I will also add, If your cable was as profound as you believe, you would be profoundly Rich!, there would be no need to do digital audio again, you would be surely in the cable bussiness, you have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to a cable of the caliber of the Tara Labs Zero Gold with HFX grounding station, you have told me before, you never have heard of it or listened to it, in turn, I will take your post as a grain of salt! |
That is funny steve, that measurement is really the same, However, the rest of your cable has nowhere near the technology and sound of the cable I am talking about, If you do not believe me, research all that you can about the Tara Labs Zero Gold with HFX grounding station and get back to me, likly, your tone will change with inverasment! |
I should add that the PC or Mac/DAC combo introduces variables that can result in inferior SQ. The Lumin eliminates these variable by combining the computer and the DAC in one housing, with the power supply in another, thereby eliminating the USB or other interface and clocking problems. The designer has total control of the results. |
"Is computer Audio a Bust?"
Is this a serious question?? If so, the one asking is grossly uninformed and/or naive. Computer audio, when properly executed, is well established as a superior source compared to anything but a mega $$ CDP. Well done vinyl is still the best, but requires far more investment and involvement. The convenience of computer audio is inarguable. Done well, it is fantastic.
I have owned 5 different DAC's over the last 10 years, and still own 3 of them, the best one still in use in my 2nd system. My main system is served by a Lumin A-1 music server with NAS, instead of choosing vinyl much of the time!
Rather than a bust, computer audio IS the way of the future! |
I actually think you are all being a bit unfair. None of you have tried anything other than the USB. And you're knocking me. Unreal. I'm not asking anyone to trash anything and there can be no other analogy. I'm saying, rather than something "universal", why not try something specifically for audio? |
Sorry. You need a desktop for a sound card. Just noticed you have a notebook. |
Get a sound card. ESI juli@ for $149. Spdif out. All you need, plus a coax cable into your dac. |
Remember when CD spinners were a bust? It was not that long ago. They have gotten a LOT better just over the last 5 years. Many of them are simply computer audio inside too. These tend to sound the best has deliver the lowest jitter.
Same thing will happen with USB, and it already has for some manufacturers. Most are lagging in the performance of their designs, just like what happened with CD players. They will eventually catch-up.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Abuck,
Plex on amazon fire tv box with toslink out to dac, $99.
You need a hdmi tv for display.
Also you can cast from mobile devices and control from there.
Plex server software is free download and mobile app is $5 |
Cerrot - USB stands for "universal Serial Bus". Not limited to disk drives. When are you going to give up this stupid quest? You obviously don't have a clue as to the latest technology and how good it is.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
"My cables do a staggering 4 pico/farads per foot of capacitance, what does you cables do?"
Got that beat. My own cables are 3.8pF/foot. I agree that this makes a big difference, but so does the silver metallurgy. Just as important if not more.
Steve N.
Empirical Audio |
Cerrot,
By your analogy when the record player was invented they were getting bad sound so someone created ............ I am aware that you know all there is to know about USB and sound and everything audio. I am just a dumb follower of USB. Being delusional and just excepting that this is the best there is because I know no better. Thank you I now see the way and will follow your advice and trash my system and do exactly what you say obi one kenobi. Whew thank the audio gods that I woke up from that nightmare. My system still in tack and sounding great! |
OK, I'm a CA idiot. What would be the least expensive route for a guy like me to take to have very good CA without using USB? ballpark...
See my system page. I'd use my ASUS X551C notebook. |
when pc audio started everyone was getting poor sound via usb direct from their computers. then they went asynch; then they created the usb/spdif converters. I'm just trying to save you all a few steps. |
I live my life based on generalizations, so it comes natural to do so with audio.
Thus, I wish all decisions in life were as easy as this one! I must agree with Cerrot and all the other naysayers. PC audio especially done via USB is a bust!
Tubes, box speakers, solid state amps and pre-amps, horns, vinyl, electrostatic speakers are either good or bad and the 100’s of other generalizations about equipment are also applicable.
Who cares about the component’s design and more importantly, its implementation? I’ve tried a few of component type “A’s” with a few component type “G’s” and the “A’s” just suck, end of story! No way could the component’s implementation or the other components I used with it, have had an effect on the outcome!
No need to audition the 100's or 1,000's of each type of products out there. The various designs and their implementation are irrelevant! Let’s just lump equipment together by some homogeneous topography based on our individualized limited exposer and apply an absolute, yeah that’s the ticket!
In fact, one need not worry about the effects of upstream and downstream equipment. USB PC audio just sucks. In fact tubes do also. How 'bout vinyl, it's absolutely prehistoric! And who the heck would want a box speaker, when open baffle speakers are the only ones to own! Everyone knows that the box thingy just gets in the way and negatively impacts a speaker’s sonics .blah, blah, blah
Threads such as this would be laughable, if they weren’t so darn sad! If only this hobby, let alone all the variables in life were as applicable to generalizations and then firmly ensconced theorems as some posters in this thread would have us believe, they believe!
There is a very popular current thread that is about as contrary to this thread as one can be. There have been 1,000’s of views and hundreds of posts which have been very congenial and for the most part non-confrontational. While I may disagree with some of the conclusions, I can’t fault most of the posters for their open-minded perspectives, or the thread’s author for his very open approach and cogent thoughts.
Yeah, PC audio is a bust and the earth is flat, don’t fall off! |
No. I'm saying usb is really bad and the stock is the worse. If you're gonna use it, at least get a dedicated PCIe card. At least use the optimum USB platform. |
Cerrot, are you trying to say that for moving audio bits from a computer to a DAC, USB 3.0 will give better sound quality than USB 2.0? I already know the answer to the question, I just want to understand if that's what you're trying to say. |
USB was what kept me away from computer audio, but I finally decided to give it a try because of the convenience and my player supported it. Since digital is not my primary source I figured I had nothing to lose. However, after moving to wired Ethernet I have to say I would not go back to USB or playing discs. It has been a noticeable difference. |
Get-em Cerrot!, I was made fun of extensivly on this thread for saying all that I have about usb cables and terminations, I was polite as I could be, and explained very well, did not matter, I suppose we know NOTHING, and the mass knows it all, Ha,Ha,LOL!, It's all fun gentleman, do whats best for you, I plan on it. |
I would always tend to steer away from converters. One more hard to quantify variable to throw in the mix. Keep it simple. USe good quality devices and wires intended to work together out of the gate. Things can never be better using a converter/adapter, only worse. |
Regarding those of you using USB - how many of you understand the 2.0 and 3.0 and how many understand that the stock USB interface on the mobo is horrible and if you are actually SERIOUS of trying to get the most out of usb audio, get a PCIe 3.0 USB card and hear the difference. Maybe then you will understand where I am coming from. Its like putting vegetable oil in your ferrari - why??? get real gas. Once you try the 3.0, now that you are not afraid of opening up your computer-buy an ESI Juli@ soundcard for $149 and you will hear how that blows away the 3.0 - and now you can return the expensive USB/spdif converter & cables. Dont the logical ones out there see how silly the USB thing is? |
|
Oh, it's not only a bust, but a "fricken" bust? Well, when you put it THAT way I think we have no choice but to acquiesce. |
You're a good egg Mapman. Wish I could talk more, but I have to get back to the kitchen...I'm very carefully unwrapping the outer sleeve of a salami in one long 1/8" strip - I plan to use it to replace my USB cable. |
Bc,
I hear you.
I am a glutton for punishment sometimes I suppose, but I do like to refute inaccurate or questionable things that get published when I feel I am knowledgeable enough or qualified to do so. Jut to help keep things straight. Its a dirty job, but one that every knowledgeable music and audio lover should partake in.
Just be sure to keep a sense of humor around as well..... |
cerrot, I agree with your truth!, usb is a fricken bust!,I have said that here till i'm tired of it, any way, doing computer auio without usb is possible and should be done by all! |
I'm with you Mapman, but I think you're beating your head against the wall, unfortunately.
"You don't use USB for audio"
"USB is too polluted"
"There is no proper way of using USB"
Cerrot isn't talking in terms of potential, or possibilities, or advancing technology, or implementations. He talks in absolutes - USB is unusable for audio in his mind. To him, there is no other answer, end of discussion, don't bother with further examination.
We've had this discussion with him in another thread, explaining that I'm getting great audio quality over USB, and to him this is all a fig newton of my imagination. He doesn't care if aliens from 5000 years into the future show up with some nanoo-nanoo technology that makes USB sound like angels caroling in your ears - he'll tell the aliens the same thing, "you aliens need to use SPDIF". The fact that, just for example, the Oppo BDP-105 (which I don't own, but may buy for a 2nd system) is getting rave upon rave reviews, including for its sound quality over USB (it has XMOS chip + asynch USB), has no bearing in Cerrot's thinking. To him, all those reviews are a USB conspiracy, not unlike the Loch Ness conspiracy. The ONLY thing USB should be used for, other than computer mice, is to put some marinara sauce on top and to be enjoyed with a nice Chianti.
And with that, I'm going to go listen to my Coby $10 walkman-clone playing a heat-damaged Debbie Gibson CD through an 89 cent USB cable into a pair of speakers I made from Adidas shoeboxes and drivers pulled from the doors of a '71 Plymouth station wagon. That's not actually my system, but that's the system that Cerrot will tell you is the only system that should consider USB. |
If one simply buys a recent design good quality USB DAC designed for optimal performance, like BEnchmark for example, (need not cost much), you should be in very good shape.
Much easier than getting a good turntable and then having to match everything and set it up properly. Its a relative piece of cake. |
CErrot,
Bandwidth + good design is the key. The data must be available at the time needed. Then as in all cases, the d2a conversion process must be done well. All within the capabilities of the technology, but only if done right.
Same with any source. How many cheap crappy ceramic cart turntables are out there compared to the good stuff? Same story. |
You don't use USB for audio. You use SPDIF, USB is too polluted. There is no proper way of using USB. It transmits data in packets, not streams. |
Hi Bcgator, I enjoyed your post, you are correct, however, I will not take the plunge of computer audio on my main system that I am tring to build, computer audio along with a vinyl set-up would be great for a second system that I will be building, this will have an active pre-amp or likly an intergrated amp, Here is one thing no one on this thread realized, at the cost of the cables I have and that I will be up-grading to, I cannot afford all them cables!, to keep my main system as simple as I can for pure signal transmission, and attempt to get the clearest sound I can afford, the main system will have nothing but an interconnect and speaker cables, and jumper cables on the speakers, these fellas do not know that I agree that I should be up with the times, it would be fun to do a second system consisting of computer audio and a turn table set-up, of course I already have the Tara Labs model The One 1-meter balanced analog interconnect and 6ft speaker cables in the closet to start a second system, I will ask these gentleman for their help with computer audio when the time comes, when the money is available!, right now, this main system is killing me money wise!, I do not have regrets for the cables I have on that system at all, these two systems will be two different anaimals, the main, the Best state of the art that I can afford, the second would be a build to a particular price point consisting of the computer audio these chaps have talked me into, all I was saying all along was that a usb cable and the usb terminations cannot perform to the caliber of the cables I have now on the main system, I would be very happy to get some performance out of alot cheaper cables, the Tara The one is no cheap cable by no means!, It's performance is very musical and I will always love the sound of that model, However, the cost of out-fitting with that cable model will not cause a re-morgage of the house like the cables on the main system!, cheers gentleman. |
Agear,
As I understand it, USB asynch mode is one of several mmodes of operation for USB. It is intended to assure bandwidth,which is needed for high res audio to stream fast enough to keep up with playback. It also allows the "peripheral"device to be in control. You want that to be a DAC of high quality which includes an accurate clock to keep jitter minimal. In lieu of that, computer/server assumes that responsibility and other modes not as well suited for audio sound quality may come into play. |
I've petitioned congress to create national "Computer Audio is Dead!" and "USB cables should not be used for anything except tying shoes!" days for Audiolabyrinth and Cerrot, respectively. I admire Agear and others for attempting honest, rational discourse, but I'm quite certain that Audiolabyrinth and Cerrot are as interested in discussing both sides of the issue as John Corzine is in talking about where the missing MF Global money went. You guys can keep trying, but you'll probably have better luck getting the neighbor's dog to explain why he picked the last place he excreted his breakfast. |
I probably should not enter into these conversation because like the man said "you don't spit into the wind". Having said that I love my server and it sounds fantastic. "You don't pull on supermans cape". Now cables I have tried some and owned some very expensive highly reviewed cables(speaker, inter connectors and USB). But I only bought when the price was so good I knew could sell with out loosing money. I am yet to hear any significant difference or any at all for that matter. "You don't mess around with Jim". Du du du du du du du..... http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130830065058/cardfight/images/7/7a/Smiley-face-1600x1200-wallpaper-775678.jpg |
OR just take the easy way out and blame the product or format or technology in general. Much easier that way.... |
"Computer audio via USB is an absolute BUST! USB is for connecting peripherials - not for music!"
IT can work well for music but not designed only for that.
The USB based setup has to be designed to work properly for high quality sound. Not all are, which makes it trickier to get right than SPDIF, which was designed for A/V use.
So it may be a bust in some cases, but not if done right.
Good news its probably much easier and affordable to get really good sound with computer audio than with lp vinyl.
I'd be willing to bet the % of good quality home computer setups out there today is way higher than the corresponding % of vinyl rigs ever out there at any time. That's good news for most people, but if your vinyl setup is high quality, then you have a higher reference quality to meet or better and some effort of a different type will be required to do it. |
08-06-14: Cerrot
Computer audio via USB is an absolute BUST! USB is for connecting peripherials - not for music! I don't have experience with computer audio via USB but isn't DACs consider a peripheral? Like a printer, ... it receives data from server? So why is it a BUST? They can't improve the USB hardware, drivers and cables? |
08-06-14: Cerrot
Computer audio via USB is an absolute BUST! USB is for connecting peripherials - not for music! I know a lot of people who feel that way including an engineer who designs outstanding digital front ends (Exemplar Audio)..... So, that begs the question as to WHAT IS NECESSARY to make USB work? Galvanic isolation? Asynchronous streaming? Isolation of power and data within cabling (Light Harmonic, etc) Active reconstruction after the fact (BMC Pure USB cable) What???? |
Computer audio via USB is an absolute BUST! USB is for connecting peripherials - not for music! |
08-06-14: Agear
08-06-14: Joecasey
Are you trying to be kind??? You're giving him way too much credit.
Now you're the one being bad Joecasey (but also funny...) If the shoe fits, wear it! |
08-06-14: Audiolabyrinth
one more time!, computer audio is a bust! Ha! At least your a good natured troll with a sense of humor.... For the record, I agree with your statements about the influence of cabling. I have experienced it too. Happy listening.... |
|
one more time!, computer audio is a bust! |
08-06-14: Joecasey
Are you trying to be kind??? You're giving him way too much credit. Now you're the one being bad Joecasey (but also funny...) |
opps, oh, the noise floor, My cables do a staggering 4 pico/farads per foot of capacitance, what does you cables do?, I can litterally hear the musicians turn the pages of their music books and feet shoffel on the floor while the music is played, a spectacular wow factor to me! |
wow!, you guys do not have nothing better to do, really, come on, a tweak, I do not think so!, my cables are the main componet of the system!, I build like no one you know, If a componet does not sound good or has a forward sound stage, that componet is gone!, there is more ways to skin a cat here to get a sound an individual wants, I am not asking anyone to like my cables or the way I build, the answer to your question, I have a 1-meter balanced Tara Labs Zero Gold with HFX grounding station interconnect running from digital source direct to amplifier, and I have the Tara labs Omega 10" jumper cables on my bi-amp speakers, I have the Tara Labs Omega Gold 6ft speaker cables on the speakers as well, and I have the Tara Labs 3ft cobalt power cord with oyaide terminations, on the cd-player, The amp is a brand new moddified Krell 700cx, meaning the caps are 2014 that was not available in the production year of my amp in 2005, yes they sound a whole lot better than the caps previously, that Krell did them selfs a couple months back, yes my interconnect cost more than any one thing in my system, yes my speaker cables cost more than my interconnect, the sound is very profound to me, at the end of the day, all that matters is what I live with for a system that sounds good to my ears, thankyou gentleman. |
For those not in the know, the definition of troll taken from the Urban dictionary is:
07-23-14: Onhwy61
Audiolabyrinth, you're becoming overwrought and approaching troll like comments. You're just another person with a profound tweak. It speaks for itself.
Onhwy61 (System | Threads | Answers | This Thread)
08-05-14: Agear
Oops. Here is the definition from Urban dictionary:
troll
One who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument Are you trying to be kind??? You're giving him way too much credit. |
Oops. Here is the definition from Urban dictionary:
troll
One who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument |
Humor is a balm, yes, but so is logic. :/ 07-23-14: Onhwy61
Audiolabyrinth, you're becoming overwrought and approaching troll like comments. You're just another person with a profound tweak. It speaks for itself.
Onhwy61 (System | Threads | Answers | This Thread) For those not in the know, the definition of troll taken from the Urban dictionary is: 07-23-14: Onhwy61
Audiolabyrinth, you're becoming overwrought and approaching troll like comments. You're just another person with a profound tweak. It speaks for itself.
Onhwy61 (System | Threads | Answers | This Thread)
So, one last time: labyrinth, what does your system consist of? What % of expenditure do your cables comprise? I do agree that cables can have a major impact on a system, but the impact can vary based on other variables such as noise floor. |
Grins!, yes, this hobby needs more good humor, after all, they are just mere stereo systems, or are they?, LOL! |
