I do agree that digital is better these days but I am not ready to give up my vinyl just yet. To my ears vinyl just sounds so right. With all of its "limitations". I can listen to it at normal listening levels and not feel like I have to turn it up to hear it all, not to mention that certain instruments digitally do not sound right to my ears.
Is New Vinyl Exempt from Loudness Wars?
I'm seeing new vinyl sold in many unexpected places these days.
For those who have bought a lot of new vinyl, I'm wondering if these tend to be mastered differently from similar newer CD remasters that often show effects of the "Loudness Wars"?
Is it a mixed bag perhaps? Much like CDs?
I wonder because if I knew there was a different mastering done for new vinyl I might consider buying some if I knew.
But new vinyl is expensive and I would not want to get essentially the same end result in regards to sound quality as I would get with CD for much less.
Just wondering.
For those who have bought a lot of new vinyl, I'm wondering if these tend to be mastered differently from similar newer CD remasters that often show effects of the "Loudness Wars"?
Is it a mixed bag perhaps? Much like CDs?
I wonder because if I knew there was a different mastering done for new vinyl I might consider buying some if I knew.
But new vinyl is expensive and I would not want to get essentially the same end result in regards to sound quality as I would get with CD for much less.
Just wondering.
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@Audiotomb re: Back to Black I bought the UK version after the US one was difficult to listen to I guess it is what it is - what was the engineer & Amy shooting for in the music ? After adjusting VTA on the American version of Back to Back, I got it listenable but not the same enjoyment level in my room as the others I mention below. The cartridge/stylus type you are using will play a big part here. I think the engineer was shooting for an upfront, almost brash presentation of Amy in a bar with me sitting a couple tables in. :^) If this is true he accomplished this in my room. Throw Audiophilia out the door here. Listen with friends after a few drinks. In a comparison of ladies, the LP packages Diana Krall Wall Flower, and Sarah McLachlan Shine On Lps are a much better package overall. More care was taken and each album is covered over two lps. Alot of getting up ! You gotta really like doing this vinyl stuff to keep doing this. The music not rated highest by DR standards, borderline, better than Back to Black. These albums are more musical, listenable, enjoyable for me. According to HD tracks the best files are 44.1 but 24 bit. The Lady Gaga Tony Bennett LP was a real roller coaster. I mean the vinyl not the music - the music was ok but the thin vinyl’s condition left me teed off so I returned it. This is where the heavier vinyl has an advantage. The store manager asked "what’s wrong doesn’t it play ?" I told him it played fine but not happy with the condition of the vinyl and left it at that. The guy did not need to be subjected to Vinyl-phile nervosa. ********************************** Something I found interesting. In the process of ripping a few more cd’s from my impressionable years - I noticed this one. Mike and the Mechanics (1985-US cd) In big letters on back of CD. "The Music contained on this Compact Disc was originally recorded on analog equipment. We have attempted to preserve, as closely as possible, the sound of the original recording. Because of its high resolution, however, The Compact Disc can reveal limitations of the source tape." 8^0 1985 CD - 13 Overall DR value - The CD Sounds excellent. I looked and have a Mike and the Mechanics 1985 - Canadian LP Pressing. I will do a compare for fun one day. Cheers |
@Atmasphere Thanks for the information about using a Technics SL1200 and Grado Gold cartridge when doing a listen on a test cut, on the 14 " disc. The angle that the cutterhead stylus is placed at when a record is cut results in an included angle in the final disc. Can you tell us what angle you use when doing the cutting. Do you use a set angle or can it vary for some reason ? thanks |
I wouldn’t argue the Winehouse "Back in Black" might be considered somewhat "bright" tonally, but i would argue that if things are going well during playback, its not an issue any more than one might experience at a comparable live performance where there is nothing to take the edge off other than perhaps cheaper seats. I find the same to be true with many newer remastered CDs in particular, DR aside. They tend to be "hotter" sounding than many older versions released prior to early 90s or so, many of which could be considered flawed in the other direction ie washed out and bland. I recall reading there were some major changes to the standards used in mastering and making CDs back in the early to mid 90’s that accounts for the difference overall heard with many CDs prior and post. This had nothing to do with loudness wars at the time. that came into play after. So now you have both "brighter and louder" CDs in genreral. Though I did just a few years back, I don’t find it particularly problematic anymore though. I’ve fine tuned my gear over the last few years to the point where I feel I hear what is in the recording seldom with any fatigue which is all one can ask for. Being 56 years old and not hearing to 20Khz anymore like I used to probably helps in this regard. |
Nobody said dynamic range is the end all do all for sound quality. But listen, if you buy a Ferrari that's supposed to redline at 8,000 RPM and you get it home and find out it comes with a rev limiter installed that cannot be removed that limits revs to 5,000 RPM, guess what? You should have bought a Toyota. |
"In regards to new vinyl , I live in a small town with only a small HMV nearby with limited selection. If I really want something I need to drive 45 mins or have it brought in. The last thing I want is to have any vinyl handled more by couriers." There are excellent deals to be had on eBay. If they're packed correctly the couriers can throw the around like a discus. The last ones I sold were the first two Mothers of Invention, In Through the Out Door, Tea for the Tilerman, and a bunch of Mercury Living Presence, and I'm not talking about reissues, either. It's a buyers market out there. |
Mapman I do both CD's and streaming, depending on my mood. I guess I like to handle cds and lps, and maybe from being in IT since I was 17, makes using the computer too close to work sometimes for me. IDK. The other thing. I don't think of myself as old but my kids sure do, at least with some of my music habits. They can't believe I listen to whole cd's without skipping tracks. I tell them I want to get to know the artist, and most time, the best stuff, is the stuff that never makes it to the radio, Their not buying it. So the computer advantage of cueing up a song list on the server is not a big deal for me. But not stepping on and knocking over piled cd's around the cd transport....:^( In regards to new vinyl , I live in a small town with only a small HMV nearby with limited selection. If I really want something I need to drive 45 mins or have it brought in. The last thing I want is to have any vinyl handled more by couriers. |
there is still the problem that very few people have the playback equipment needed to track it well much less not have the stylus jump the groove. So it only makes sense to produce such a product at higher cost and profit margin since only a few will be able to benefit. The rule of thumb I use is a Grado Gold mounted on a Technics SL1200. If you can't track it perfectly with that then you have a mastering problem. No-one is cutting in such a way that only a top-end arm/cartridge combo will work!! Lacquers for mastering are 14" in diameter; if we want to test something we will often cut a test track outside the 12" diameter and then play it back on our SL1200 to see how well it works. That way we know we are getting a good cut when we proceed with the recording. At extremely large/fast cutting head excursions, the cutting head coils may physically burn up, much like how a speaker's voice coils may be destroyed by an excessive current. Also, the diamond cutting head stylus may prematurely wear or break. This places important constraints on the maximum levels that can be recorded to a record.This is another example of a statement made by someone that has no clue as to how the mastering process occurs. In actual real life, this won't happen. You can't burn up the cutterhead by cutting a trackable groove! Anyone who thinks that hasn't been around one. Further, the stylus typically has about a 10-hour service life before it has to be replaced. **Diamond** is usually used for dub plates (which are plastic custom one-offs made for DJs and the like, being harder than lacquers you need a different stylus). So most styli are actually sapphire, not diamond!! Additionally, they are heated so they can make the cut without noise. The reason they only go about 10 hours is they start to make noisy cuts. At 5 hours its often a good practice to check and see if you need to raise the stylus temperature slightly to compensate for wear to the stylus. The stylus isn't going to break or wear prematurely without abuse- that is pretty much just bunk. |
I thought it was a well produced video, and after all the Dynamic Range DR numbers thrown out on this thread, very welcome to see a visual "actual wave form" of this in action - real time. Key parts at the 4:50 and 7:12 minutes marks. The first "time mark" he explains file differences; and what he actually hears (and anyone else here can too with good headphones) on the second mark. You could see how things went from 8 DR with digital to12 DR for vinyl whenever he toggled between the two. I have seen, as I'm sure others here have as well, many analog wave forms. They vary greatly with the turntable setup. We could be talking drive system differences between idler, direct drive, belt or string. A really interesting one is on a same turntable that is able to keep consistent speed, and seeing the different wave forms for a linear and pivot tonearm. Significant wave form differences based on the different forces being put on the cartridges' cantilever/stylus against the groove. That's another thread/discussion. The other part of the video I liked was that as the engineer who created the digital master file being used, he confirmed nothing special had been done to the vinyl rip - other than the vinyl rip. It was done using a band member's turntable which he said was "good' but not exceptional. He then discussed differences. I found the comment about image shift with the vinyl very interesting and in the first comment of the actual youtube is this. the dynamics you can "see" on the vinyl aren't real, they're the result of something called "phase rotation" caused by the analogue signal path cutting the vinyl, which I can reproduce digitally. hmm..interesting.. Would any sound engineers here like to comment on this one ? Looking to learn. He described his digital file as more crisp with more top, the vinyl sound he called warmer. This crisp versus warmer analogy has to be the most used term in Audiophilia. You can apply those two words when comparing speakers, DAC's , amplifiers, etc... you name it. Just the mention of these two words gives anyone in this audio hobby a good idea of what is going on with the listener - in their head. here's a more direct link to the you tube for those interested. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-AE9dL5FG8&feature=youtu.be not associated with the video and I also liked the music being sampled. Cheers |
I suspect the real life situation with respect to dynamic range of vinyl and CD is well presented in the Dynamic Range Database. If in fact it's true that CDs are overly compressed for playing in cars, which I'm actually not convinced is true, that might explain why vinyl tends to have higher dynamic range generally speaking than ITS CD COUNTERPART since LPs are not played in cars. But I agree with the author of the video that one needs to listen and make up ones mind whether it sounds good or not. |
I discussed the differences in cartridges/tonearm/wiring, etc... in the last post. The articles are linked for reference to those interested as I found them interesting. I only browsed the articles over coffee. Maybe coffee hadn't kicked in yet and I interpreted differently. As I said in my last post. System dependent references as far DR ratings are concerned, to me, would mean everything in front of the meter. What's your take on the video from the digital engineer ? |
Hello, it was actually the dude from Hydrogen Audio that intimated that the dynamic range is system dependent, which is a TRUE statement but irrelevant to the topic at hand. Now that I think about it and I hope your don't feel like I'm jumping down your throat too much so are the differences among cartridges. That's kind of the same argument the dude from Hydrogen was attempting to make. Cheerios |
Here is somebody comparing the Dynamic Range levels in a video. Vinyl against CD and his impressions. oh .....and he is the one that created the original master digital file. http://productionadvice.co.uk/tt-meter-not-for-vinyl/ I found it a fun and interesting video. Watching how the meter functions answered a lot of questions for me. Before I comment further will let those interested view it. Geoffkait - Well, obviously the dynamic range of any recording is affected by the playback system including all components and room acoustics. but we are not talking about all of that. ?? the signal - digital or vinyl is plugged into a DR Meter. Room acoustics is not in play. and fwiw with vinyl. No two same cartridges - are the same. Differences exist. And who listens to vinyl with the same cartridge as someone else. Very rare. Then you move further up different tonearm >>>>> wiring >>>>>>>turntable >>>>> preamp/phonostage >>>>>>> DR meter. What does this say about the consistency in the "vinyl" DR ratings themselves ? Lots of variables - and lets not forget the most important one with vinyl. The actual SETUP. |
Well, obviously the dynamic range of any recording is affected by the playback system including all components and room acoustics. but we are not talking about all of that, we are only concerning ourselves here with the recording that is presented to the system, as it were. Even if the dynamic range measurement system is "crude" which I doubt it is it will be crude for all recordings so it should even out. What is the error in the DR measurement system, 1 dB? Who knows? It is what it is. If you can hear the compression it's bad. If you can't hear it or it doesn’t bother you too much then go for it! But as for me I find I cant listen to overly compressed music so if it flunks the test for dynamic range I’m out. |
Why the DR Dynamic Range numbers for vinyl are higher than CD. One explanation. Taken from here. http://wiki.hydrogenaud.io/index.php?title=Myths_(Vinyl) Here are a couple parts. fwiw - I am finding this research less stressful, than trying to figure out why my financial investments are doing so poorly. Sort of therapeutic - temporarily... Effect of vinyl mastering on dynamic range^^^^^ I asked about the software/tools used to determine the ratings in that DR database earlier. The above states "reported by crude "DR meter" tools that compare peak and RMS levels. Interesting... ************************************ There are two types of processing during vinyl mastering that can increase the DR measurements and waveform spikiness, thus reducing the RMS and increasing the basic DR measurement by perhaps several dB: ^^^^^^ The last paragraph in this section is of particular interest and points again to equipment level and attention to detail (setup). **************************************************** Some even believe that Vinyl will automatically yield a superior sound, despite the well known technical limitations and disadvantages compared to the CD. ^^^^ Points to the extra care needed with cutting vinyl. Another reference to the delicate cutting equipment and how if one is not careful, damage could result to it. Comments ... |
Ralph, again though even if production of uber dynamic lps need not have technical limitations, and teh makers are inclined to leverage the technology to the max (rather than make some compromises in the interest of managing cost and overhead usually involved in making a higher quality product), there is still the problem that very few people have the playback equipment needed to track it well much less not have the stylus jump the groove. So it only makes sense to produce such a product at higher cost and profit margin since only a few will be able to benefit. It has to be in teh business model of the label/brand so people who care know what to look for. I thought it obscene at first that Urban Outfitters in manhattan was selling $30+ records and cheap Crosley products to play them on. If those records are REAL records, there will be some unhappy customers trying to play them. Makes more sense for them NOT to be. That way they will play on almost anything but sound Top Notch on nothing. Least common denominator has to win. Audiophiles beware. |
while the cutting lathes are truly magnificent machines and properly maintained stand the test of time beautifully… The format itself was not made to reproduce the kind of loud and often distorted music we have today. This is incorrect. First and most important, we should all keep in mind that **all** recording gear is designed to record whatever is thrown at it- it does not have taste of its own and would have no idea if the recording is ;music we have today' or something older. The simple fact is that vinyl easily records 'the loud and often distorted music of today' with no worries. Ask me how I know. Here is another fact I discovered after we set up our LP mastering operation: The mastering amplifiers typically have about 10X more power than the cutterhead could ever handle. This is so its impossible to overload the electronics. The cutterhead itself, which indeed fragile by comparison, can cut undistorted grooves that no cartridge/tone arm combo could ever hope to track. So with any music that can be recorded at all the cutterhead is in no danger whatsoever, unless the mastering engineer does something stupid (again, ask me how I know...). IOW, the limit to LP dynamic range is in **playback**, not record! The simple fact of the matter is while the LP likely falls a few (and I mean just a few) db short of the dynamic range of Redbook, in practice that dynamic range of Redbook is never exploited (the same with MP3) due to the fact that the media has expectation to be used in a car. Since LP does not have this expectation, usually it will in practice have greater dynamic range in the grooves that you will see with any commercial digital recording. Going over 20 minutes on a side really is not a problem and you see it all the time. But that is a good side length as it can accommodate any kind of music without dynamic compression or tracking problems. |
Hello, Mapman. But we’re not talking about resolution, at least on this particular thread, only dynamic range. Myself, I don't see any correlation between dynamic range and resolution but I have heard opinions at variance with mine. As I just posted this morning even hi res downloads are not exempt from trigger happy audio engineers in terms of overly aggressive dynamic range compression. Just when you thought it was safe to go back in the water... |
Geoff, All I;m saying is lossless CD res format is higher resolution than lossy (the .mp3 download). But yes format alone does not assure the content so anything is possible. In the case of the mp3 even, Skyfall may not be the DR champ in the grand scale of things but it is a very well done recording overall I would say though certainly not perfect by audiophile standards and is a lovely listen even if not particularly an Adele fan like me. I do think she is talented though and very much enjoy some of her stuff, warts and all. I would only add that I often later get CD versions of tracks I like that I first download as .mp3 mostly out of convenience and in every case the ripped CD version is better by a small margin. I usually keep both on my music server and when one queues up randomly I try to guess which it is and usually guess right. Hows that for a/b blind testing? |
Mapman wrote, "The Adele that I am most familiar with is the tune "Skyfall" which was the theme song for the recent James Bond movie. I know and like it from a class at the gym (balance). I only have an mp3 download from Amazon so far and its not bad, fairly listenable overall I would say. Lossless digital version is surely better." The lossless digital version must surely be better? Surely you jest. Take a gander at Adele’s page on the dynamic range database link below. See if you can detect why someone recently posted regarding Adele’s poor showing when it comes to dynamic range. http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list?artist=Adele&album= Cheerios |
The Adele that I am most familiar with is the tune "Skyfall" which was the theme song for the recent James Bond movie. I know and like it from a class at the gym (balance). I only have an mp3 download from Amazon so far and its not bad, fairly listenable overall I would say. Lossless digital version is surely better. I do notice that orchestral soundtrack recordings on CD tend to fair pretty well these days. Sometimes they are exceptional. I think its because people hear this music on a large scale on a "good" system at any good quality local theater these days so the soundtrack releases try to retain that appeal. Although in general of course modern acoustic or orchestral music tends to fair better in terms of DR I think than a lot of more electronically amplified pop music. Same holds true with live concerts. If you go to enough well produced live concerts using electronic amplification you realize that similar stuff recorded and listened too at home is really not that much different. So if the goal is believe that what you hear at home is what you would hear live, no problem there in many cases. If the goal is for every recording to sound like the best, well we know how that always works out.... |
ct, thanks for all that. I agree in general. BTW Springsteen is a mixed bag for me but Darkness is perhaps my favorite end to end of all his releases and I have no issues with my CD (ripped to music server) copy for what it is. BTW, playing CDs versus streaming ripped CDs from computer disk storage is another good topic to consider when assessing the overall utlity of modern digital versus vinyl. My overall satisfaction with digital jumped way into the green when I made that transition. I have not played a CD in years other than in my car. Its rip and stream only these days baby! No looking back. |
Lp2cd I don't doubt it. Its too bad for those hear (sic) on Audio-Gon(e), that the popular younger market guides how it sounds. Cool product Izotape Vinyl But I think its missing on the real reason that "some" people are addicted to vinyl. https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/5a/db/1b/5adb1ba0951979115989f93d43a59fcc.jpg and lets not forget another real tangible reason for "some" Moldy smell scenting ... that can only from from finding that treasured 40 year old unused album at your local Good will. But from what I can see the the real marketing issue with the Izotape vinyl product.....its free. Everyone knows if you want to sell something, you need to attach a price to it or people will think its not worth buying. And in this audio hobby - the higher price ......... Adele 25 update. (for those following this adventure) I gave the Adele 25 cd one more try...yeah I know ......stubborn. So charged up the ESL's in room B. No luck same symptoms. So I turned off the sub and tried it again. Now she appeared to be really screaming at me during the chorus. My wife was not impressed. I think all this activity triggered by Mapman's thread has now made me sick of Adele. but all is not lost..... A memorable moment when my daughter came home and I passed her the cd. It slipped out of my hand, fell on the floor and the cd case fell apart into 3 pieces. The Cd fell out. My daughter put the cd in her Apple computer - and guess what - it worked ! Try that with an LP and see what happens. but the biggest revelation .....it sounded pretty good. Hello by Leroy Sanchez https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlZ9kjCrGJw Hello by Lucky Chops https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mOMmP_aKso&feature=youtu.be notice the lower octave during the chorus. works better for me. maybe Adele can give it another go ? after she stops counting the money. coffee done--have a nice day everyone. |
Sorry, I've work to do and have been plenty busy. But I was reminded when a promo for this came in, this has been around for a long time, and I thought it might give this crew something fun to chew on. I give you iZotope Vinyl: https://www.izotope.com/en/products/effects-instruments/vinyl/ Digital can be made to sound however you want it to, good, bad or old fashioned LP. |
So Is New Vinyl Exempt from Loudness Wars? over 50 posts ? oops long post sorry. Lets think about how the vinyl is made. This is an interesting very easy to read article. http://www.resoundsound.com/mixing-for-vinyl-dont-fall-for-these-traps/ from there. while the cutting lathes are truly magnificent machines and properly maintained stand the test of time beautifully… The format itself was not made to reproduce the kind of loud and often distorted music we have today. What Physical Vinyl Limitations ? Well the very nature of the cutting act itself by the person and the machine (cutter). The person doing the vinyl master cut needs to be careful when cutting vinyl. Extreme signals can damage the equipment and also put grooves in the vinyl that are too big, which will prevent 20 mins of music a side. Go over 20 mins results in smaller grooves which leads to distortion and other problems like tracking. Due to this inherent fragile nature of the analog equipment, and these physical limitations of the vinyl disc itself; this IMO just lends itself to making sure more care is taken. The end result can be a better listening product in a "well setup" vinyl rig, when compared with popular music on CD that contains loudness. And the DR ratings do seem to support this too. But vinyl is a mechanical, resonance vibration setup GAME. There is a learning curve and it really all depends how well it is setup. Also if you look at the turntable setups they use to test records after cut they are IMO only finding out if the record tracks / plays. And this is ok, because the end customer setup and expectations are all different anyway. Now with digital - IMO because of Digital’s greater potential, the engineers with some popular music are forced to make it loud, because 1) they can, and 2) because of demand by popular artists/markets. So the Digital medium even though it promises potential; the Digital process itself is a victim - in this case. This phenomena is another example imo of how a lesser design (Vinyl) set up well; can trump a better design (Digital) when it is not done well. But when Digital is done well (recording/mastering) - it is very very good .....in my room anyway. end of part A ********************************** part B now RIAA and I’d like to reference posts by Raul and Atmasphere. Rauliruegas So Raul mentions bass compression with the vinyl cutting, and I think that Atmasphere took issue with the word compression? I think Raul meant a word like "cut" or "reduce". I know that both Raul and Atmasphere know what is happening with RIAA. First what is RIAA? for those reading who are not aware. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RIAA_equalization#/media/File:RIAA-EQ-Curve.svg RIAA stands for the Recording Industry Association of America, who set a standard in 1954 for the precise amount of bass cut and treble boost to be applied when records are made, and the converse boost/cut required when records are played back. There were numerous different standards of cut/boost before 1954, each requiring amplifiers with different playback characteristics to achieve accurate reproduction, but the RIAA specification became universally adopted and allowed all record manufacturers and amplifier manufacturers to work with a common standard. All modern records are cut to the RIAA standard. from internet source.. So ... When cutting the actual vinyl disc - they do turn the bass down for smaller grooves , and turn high frequencies up - boost to eliminate noise. Then when we play the actual vinyl disc back through our RIAA phono, bass and treble levels are equalized again. Bass boosted, treble attenuated. Really amazing if you think about it that the whole thing actually works. ******************************************** Opinion So I think Yes to a degree in answer to the original post; and how much depends on how bad the original digital file is to begin with. Just some observations - thx for starting the thread Mapman. Here’s one for you btw from the DR database as I know you are a big fan of Springsteen 8^) --- An artist that audiophiles like to take shots at for sound quality and rightfully so for some of the albums. Flat sound. Springsteen - Darkness on the Edge of Town. http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list?artist=springsteen+&album=darkness Ratings only show digital. Note the ones that are 14 overall - Good. Japan ratings lowest. What’s with that ? I listen to a 1978 LP. Monster album. My understanding is that AudioGoneer SLAW has a very special pressing of it. If he owned a reel to reel I would offer a R2R tape for it. This album helped me through some trying times. Power of the message over the music ? |
Agree with lowrider except some very red releases might still be worthwhile if.... 1) You like the artist and want the music 2) You don’t care about earbleed 3) If you do care about earbleed, you better have a top notch system with low distortion and noise levels. That way you might still enjoy the music that’s there. The example for me I would cite is Death Magnetic by Metallica which is one of the worst DR recordings listed but I still enjoy cranked up high as it should be. It is still good nicely etched and crafted metal music, just not very dynamic. It makes for a good test record actually along with the others if recordings like that matter to you at all. |
Mapman is correct with #s 1, 2, 3. #1 is the average of the entire album. The higher the number, the more dynamic range (less compression). If you click on the album title, all tracks will be displayed with their dynamic range. I agree that the DR scale should not be the only criteria used in determining the sonics and range of the recordings. Although, I have found that CDs listed with low numbers in the red zone are overly compressed and not worth buying. (usually during the years of the Loudness Wars). |
As I recall the three numbers are: 1. DR for the entire album/release 2. DR of the track with minimum DR 3. DR of the track with highest DR So it tells you not just range for the whole album/release, but which tracks are best and worse. First number should always be in the range of second and third I would expect (average is somewhere in the range of min and max). I don’t know how the site is managed or how the numbers are verified or not. My gut interpretation from what I have seen so far is the numbers are of interest but should be taken with a grain of salt or two. I personally would not use this alone to determine what to buy unless overall dynamic range is all one cares about. I have many wonderful sounding recordings that do not rate particularly high here. Amy Winehouse Back in Black is a good example. Maybe others have more insight regarding the reliability of the numbers reported. |
Next up, Rolling Stones. Rolling Stones vinyl Vintage vinyl The Rolling Stones Between the Buttons [vinyl] i 1967 12 10 15 lossless Unknown The Rolling Stones Some Girls (Australia CUN 39108) i 1978 13 12 15 lossless Vinyl Rolling Stones It's Only Rock 'n Roll 1974 14 11 15 lossless Vinyl Rolling Stones Out Of Our Heads 1976 12 10 13 lossless Vinyl Rolling Stones Aftermath i 1984 14 12 14 lossless Vinyl Rolling Stones Let It Bleed 1969 13 12 14 lossless Vinyl The Rolling Stones Tattoo You [vinyl] 1981 13 12 15 lossless Vinyl The Rolling Stones Miss You [12" vinyl] i. 1978 15 14 16 lossless Unknown The Rolling Stones Exile On Main St. [vinyl] i 1973 12 10 14 lossless Unknown Recent vinyl The Rolling Stones Wild Horses (Acoustic Version)/Dead Flowers [7" vinyl] i 2015 10 10 10 lossless Vinyl The Rolling Stones Sweet Summer Sun - Hyde Park Live [vinyl] i 2013 09 08 12 lossless Vinyl The Rolling Stones A Bigger Bang [Vinyl] i 2005 10 09 12 lossless Unknown The Rolling Stones Doom And Gloom [Vinyl] i 2012 10 10 10 lossless Unknown Here are some comparisons of CD vs Vinyl The Rolling Stones Bridges to Babylon [vinyl] 1997 12 11 14 lossless Unknown The Rolling Stones Bridges to Babylon (2009 Remaster) i 2009 06 05 07 lossless Unknown The Rolling Stones Bridges to Babylon i 1997 07 06 08 lossless Unknown The Rolling Stones A Bigger Band (Special Edition--CD only) i 2005 06 05 08 lossless Unknown The Rolling Stones A Bigger Bang [Vinyl] i 2005 10 09 12 lossless Unknown - cheers |
"Geoffkait do you listen to Led Zeppelin through your Sony Walkman or through a regular stereo ? I have a problem with Led Zep. If I do put it on the Spl’s usually end up going high and I get in trouble." Zeppelin CDs and cassettes as vintage as possible through Sony Walkman CD and Cassette players using vintage Sony Walkman Ultralight headphones. Is there such a thing as SPLs that are too high for Zeppelin? |
the new Peter Gabriel went to 45 rpm they seem to put great care into everything but the sound I have original US first press UK Japanese Classic Albums from 2002 all from analog sources sound great (us originals a little murky) not sure what these are but they sound dreadful lots of detail and dynamics but the top end sounds shrill and way off on tonal balance - no warmth in midrange Amy Winehouse BTB, Frank, Lioness US - bright UK- a little less bright new box - haven’t opened it yet Allah Las - new album shrill on the lp tonally balanced on the cd new Booker T all crap shrill who lets this stuff out to the masses |
Those DR ratings for Back In Black are a bit surprising but not fatal. I’ve always thought the CD copy I have to be a louder but otherwise good quality recording. Its a good example of why there is more to music than just absolute DR, especially in popular genres. I have many CDs especially newer remasters that have a lot to recommend even if absolute DR is not one of those things. Pop/rock/blues based amplified music does tend to be loud overall when heard live. Classical and other more acoustic forms tend to vary more. Those are the ones where bad DR tend to impact my enjoyment more. But like most here I suspect I still love a great recording with great DR. Fact is if records were made to full DR potential, most players used today would not be able to track it and would probably even jump the grooves when teh real dynamics hit, like as used to be the case when the early Telarc digital recordings hit the market and would not play on any but the best vinyl setups of the time. With more dynamic CDs or digital a high power amp (Class D now offers smaller lighter and less expensive options for that) and A decent pair of speakers is all needed. Extracting the music from the medium is not as problematic these days with even decent quality digital found on a decent quality Iphone even. |
Re: unofficial DR database. I would like Whart’s opinion on these Led Zeppelin ratings if he sees this post. Geoffkait do you listen to Led Zeppelin through your Sony Walkman or through a regular stereo ? I have a problem with Led Zep. If I do put it on the Spl’s usually end up going high and I get in trouble. The new recent vinyl from Germany is very good & quiet. on a sidenote. I feel I have done my duty and listened to Adele 25 - 3 times now (cd). I am now ready to start a movement for women against their bad boyfriends. Someone mentioned Amy Winehouse earlier. ******************************** Amy Winehouse Back to Black (HD Tracks 96/24) 2015 07 05 08 lossless Download Amy Winehouse Back To Black (The Deluxe Album: The Classic Album + Bonus Disc) 2007 06 04 09 lossless CD Amy Winehouse Back To Black [171 421 1 EU CD] 2006 06 05 07 lossless Unknown Amy Winehouse Back to Black [UK & Europe vinyl] 2007 11 10 14 lossless Unknown Amy Winehouse Back to Black (US vinyl) 2006 10 09 12 lossless Unknown The only decent ratings come again with vinyl (last 2) and it is in my opinion not great. I have the 2006 vinyl album. You will need VTA on the fly and a tonearm that doesn’t change its alignment settings when you do use VTA with this one. ******************************** Kate Bush 50 Words for Snow - this is a phenomenal vinyl album. http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list?artist=kate+bush&album=50+words+ The ratings only show HD files and they all rate good. The vinyl must use these files ? ********************************* It appears from limited surfing of the DR database that most vinyl rates better than bad digital. And with good digital, vinyl is still right up there. ?????? If there is anyone reading that does not think a regular cd can put you at the performance in your own space. Get Holly Cole - Girl Talk - cd http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list?artist=holly+cole&album=girl+talk+ Why does the HD tracks have the crappiest rating with the Holly Cole album ? Must be really hard for the engineers who know how good digital can be ......to add all this loudness in due to the artists/market wishes. |
Let’s take a brief look at Led Zeppelin vinyl, courtesy of the Unofficial Dynamic Range Database. Led Zeppelin Houses Of The Holy (2014 Vinyl) i 2014 11 10 12 lossless Vinyl Led Zeppelin Houses of the Holy [First UK Pressing] i 1973 13 11 14 lossless Vinyl Led Zeppelin Houses of the Holy 1973 13 12 14 lossless Vinyl Led Zeppelin Led Zeppelin IV [AT/GP] i 1975 11 11 13 lossless Vinyl Led Zeppelin Led Zeppelin IV (2014 vinyl) 2014 10 09 11 lossless Vinyl Led Zeppelin Led Zeppelin IV [vinyl] i 1982. 11 11 14 lossless Vinyl Led Zeppelin Presence [Vinyl] i 2015 11 10 13 lossless Vinyl Led Zeppelin Presence i 2006 14 13 15 lossless Vinyl Led Zeppelin Presence [vinyl] i 1987 14 12 16 lossless Vinyl Led Zeppelin Led Zeppelin III (1970 USA LP Vinyl) i 1970 12 10 13 lossy Vinyl Led Zeppelin Led Zeppelin III i 2014 11 10 12 lossless Vinyl Led Zeppelin Physical Graffiti 1975 13 12 14 lossless Vinyl Led Zeppelin Coda [vinyl] i 1987 12 11 14 lossless Vinyl Led Zeppelin In Throgh The Out Door [vinyl] i 1982 13 13 14 lossless Vinyl Led Zeppelin Presence [vinyl] i 1987 14 12 16 lossless Vinyl Led Zeppelin The Soundtrack From The Film The Song Remains The Same [vinyl] i 1982 13 12 14 lossless Vinyl Led Zeppelin Physical Graffiti [vinyl] i 1987 13 11 15 lossless Vinyl Led Zeppelin Houses Of The Holy [vinyl] i 1987 13 12 14 lossless Vinyl |
Dear atmasphere: ""
This is absolute nonsense. The RIAA curve has nothing to do with compression.. """" of course is not the type of digital compression and maybe you are ok with that RIAA curve but if the LP medium is so good why that RIAA curve?, all we know why that kuind of compression in the bass range that you accept it does not means that that severe bass range equalization to lower those frequencies is a compression to me. That RIAA curve eq. always degrades the original signal but the analog medium has no alternative due to the severe limitation of the LP medium. I'm ok when you try ( always ) to post that the LP analog experience is superior to the digital one when today it's clear it's not as 20 years ago. As I said digital technology improved " light years " as never did the LP alternative. I don't care if you accept it or not the digital alternative but I think that you have not any single " parameter " to always disregard the digital alternative, especially when I post about. Stay calm, listen, listen, listen and learn as all try to do it each single audio day. Regards and enjoy the music, R. |
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It gets worse, trust me. Just when you thought it was safe to go back in the water. DR scale bad 01 02 03 04 05 06 07 Transition 08 09 10 11 12 13 Good 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 SACDs compressed, a few examples... The Who Tommy Deluxe Edition [SACD 2] i 2003 10 07 11 lossless Unknown The Who Tommy Deluxe Edition [SACD 1] i 2003 08 06 10 lossless Unknown The Who Live at The Royal Albert Hall (SACD) 2000 09 07 14 lossless Unknown Peter Gabriel Us [SACD] i 2003 09 07 12 lossless Unknown Bob Dylan. Street-Legal [SACD, SACD layer] 2003 08 08 09 lossless CD Bob Dylan. Oh Mercy [SACD-SACD layer] 2003 11 08 14 lossless CD Jeff Beck Blow By Blow [SACD] i 2006. 09 08 10 lossless Unknown Pink Floyd. Dark Side of the Moon [SACD] i 2003 10 09 11 lossless Downmix |
And when the CD mastering engineer gets a hold of it, at the very least it will get normalized (which is actually a good thing), but will likely also get compressed and may see some EQ. It has to work in a car! So this is why you see the LP showing greater dynamic range. But the ratings in the database for vinyl are higher than the HD tracks too, according to the DR database. And according to this HD Tracks link. http://www.hdtracks.com/tigerlily There are 96/24 files available. Btw - I don't know of anyone that plays HD tracks in their car. :^) |
and if you analize the RIAA curve you can see that exist a significative compression in the bass frequency range that latter on the phono stage have to be " restablished " through another RIAA eq. degradation mechanism. This is absolute nonsense. The RIAA curve has nothing to do with compression! "they will send the master digital file with the understanding that the LP mastering engineer will deal with it as needed. "Yes, it is. And when the CD mastering engineer gets a hold of it, at the very least it will get normalized (which is actually a good thing), but will likely also get compressed and may see some EQ. It has to work in a car! So this is why you see the LP showing greater dynamic range. |
Lp2cd - thanks for that information. Never knew that album existed, will listen to the sample tracks to see if I like the music. Looking to learn, if I can ask you when you say. That is not to say it couldn’t be produced to LP, but it would undoubtedly require significant compromises in dynamic range and bass response, which, knowing them, they would likely be reluctant to do. I discussed in the first post here how my talks with that engineer, discussed how with digital files going to vinyl, depending on the loudness factor, quality of the files; the bass may need to filtered or mono’ed at certain Hz, along with a filter at the High frequencies - 16k hz for example. It sounds to me that the album you reference was originally recorded very carefully so that there is little of this loudness problem and of good quality? Fair statement ? So when you say significant compromises with the vinyl, are you referring to the physical media itself involved, and maybe that few people remain, that have the skill to do the cutting properly ? And the plants the discs go to - using old equipment and crude techniques. We have all seen how they make records on youtube. Is this what you were referring to? or something else... Just one example of vinyl compromise. My understanding when they cut a record they start with large circles and grooves on the outside and it becomes smaller and smaller as you get inside. In order to accommodate 20 minutes of music the inside circles are smaller in diameter. Harder to track with a pivot tonearm especially with antiskate. Now I have Lp records from artists whose team of people recognize this vinyl design problem, and have put a single album record on two discs; the music does not go much past the physical record’s mid travel point. This is just one example imo of trying to deal with the compromise of this crude piece of plastic. This part has me curious. If I can make one more reference to the Natalie Merchant Tigerlily album and what I found surprising. Btw just an album I picked out and looked up. Am a huge fan of hers and her music gets a lot of play in my rooms. It’s a mid 90’s album 1995 and they stopped using the SPAR coding on cd’s by then. Is the music CD - DDD or ADD ? Some info from the album insert. Recorded Bearsville Studios Dec 1994 - March 1995 Additional recording The Club House, Germantown NY Mixed RPM studios, NY, Additional Mixing Sony Studios, NY Mastered Bob Ludwig, Gateway Mastering Studios, Portland ME. The interesting part for me going back to that DR database album link. btw - I am not associated with it and imo the information it provides is just that - information. if one clicks on this link http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list?artist=natalie+merchant&album=tigerlily+ According to this DR database the Vinyl versions of this album have the highest dynamic range over the CD and HD tracks. Why is this ? Lp2cd do you have an opinion on this based on your experiences ? Are we looking at a limitation of the gear being used to generate the data from the database itself ? Anyone else have an opinion on this? Curious. |
ct0517- Understand, I had nothing to do with the production of that album. (Also, Natalie Merchant is not on it...) But why would it probably not work on an LP? The short answer is that CDs are a playback medium that is altogether superior to the LP, a fact that has been argued ceaselessly but is simply true. I'll not argue it further; as has been pointed out already, the problems with CDs lay primarily with the common misuse of digital technology. (Hyper clean recordings don't sound quite right either. But that's a different issue.) On "Until the Ocean," The Horseflies made full, proper and creative use of current recording technology and the CD's capabilities. That is not to say it couldn't be produced to LP, but it would undoubtedly require significant compromises in dynamic range and bass response, which, knowing them, they would likely be reluctant to do. (The Horseflies worked, hard, on that recording for several years!) A further issue surrounding the idea of an LP version of "Until the Ocean," is that very, VERY, few people, especially at the time of its release, had LP playback equipment that would do any justice to that recording, especially if it was dialed down for LP. It's rather a challenge on good CD playback systems, which are far more common, and again, I'm certain that The Horseflies are concerned that their music be optimally heard. (They even bring the fellow who did much of the tracking for the CD, Will Russell, with them on the road to mix their live sound. They're fussy! BTW, Judy Hyman, the fiddler, is Dick Hyman's daughter...) Besides all that, at the time "Until the Ocean" was released, the LP fad was only just getting started. It would have (and still does...) require considerable extra difficulty and expense to produce an LP. It was enough for them just to produce the CD, which they never expected to sell more than a very few thousand copies. So this is all speculation on my part. I've known The Horseflies for decades, and I run into them occasionally. Next time I do, maybe I'll ask. They may very well have an answer that is all their own. |
