to from the old days.
It performs very good in certain tonearms.
I have a different "best" cartridge, which I know can only work to its very best with very few tonearms - because of mechanical and dynamical interactions.
I too believe that I can "proof" this to about everyone coming to my listening room. But it is the very combination of a certain cartridge with a very certain tonearm which do form an almost perfect mechanical team.
Raul - seriously - is there a single "best" food, a "best" wine, a "best" car, a "best" novel, a "best" movie, a best "song", a "best" piece of music ??
One does not have to be into philosophy to accept that the definition and election of something "best" is a futile quest from the start.
Especially so in a area where any prospective "best" would be a matter of interactions with partners.
And then finally - there is the individual experience which is different with each of us.
No matter what "listening test" one would put up, you would have different people with different taste and different ideas about how the music the hear have to be and how they get to their respective brain and evokes the illusion.
Politicians try to tell us since 5000 years what is the "best" for us.
Marketing tries the same since about 120 years - with increasing intensity.
There is a quest for the best, - but there will never be such thing in human existence.
If you tell us that you want to build the best cartridge for a certain given tonearm - then most would agree: yes, - that's possible and a smart decision. |
If it were asked "Is there a best way to build a specific house", the conclusion is obvious. If rephrased as "build the ABSOLUTELY best house", then aesthetic opinion intrudes.
Seiji Ozawa or Fritz Reiner impart individual interpretation to a given composition, one is free to say he prefers either. Respected opinion is contingent to knowlegable justification. Until reasoned comparative analysis can demonstrate another cartridge being superior and although a larger sampling population would be appropriate before stating absolutes, Raul's assertion remains uncontested but not inviolate.
Regarding a prior post, I do appreciate your point. I know you said: "The cart in your own TT is the best one for you" (qualifier) "AT THAT TIME", but rhetorically, if one had two cartridges, does the second (like Schrodinger's cat) enter a cognitive limbo when stored, couldn't it still be possible to say the unused other is better? |
Dear friends: Finally I can post the Technics cartridge review with some ( not very good ) pictures. You can go inside here:
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?ranlg&1268864860
or make " click " on my moniker " reviews ".
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Dear Dertonarm: IMHO when you are in " front " or have or design/build or whatever of " the best " ( any item, it does not matters which one. ) and you, me or other person does not like it this subjective fact means only that: that does not likes " the best " but does not and can't argue ( ok can but is useless to prove it. ) that " the best " is not " the best " only because I don't like it or because I'm " deaf " or because my music knowledge is poor or because my system has several limitations or because that hearing day I was out of mood or because I think that " the best " does not exist.
My opinion about is a way deep and extremely wide meaning that what you understand about. My language ( english ) limitations preclude to explain in a better way the whole subject.
I can understand that you don't like , after hearing it, a " the best " audio item but that fact in no way diminish that " the best " product.
Of course that if you made/make a test with say 100 different persons in a almost non-limited audio system and 97% of them say: I don't like it, then certainly that audio item is no " the best ".
Certainly too I can prove that an audio item is " the best " ( like this Technics one. ) if really is " the best ", we only need a controled and not biased live experiment/test.
I don't have the founds to do it but if any one out there is interested on it and support it in financial way then I take the challenge.
Daniel, IMHO we can't grow up if always think in the same " arcaic " way. If We want to be better/improve then we have to make things/think different to change the audio mediocrity that surrounded all of us.
I don't want to convince you or any one else that think that exist " the best " in all areas/subjects in our live but to be or to find " the best " is what give me the " gasolyne " to go a head in my life projects till I find that " the best ".
Several times ( to often. ) I can't meet " the best " but when I do/did the rewards are so amazing/outstanding that all my falls are worth to " suffer " for that " sole " find.
Yes, my way to " see " the life is a little different from yours and that's fine with me.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Dear Chucktone: Agree, music is all about. I remind that on what I posted here somewhere.
A thread like this give us the opportunity or not for some one of us can/could improve the joy that the MUSIC already give us through our car stereo or a memorable Walkman: that's all.
Music and what it represent always move our " feelings " it does not matters which the source is.
Music is one of the : " Belle Art ", nothing less.
The audio hardware is only a " badly necessity ".
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Wow, another thread goes bananas. Is this hobby about writing endless posts about cartridges, a never ending quest for a new (or new old stock) and improved sound, or about enjoying the music?
It's SXSW time here in sunny Austin. Shortly I'll get off the computer and go enjoy some music. Played by musicians who, for the most part, could care less about the difference between one cartridge or another. "The music" is so much more than what is reproduced by my audio system. Anybody else regularly have an amazing response to music that is reproduced over a cheap car stereo or computer speakers? At those times, I remind myself that the fidelity- high, low, or in between, is only one factor (often a not very important one) of why music is so meaningful to me.
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Dertonarm, you could become a follower of Adolphe Quetelet... :^) |
Acoustat6, I honestly think Raul is serious in his plans and attempts to fulfill his dreams and visions.
And I have no doubt that in his very personal point of view to the audio world as a whole he will succeed one far away future day. In his vision to let the world know and accept that his designs are what he sincerely believes they are, he will fail - as will and has so far everyone trying to make anything "absolute" or "best ever".
These are all hollow phrases today.
Human hearing and taste and visions are always individual and subjective.
If there is one single field which will never see any "best", than it is audio reproduction.
Unless we succeed in standardizing the recipients .... |
Raul said on "03-16-10: Rauliruegas"
"Finally I find the analog source true Reference and following/reading the Pedrillo/Travbow restlessness on how attain that cartridge quality performance yesterday Guillermo and I had a meeting on the subject and decide/talk that due that we already have the " Reference " maybe it is time to make our self design phono cartridge, we will meet again to discuss in formal way this exciting new project.
Of course that we have to finish the tonearm/mat projects first than the phono cartridge one."
I said on 3-10-10 Acoustat6
"The only thing we can hope for is that he designs a world beating cartridge himself. Then we can hear about that for another 500 self absorbed, chest beating posts. Where there is no alternative to Rauls absolute."
Am I clairvoyant? No. But now that Raul has built the worlds best phono/linestage and is busy working on the worlds best tonearm, well what else could he do? Can't let the unwashed masses roll around in pig slop MC cartridges. Not when he saved us from tube preamps, and now on the quest to save us from linear tracking arms and all of those bad sounding pivoted arms that dont match his golden ears standards.
Raul, I want to thank you personally for saving all of us in the audio world from the mediocrity put out over the last 50 years by electronic/audio designers, who obviously have not a clue at what they are doing compared to you.
Bob
PHP143 |
Raul,
Count me in too once you have the cartridge ready.
BrianC |
Raul,
Sign me up for the release of your cartridge, in fact I'll take two if that's allowed.
Peter
P.S. The concept of discovering which cartridge has the best performance and then making it available for a sane price: this will be a very nice contribution to the audiophile community. |
Dear Mordante: Well, do you take my offer or leave it?, I really mean it.
This offer is not because your post content but to give you the opportunity to be more satisfied that what you already are: you can't lose!
regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
I was not trying to be (too)smart. Sorry if anyone is or was offended by my comments.
Sometimes I just get an itch when people describe a product as "the best" and as a result I sometimes don't know when to shut up. Raul I think you are one of the most knowledgeable persons on the board regarding turntables.
Maybe I shouldn't have made my comment but I stand by it's content. |
You have your own amp? Where do you post info on it? |
Dear friends: I forgot, we already write the first target on this phono cartridge project design: that can be affordable to almost any one.
We don't know yet ( still we are un-experienced in this subject. ) if that first target is or can be compatible with the second target: that the new cartridge be " the best " with no excuse in any " audio environment ".
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Dear friends: Looking for the " best " as a whole audio system, looking to achieve not only nearest to the recording but almost " on the recording ", looking for better " roads " to achieve top analog ( through cartridges. ) music enjoyment I try and take different options that today help me to be " nearest ", like many of you.
You can read in my virtual system everything I change in my amplifiers/speakers/subs/etc, to be " there " even I have to build/design ( with José ) my own phono stage and own line stage and with Guillermo a tonearm/mat and on deck an amplifier.
Why I take all these hard work/research in those different item projects, just for fun?, no that's was/is because I don't find the items " out there " that help me in more precise way to be " nearest/there " and our designs already help me on that quest a lot.
In the past ( last five years I guess, maybe more .) I spend 100K+ heavy dollars only testing/enjoying LOMC cartridges and around 10K on MM/MI ones.
This investment with only one target: that some way or the other some of those cartridges " give me " what I'm looking for.
Well, the Technics EPC-P100C MK4 is the analog source that put me " almost there " ( btw and belive me: as more hours running this cartridge is improving over what I posted in the cartridge review!!!. ) and I share this great experience with you becaus eI think is important, unfortunately only the few owners of this cartridge can enjoy it due that is a vintage/non current cartridge production.
Finally I find the analog source true Reference and following/reading the Pedrillo/Travbow restlessness on how attain that cartridge quality performance yesterday Guillermo and I had a meeting on the subject and decide/talk that due that we already have the " Reference " maybe it is time to make our self design phono cartridge, we will meet again to discuss in formal way this exciting new project.
Of course that we have to finish the tonearm/mat projects first than the phono cartridge one.
Fortunately my friends/fellows/partners are people that makes things happen, we have a good team I can say.
We will see how that project comes.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Dear Mordante: I know that the Dorian is your " best " cartridge.
Well, if you can spend 200.00 buy the Azden one and if you think that after the Azden settle down and you fine tunning it that the Dorian is still your best one then let me know , send me the Azden and I pay for it.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Mordante, your post was way too smart, intellectual and educational to find the applause it surely deserved.
Few really like it to look into a mirror.
Logic and philosophy in its consequence does not qualify for be taken serious in personal audio nirvanas ...... it is the nature of the game: this is always about individual emotional experience via an individual matrix.
The funny thing is, that the very same lonely personal experiences often cry out for absolute statements. |
Dear Mordante: IMHO is useless any comments in your "
philosophical " opinion other that I'm not speculating
not even in theoretical way what I posted in this thread are
experienced facts.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Trav
I was somewhat tongue in cheek with my Technics EPC-U1200 post.
Just goes to show how the mighty have fallen, but it does have a glow in the dark stylus :-) |
The best cart in world is the cart you own. We can all speculate about what would be theoretical the best cart in the world. But The cart in your own TT is the best one for you at that time. Because that is the cart that lets you listen to you music. Any cart that you don't own is by definition worst because a cart you don't own cannot let you enjoy your music. |
Hi Raul,I did buy a second Azden YM-P50VL.It's a steal for the price.I really enjoy it,thanks for recommending it.I think the seller has a few more,I ordered my second one on Friday. |
