Is soundstage just a distortion?

I really think our subconscious expectations play a major role in the construction of the sound stage. Add to that the engineer's ability to inject the correct sonic cues, ie: tone, distance, decay, and viola, things are just where they should be.

Al,

Are you able to rule out the room acoustics in your tests as a factor?

That would seem to be a logical explanation for hearing different test tone frequencies at different heights. Anything about your room's acoustics that might account for it? How about more sound absorbent carpeting and obstructive/reflective room furnishings on floor combined with a more reflective and unobstructed ceiling region?

Maybe listening with headphones would be a good test to see if hearing alone produces the effect?

Or an SPL meter reading up high and down low might help confirm if top of the room is more "lively" than the "bottom" and if that might help account for things. I suspect that is often the case in many peoples rooms, but have nothing to prove it.

Hi Mapman,

Are you able to rule the room acoustics in your tests as a factor?

I would think that listening from 2 feet away, directly in front of the tweeters, pretty much rules out room acoustics as being responsible for the effect I described.

Maybe listening with headphones would be a good test to see if hearing alone produces the effect.

I would assume that the acoustic effects of the pinnae (the part of the ear that is outside of the head) are a major contributor to the effect I described. Headphones pretty much bypass the pinnae, and of course fire into the ears from the sides rather than from the front, so I'm not sure that headphone listening would provide any meaningful insight with respect to the effect I described.

Best regards,
-- Al

"I would assume that the acoustic effects of the pinnae (the part of the ear that is outside of the head) are a major contributor to the effect I described. "

I see. Could be the shape of the ear is a factor, larger area above to gather more higher frequency sound, less below.

Cupping the hands behind the ear is the best free tweak, after all. Maybe try that as a test with the tones and see?

If the room is lively, and a warble tone is used, I could see where reflected sound could be a factor, perhaps enough so for our sensitive ears to pick up on. Hard to say for sure.

PErception of higher frequencies coming from higher up than others is certainly not an unusual phenomena though I would say, whatever the contributing factors.

Traditional microphone techniques, both mono and stereo, do not encode significant height info.

Interesting article by John Atkinson.

The following provide tests, with which one may determine whether their system actually images, or reproduces a soundstage, as recorded. ie: On the Chesky sampler/test CD; David explains in detail, his position on the stage and distance from the mics, as he strikes a tambourine(Depth Test). The LEDR test tells what to expect, if your system performs well, before each segment. The Chesky CD contains a number of tests, in addition to the LEDR. (http://www.audiocheck.net/audiotests_ledr.php) (http://www.chesky.com/various-artists--jazz-sampler-amp-test-volume-1.html) The shape of your ears' pinnae is also a variable, regarding your ability to perceive images/locate sounds.

It's a little ironic that there are such things as records and CDs that test for soundstage since the soundstage you get is going to be limited by the, uh, limitations of the system you play them on. Kinda like seeing an ad for HDTV on your old fashioned 90s Panasonic. The HDTV picture quality in the ad is going to be limited by the constraints of the Panasonic. Wasn't Opus 3 another record label that "tested" for soundstage?

05-03-13: Geoffkait
It's a little ironic that there are such things as records and CDs that test for soundstage since the soundstage you get is going to be limited by the, uh, limitations of the system you play them on. Kinda like seeing an ad for HDTV on your old fashioned 90s Panasonic. The HDTV picture quality in the ad is going to be limited by the constraints of the Panasonic.

I don't see any irony there, Geoff.

The basic purpose of a test record or CD is to facilitate assessment and identification of the "limitations of the system you play them on."

It seems fundamental that when you want to test something, the performance of the test equipment (in this case the record or CD), in terms of accuracy, quality, etc., should be much better than the corresponding characteristics of what you are trying to test.

Regards,
-- Al

Looking forward to receiving mine:) And the others too!

Thanks, Rodman.

BTW, I was going to word it a little differently, Al;) You certainly didn't take the words out of my mouth.

Al's comments are on point. Goeff's reference to the Opus 3 recordings, especially 'Depth of Image' makes me wonder though what would have happened if I had never heard that record over a system which had its soundstage capabilities optimized. I used this disc for years as a goal/reference when trying to establish my own system. But, if you had never heard its capabilities in the first place it wouldn't mean so much - it still sounds great and you might not know what opportunities for improvement exist.

Hi all.

Just read this entire thread. I have to say that Mezmo's post had many good points and was well articulated - very good post Mezmo! Actually, I found many good posts in this thread. It's been a good read and very interesting.

However, when Mezmo stated: "They bounce off of stuff, stuff can get in the way, the room can resonate at weird frequencies, they can bounce into each other and either cancel each other out or get excited in strange and inappropriate ways, in short, they can get into all manner of trouble." I know he was referring to sound waves, but it sure did remind me of my buddies and I attending our first junior high school mixer.

Sorry to interrupt. Intermission is now over.

Please carry on,

Tim

Soundstage is a form of trickery,but can be fun when you hear it after changing a component.

Was it always there?
Or is it some sort of benevolent distortion that the new component has?

Perhaps the new component is more revealing of what had always been there in the recording?

Is the recording an accurate reproduction of a real musical event or is the soundstage just studio trickery?

Perhaps we need a list of recordings that are known to throw a huge soundtage in either or both formats.

But if a speaker didn't throw a huge soundstage,is that a deal breaker?
Maybe it does other things better,maybe it's more truthful to the tone of the instruments, or has more depth, detail or speed.

I suppose I should admit that I don't fuss about soundstage as much as I used to and that I don't miss it.

I do fuss about other things.

If I can't differentiate a string bass from a Fender,I wouldn't care about good or bad soundstage.

I remember some of my systems had better soundstaging than what I have now, but those systems were mostly of the 2 driver stand mount variety.

To go back to those systems just for improved soundstaging would be too much of a sacrifice in other aspects of sound reproduction for my tatse.

Newbee - Exactamundo! You have my guarantee if you see an for a fabulous plasma TV on your crappy Samsung 24" tv you will not be seeing it in its full glory. By the way, soundstage is real as a colonoscopy. What's the rumpus?

The verdict is in. I just listened to Roger Waters' Amused To Death. I must say I'm definitely not amused. Sound engineers definitely 'are' magicians! I'm hearing point source information as far to the left and right of my speakers as they are apart. Truly amazing.

The latest Dead Can Dance CD has soundstage and dynamics to die for. Their first CD in 16 (count 'em) years!

Geoff, it's interesting you would consider Newbee's comment ie: 'soundstage capabilities optimized', absolute. According to who? Him? You? Were you there? Are Newbee's ears perfect? Are instruments perfect?

Doesn't change what Al said one iota.

Oh, but it does dismiss your comment.
Exactamundo!

The verdict is in. I just listened to Roger Waters' Amused To Death. I must say I'm definitely not amused. Sound engineers definitely 'are' magicians! I'm hearing point source information as far to the left and right of my speakers as they are apart. Truly amazing.

Csontos, if the system is working correctly, you should hear sounds *outside* the width of the speakers. I once did a demo for a 'sound engineer' at my house with that recording. He said after the demo that he was distracted by the neighbor's dog outside the window (to the left of the left speaker). When I explained that the dog was on the recording (and played it again) his jaw was on the floor.

Thank you, Ralph. My experience is consistent in that regard but I wasn't kidding about just how far from the speakers I'm hearing this effect on that particular recording. I mentioned it because it blows away my earlier premise and confirms Al's and Rodman's evidence. I wasn't aware that was possible. I still can't get my head around it. It's incredible. Like surround sound without the side speakers. I have a Bedini B.A.S.E. processor but it's effect is not that strong.