I’ve been cleaning my vinyl starting with spin clean then using Orbitrac cleaning then do a vacuum with record dr. And finally putting on gruv glide..and I still hear some ticks and pops. Is it impossible to get it nearly completely quiet? Would like to ask all the analog audiophiles out there. Please share what is the best method and sequence to clean vinyl..thx everyone.
"Still, one has to admit, the way the phono stage knows to make the tick happen every time the record comes around, is pretty impressive."
Cruel, but funny. I guess you just couldn't resist popping that particular balloon.
Joking aside, this can be a big issue for some audiophiles.
There's no question that certain turntable/arm/cartridge combinations can handle vinyl imperfections in a far less intrusive way than others, eg the new Technics decks are said to be good in this regard.
If this is a side effect of tracking it should be expected that better decks will perform better in this regard. Lower rumble and noise should help too by improving the music to noise ratio.
There's also the question of siting as I've found that certain platforms such as glass seem to enhance those pesky clicks and pops instead of reducing them.
Finally, its worrying that with such high prices for 180 gram vinyl here in the UK hardly a single LP is blemish free. We were surprised to find, during one vinyl playing session, that 1970s records seemed to be quieter and less click infested than most brand new records.
Not encouraging. I know its a pain but I would urge anyone affected to demand a swap or their money back. Probably the only way consumers can get the manufacturers to tighten up quality control.
Another source of "noise" in LP playback is of course groove echo resulting from the pressing of the LP itself. What's so insidious about this is that it's worst in the quietest passages -- because here the mastering engineer probably thought they could pack the grooves and one leaks into the next. On an original Berglund Sibelius ASD3216 the continuous foreshadowing through long quiet passages rendered the disc almost unlistenable -- maybe late 70s quad pressings make this phenomena worse but in a highly resolving system you'll begin to notice it all over the place
Yes. I am very used to playing entire album sides without ticks and pops.
I don't use record cleaners either.
What most people don't know, including phono preamp designers, is that the phono preamp itself is often responsible for about 90% of the ticks and pops often heard. I know this sound outrageous but I've seen this play out quite often.
How it works is like this: The cartridge and tone arm interconnect cable form a tuned resonant circuit (called a 'tank circuit' on account of the fact that the circuit can store energy at a certain frequency) due to the inductance of the cartridge and the capacitance of the cable. The resonant peak is outside of the audio band- in the case of LOMC cartridges might be over 100KHz up to several MHz. It can be as much as a 30 dB peak!
If your phono section has poor overload margin this can cause ticks and pops. And to illustrate what is meant by '30dB', this is a peak that is 1000 times higher than that of the signal itself. If you have a moving magnet high output cartridge, this peak exists at a lower frequency (in some cases might even be at the extreme upper region of the audio band) and less profound, but it can still be 20dB which is 100 times more powerful than the signal. Either way the cartridge energy sends the tank circuit into 'excitation' (oscillation) and you can get a tick or pop when the phono section briefly overloads.
There is more- some phono sections have stability problems. What many phono preamp designers don't get is that a good phono section is more than just enough gain, proper EQ and low noise. It must also resist RFI (Radio Frequency Interference, which is generated by the the tank circuit) and to do that, devices known as 'stopping resistors' (and sometimes 'RF beads') must be employed in the design. These resistors are placed at the input of a tube or other active device to prevent oscillation. If not there, it is possible for the active device to ring (oscillate) but only slightly- not oscillating all the time (if it did the design would not have gotten past quality control); just on certain input signals.
So if your phono section is stable and has good overload margin you will experience a lot less ticks and pops. I've seen this be pretty dramatic- upon hearing such ticks and pops it might seem as if the vinyl is noisy, but on a good phono preamp the same record is silent. A side benefit is that if this is so, its highly likely that if you are running a LOMC cartridge you won't have to engage in the 'cartridge loading' exercise, since that loading is all about detuning the tank circuit at the input of the preamp and thus preventing it from generating RFI.
Further, when you load a LOMC cartridge (100 ohms is common) you are making it do more work than when it drives the standard 47,000 ohms. The energy to do that work has to come somewhere and the result is that the cantilever of the cartridge and be stiffer and less able to trace higher frequencies.
Unfortunately most of the phono sections in many vintage solid state receivers were unstable and so an entire generation of audiophiles has grown up thinking LPs are loaded with ticks and pops. Usually they aren't- when an LP is mastered, the lathe cut is sent to a pressing plant and a 'test pressing' is made in order to find out if the mastering and subsequent stampers worked out properly. The artist or producer has to sign off on this test pressing and that means the test pressing had no ticks and pops so neither did the stamper. As a result, most LPs are silent when purchased but you will see many audiophiles upset about ticks and pops in vinyl and even going digital to get away from them, when quite commonly its just a poor phono section that's causing it.
@mijostyn-the issue I mentioned about phono stages has less to do with 'self-noise' of the phono stage and more about how it behaves in response to surface noise, tics, etc. Ralph Karsten of @atmasphere has written at length about that here. For stylus cleaning, Ortofon advises against using any solvents that can damage the cement used to bind the stylus to the cantilever. Other cartridges- I think it is worth checking with the manufacturer-- I know Lyra promote a liquid that is safe with their cartridges which I used when I was running Lyra cartridges, but I've only dry brushed (or on occasion, used Magic Eraser or Blu-Stuff, per Peter Ledermann) with my Airtights. My Koetsu is brand new and I've only been dry brushing so far, using a longer bristle brush than the normal 'pad' type.
Yes it is possible. Vinyl is like wine. There are good ones and bad ones. You usually get a near silent pressing with Decca, EMI, Erato, and Hamonia Mundi. Phillips and DGG about 1/2 the time. I'm sure there are other small European labels that do a good job. The worse pressings are from Rhino. I sent back 8 copies of Joy Division's Closer. Finally they ran out of copies and I picked a different record. And do not fall for that 180 gm thing. It does not get you a clean pressing. Analog Productions is the only American company you can count on. Mobile Fidelity occasionally.
Once a record is noisy it is noisy for life. The secret to having clean records is don't let them get dirty in the first place. Use a dust cover and a grounded sweep arm (Sleeve City sells one for $20). Do not put stuff on your record. The placebo effect is rampant here. Either it all evaporates (the Freon in Last) or it gums up your stylus and glues dust to the record so the next time your stylus passes by it can be ground right in. The only reason to buy a record cleaner is if you buy used records. An ultrasonic machine using distill water is the best. I use a Spin Clean with distilled water only, usually to clean other peoples records. I rarely use a stylus brush because I do not put gunk on my records and the grounded sweep arm kills static and sweeps any incidental dust out of the way. Once a month or so I clean the stylus and the sweep arm with an artist's brush and 91% iso propyl alcohol. Mix it with 25% distilled water and you have the worlds greatest windshield cleaner!
There are numerous very quiet phono stages out there. Compared to the noise on the record their noise is inconsequential. Even the quietest record has a blowing sound to it.
@whart what Bill said... all of the various formats have merits and drawbacks. Given an existing collection and limited funds, taking good care of what you have is a best practice IMO....
Like Uber, I really enjoy the one buck minty find or a disc that can be rescued with enzyme cleaners....miracle stuff !!!!
but I also spend for new vinyl which has an amazing range of quality, like the normal distribution, only worse due to the number of masters, stampers, pressing plants. The key is are YOU happy ?
Use a genuine vintage Discwasher if you can find one in good condition with D4+ fluid as maintenance. Vinyl of uncertain history should first be cleaned in the Spinclean, rinsed in distilled water and vacuumed to remove residual water. If you have problems with static, use a little more fluid on the Discwasher and use the ZeroStat from Milty-Pro before playing a side. Also make sure you have relative humidity no less than 30% in your listening room.
Yes, but there are many qualifiers; some records are inherently noisy due to manufacture; some may have been damaged by kludgey record players in the past. Some noise may be exacerbated by the cartridge and phono stage. I'd be hard pressed to summarize record cleaning best practices in a post reply. There are a million ways to clean a record. I guess my observations would be as follows: 1. Do no harm. 2. Get the fluid and contaminants off the record once that job is done. Vacuum can be very effective, but has other issues, including the potential for static and cross contamination, which can be addressed. 3. I advocate a pure water rinse- purity will vary depending on what country you are in and how compulsive you are. This gives you another shot at removing the residue of fluid, which is itself a contaminant. 4. I know nothing about Gruv-Glide. I don't use any post-cleaning additives; others may have different views. 5. Ultrasonic cleaning brings a lot to the table but for me, is not a compete solution for old records so I rely on multiple methods and steps, including ultrasonic and vacuum. 6. Fluids- pick your flavor. If you are wet cleaning, keep your brushes, vacuum lips, and anything that comes in contact with the record clean during a cleaning session and afterwards. 7. I resleeve- pick your flavor. Some shed. 8. Static is the devil and I try and minimize it through how I handle a record post-cleaning. I've found it unnecessary to rely on 'zappers' to charge/discharge. 9. I largely avoid dry brushing because I think it creates more issues than it solves. I did find one dry brush I like, but in many cases, you can do touch up (post cleaning, before or after play) using an air puffer, like the Giottos Rocket Blaster. It's around 12 dollars US on Amazon in the States for the large one.
I'm sure there are things others will add. My baseline is how it plays and long term conservation. I have found with some challenged records that multiple cleanings using both vacuum and ultrasonic are necessary. I'm sure you'll get a lot more input. I'm pretty agnostic when it comes to machines and products. That's why I didn't mention any....(except for the cheap air puffer.)
Yes it is impossible. Waste of time. Worse than a waste. We don't clean records for the satisfaction of having them play quiet, or to make the stylus last longer, but to make the music sound better. I suggest you follow BetterRecords.com advice and use the Walker enzyme cleaning process, clean the stylus every side, and nothing else. Better still, buy one of their Hot Stampers. You can have quiet or you can have music, and when you hear how good the music can be I bet you agree its worth the noise.
Not that I can't relate. For years- decades- I was in the records are great except for the noise camp. I bought all the newest, quietest vinyl, cleaned and vacuumed incessantly, all the usual BS. Then I realized almost all of the newer/quieter vinyl sounds nowhere near as good as a lot of the older/noisier records. Now I pay a hell of a lot more for USED records that sound a whole lot better. Now my VPI vacuum sits virtually unused. I only even brush a record when I see something on it, not reflexively out of habit like before. And my records probably play with less noise doing this than when I was slaving away, although best I can say is probably because honestly unless and until they get a whole lot noisier I could hardly care less. Its just not a factor.
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
