Is Coincident Statement Phono pre-amp an overkill

This has been an interesting thread. It explored a topic we all are involved in, kind of a universal process for all of us. I go with the theory of get a piece, a really good one, that you can build your reference around. There are very few of us who wouldn't feel pretty good about a Coincident Linestage. Congratulations!

Enjoy your new preamp!

I've had my Coincident phono stage for about 2 years, and I like it a LOT. As I've upgraded my turntable, my tonearm(s), and my cartridge(s), I've never had the slightest urge to upgrade my phono stage.

After being advised by a fellow audiophile in Europe that the weak link in this unit is the volume control, I sent it to Bill Thallman in Springfield, VA to bypass the internal volume control and I now run it into an Emia (Slagel designed) passive attenuator that feeds my tube monoblocks. And it sounds just great.

Interesting update.

Hi Lewm,

Actually the line stage on Coincident Phono is better than direct CD player connection to the Coincident power amp (which has its own volume control).
The bass and "weight" of the music came back and "deflation" caused by lack of pre-amp has vanished.

Burn-in will take some time. Then I will know if I can live without an active line-stage (fingers crossed).

The line-stage in the phono does not have any gain however its not passive.

Am trying to figure out a MC Cartridge for Clearaudio Concept, which is proving to be a challenge (i do not want to get the clearaudio mc cart).

Essrand,
I assumed you listened initially to your phono section prior to your post.

Ummm... I think you did the right thing, but let's wait until you actually hear what the unit actually sounds like as a phono stage, before we go all orgasmic. If you are listening to the "linestage", isn't that only essentially a passive volume control? (I can't remember for sure, but I think there is no active linestage built in; it just acts as an attenuator.)

Hi Essrand,
Congratulations on acquiring the Coincident preamp. Your were given a
variety of heart felt opinions on this thread from well meaning people. My
gut feeling was this is the right decision ( I would have just skipped the EAR

and gone straight to the Coincident Phono stage), short and long term for
you. I believe that you
can't go wrong with owning pure top tier components. They become the
long lasting foundation that you can build your system around over time
and not have to look back. True quality endures and in reality saves you
money by avoiding the frequent and dreaded "upgrade merry go
round". You own a premium product that you may likely never
outgrow ( unless the curiosity bug to try something different strikes). Now
you can steadily build your record collection and know that you have
wonderful components to enjoy them with. Good job!
Charles,

Hi Essrand, Your new Coincident will get even better within short time of use.
I truly feel that you have world class performance with that unit.
Any (if any) future upgrades should be worked around it. Enjoy!! :)

3 Months Later. To provide a conclusion to this fantastic thread.

I first made the "rational" choice and got the EAR 834P. Enjoyed it for a while.

I was later convinced that getting CSPS would obviate the need for a line stage for my Digital (so true!).

Sold the EAR 834P and my Coincident Phono arrived just yesterday !

Am super excited.

The line stage of the CSPS sounds as good if not better than my previous line stage.

Still need to updgrade my analog frontend to become MC (its MM now) sigh!
But do not regret the decision.

The CSPS at $4500 even $6000 is a steal !

Essrand, Building an audio system is relevant to a mathematical equation.
The problem is to find the values or solutions. You are deciding on variables or unknowns. The Statement Preamp will get you closer to your desired binary relation which would be the equals (=) of your goals end.
My system was put together solely based on much research and testimony on user's accolades. I would feel as confident in Coincident Preamp and Amplifiers.
I went for the Doshi Alaap which offers more Phono choices (cost reflective!!) which you do not require. Lewm previously mentioned of a friend who traded Alaap for the Statement. That speaks A LOT to me!
You have an opportunity to attain world-class Amplification performance!

I know cartridges are a world in itself. I would just start with the most inexpensive MC cartridge that would be compatible with the Concept turnarm.

The Denon 103r should work. Dirt cheap here. Plus one of the reviews of the Coincident asserted that it plays well with the Denon.

I find that there's such a thing as over-deliberation. Even in the absence of all the facts, sometimes one just needs to make a decision, one way or the other, and move on. Moreover, you now have 25 records (and counting?); give them some love.

Based on my interactions with Israel over the past 4 years, he'd rather lose his right hand and an eye(maybe even an ear) before he'd compromise anything related to the signal path. Purity and simplicity of the audio signal is his mantra.
Charles,

Hi Lew,

Yes, it is described as using a SUT, and I'd imagine that it could be bypassed internally and a suitable resistive termination put in place. But it seems clear from the description that internal modifications would be required, and I doubt that many of us would want to do that to such a special piece. Or even have Israel do that, if in fact he would be willing to.

And of course the mod would have to be undone later if the OP eventually goes to a LOMC, unless the design were further modified with the addition of a switch and wiring changes, the result very conceivably being a signal path that is compromised to some degree.

I suppose also that an external SUT could be purchased and used in the reverse direction, to reduce the voltage and increase the load impedance. But that doesn't seem to make much sense either, sonically or financially.

My basic feeling, fwiw, is that something as special as this piece should be kept in stock form, and used as its designer intended.

Best regards,
-- Al

Hey Al, Doesn't the Coincident have a built-in SUT, and is there not the possibility to bypass the SUT, if you have an MM? I guess not, based on what you wrote. I am quite surprised.

Al is corect regarding cartridge criteria with the Coincident.

Essrand, just as with moving magnet cartridges, the Sumiko Blue Point Evo III moving coil cartridge is not compatible with the Coincident Statement Phono Stage. Its output is too high (2.5 mv), and it requires a 47K load, which the Coincident does not provide. You need a low output moving coil cartridge if you want to use that phono stage.

Regards,
-- Al

onhwy61, That was a good question and I was pondering upon it myself too.
What cartridge would I get, if I go for the coincident.

I know cartridges are a world in itself. I would just start with the most inexpensive MC cartridge that would be compatible with the Concept turnarm.

I do not know what that would be. My best guess right now is Sumiko Bluepoint evo 3. Since the dealer from whom I bought the TT (used), suggested it.

Metralla,
Here is another way I look at my system.
I have been looking and its very hard to find an EAR 834P used (They have come up only 3 times in the 3 months)

Buying one new = $2000 (with taxes)
Sell it down the road -> $1000 loss
OR
sell the Triode ($2000) + $2500 = Coincident Phono
Risk is that Coincident Phono does have a great line stage as stereomojo suggests. And i have to get a line stage down the road for my digital.

Essrand, in relation to the point I raised in my earlier post you may find it useful to read the following thread, and also the thread that is linked to in the post in that thread by Thom_Mackris (Galibier turntable designer):

Largest Impact - Arm or Cart?

As you'll see, although opinions are divided there is considerable support among the assembled experts for the notion that the quality and performance of the turntable and tonearm are more important than that of the cartridge.

Regards,
-- Al

Taste may come into it, but the fundamental determining parameters are imposed by the tonearm.

Since the Concept can come with the Clearaudio Concept MC, we could get a line on suitable cartridges from Fremer's review:

The MC weighs 8gm and has a moderately high output of 0.4mV at 5cm/s. Its body is made of an alloy of aluminum and magnesium coated with a layer of ceramic, and its boron cantilever is fitted with a Micro Line stylus. The suggested vertical tracking force (VTF) is 2gm, ±0.2gm; the recommended loading is 100 ohms.

I would imagine that spending more than $1200 on a cartridge for this player may not be cost effective.

Regards,

Good question Onhwy61, but for me more difficult to answer. Phono stages are a fundamental component and a great one has universal appeal and function in many settings. Cartridges are more varied and personal in that they all have an "individual signature" no matter how good they are. So this will really depend on Essrand's taste and overall sonic goal for his system IMHO. Essrand what is your musical/sonic target when all is said and done?
Charles,

Let's say the OP buys the Coincident phono preamp. Based upon the go for the best and only purchase once philosophy, what phono cartridge would you recommend?

Hi Metralla,
"Hey all in fun", of course!
Coincident phono = a prime Labron James.
EAR= an aging Kevin Garnett.
Charles,

Fair comment. The Stereophile review certainly points out the weaknesses of the phono stage. For instance: "The amplifier's overall dark perspective reflected very laid-back extreme high frequencies and an overly round midbass".

I did not mean to make it a battle between the EAR and the Coincident. I am not stupid. But I do think in the context of the original poster's system $1000 is about the right expenditure at this stage. Perhaps there are much better choices than the EAR around that price point.

Regards,

What you don't realize is that the EAR could actually have been a great band-aid for ALON's system at the show. ALON speakers are on the very forward and brighter side. Placing the EAR in that system which is on the warmer side probably helped. I would rather start with less of a band-aid and more of a neutral piece.

Charles1dad,

In researching my answer I read the Stereophile review of the Tim De Paravacini phono stage. The EAR 834P has been around for a very long time. The review is originally from 1997 and is a good review; but what I was quite impressed by was the story of Carl Marchisotto (Alon, now Nola) using the EAR between his Phalanx/Poseidon speakers with Audio Research electronics, and a VPI TNT 'table with a JMW Memorial arm and a Clearaudio Insider cartridge.

Now Carl is no fool when it comes to show demos and could have used a much more expensive phono stage there. But there we had the $900 phono stage in a $125,000 system.

http://www.stereophile.com/phonopreamps/797ear/

I am extending your analogy. Now is not the time to lash out on a superstar. Now is the time to buy a great player for a lot less money, perhaps one who is a little long in the tooth and near the end of his career; but who will fit in with the team in the position where there is weakness, and really give the team a solid boost. Shades of "Moneyball". Meanwhile, keeping most of the money in the bank for that next star player that you really need.

Hey, all in fun.

Regards,

Metralla,
You point out the imbalanced quality of components and I agree. Getting
the EAR is not an upward/final destination choice, it just fits in with the
current analog level. To use a sports analogy, draft the best athlete/player
you can get. Make this draft pick your foundation and build round him with
other good players (a rising tide philosophy). I'd get the great player
(Coincident) rather than the lesser player (EAR) that just satifies a vacant
slot temporarily. But I do understand your reasoning as well. The
Coincident phono +the Dragon mono blocks = two very impressive building
blocks for the very long term.
Charles,

I love spending other people's money. ;-)

Clearaudio Concept TT $1400
Concept MM cartridge $250
Coincident Dragons (used) $5000 (?)
Triode TRX-1 Preamp $3000
Vienna Acoustics Haydn $900
Pyle pro phono amp $15

Where are the weak links?

Spend $4500 on a Coincident Phono stage, or spend $895 on a EAR 834P (upgrade that $15 phono stage) and put the $3500 towards your next pair of speakers?

I know what I would do.

Regards,

Charles, I don't disagree with the "go for it" philosophy. I only advocate careful decision-making, and THEN go for it.

Well two different camps have emerged, both are rational. Personally I wouldn't waste time with buying .the EAR phono stage(when you aspire for better). Get the best now and gradually bring your other components to this same high standard over time. As Onhyw61 said earlier, this isn't a race. Brett(Isochronism), you and I think alike in this matter. Nice thread.
Charles,

Get the EAR 834P.

Maybe one day you will have a table, arm and cartridge that can make the most of a phonostage like the Coincident.

In my opinion, you want to try to keep some sort of balance even during the upgrade process. There will come a time when you make a big jump to the next level - but I don't think this is the right one.

Just let it slide out of your mind and don't think about what could have been. It will come around.

Regards,

10-26-13: Essrand
I did expect to keep the TT (Clearaudio Concept) for a few years. I hope getting the Coincident will not make do that upgrade too.

Based on a quick read-through of this thread, it seems to me that this is the major issue that needs to be considered. As Banquo mentioned earlier, the Coincident phono stage will not work properly with your present cartridge. In addition to the gain issue he mentioned, it does not provide suitable loading for MM's. So you'll want to invest in a high quality LOMC, that will do justice to the phono stage, and not require further upgrading in the foreseeable future. And although I'm not familiar with the Concept, I'd seriously question whether a $1400 turntable + tonearm would do justice to that cartridge, if used as anything more than a temporary stopgap.

I don't mean to be discouraging, but I'm just suggesting that if you go for the Coincident you should be prepared for the possibility that you'll want to upgrade the turntable and tonearm sooner rather than later. And seconding Isochronism's point about buying once, that upgrade, done right, is likely to involve considerable $.

Regards,
-- Al

Edit: will "NOT" be encumbered. Case in point. When the system is GOOD! And the music is GOOD!, do not attempt anything else while being fully immersed..

I have always found that (with research/patience) buying once is THE best policy. If it is affordably doable, get what will best be in play with your system, period!!
Then your LP music search will be encumbered.

Hi Onhhy61,
I clearly understand your point and it's logical. I feel that Essrand is committed to building a LP collection that can be enjoyed for a lifetime. I rather buy the Coincident Phono now (if it's within budget) rather than the lesser component only then to upgrade later anyway.

Lewm, I'm not suggesting this is a 'once in a lifetime deal', however 25% off is very good for this top shelf phono stage. Yes there's more than one approach to this situation. I'm just a believer in getting the higher quality gear when you can(and when the price is right), most often there's no looking back. I know Essrand will make his own decisions, I'm just trying to be helpful.
Charles,

Charles1dad, everything you just said is true. My point is that despite those truths, having so little invested in vinyl might no warrant such a large investment in equipment. While there is no magic number of LPs that triggers getting state of the art equipment I would argue that an element of common sense should apply. Another way of stating the issue is to ask whether the OP would be better off with 250 more records and the EAR phono stage versus his two dozen LPs and the Coincident?

I have refrained from commenting on the cost, but let's keep in mind that Coincident sells direct, not through dealers. Therefore, Coincident can sell any of its products for any price that Israel Blume deems to be acceptable, regardless of the "list price". Thus, it is not a given that this opportunity to buy at a large discount is "once in a lifetime", if the OP wants to wait to make a decision. In other words, I would not encourage the OP to make this purchase solely because of the discount.

Hi Onhwy61,
Essrand can certainly build his record library over time as most anyone has done, there is quite a resource available. My point for encouraging him is this, he can buy a superior product for a rare discounted price. This will match his premium level power amplifier and form a superb foundation (and likely avoid the dreaded component merry go round). In the long term he saves money and reduces anxiety and second guessing. He'll have wonderful sound as he buys more and more records.
Charles,

Essrand, I use to own the CAT SL-1 Signature. I found the preamp to be very open and dynamic, but very foward in the midrange. In the end I got tired of this sound. My friend had the Ultimate with the same results. Good luck.

Other feel free to disagree, but from my perspective someone considering a Coincident, or for that matter even the EAR, should have more than 25 LPs. It's putting the equipment before the music.

Hi Charles1dad.
Unfortunately there is no way for me to audition the Coincident without purchasing it.
And yes your assumption is right about phono perf being primary consideration.

Banquo, your words are full of wisdom. My LP collection is already rivaling my CD collection in quality, though far far less in quantity (25 LPs). Hence the anxiety to get the phono quick.

I am hoping that the Coincident Phono does not need a line stage to reach its maximum potential, given that I own a Coincident Amp.

I'm making the assumption that Essrand is buying predominantly for phono pefformance with the line stage a secondary consideration.

Essrand,
You actually heard the CAT preamp (good move) and were impressed. Will you have a chance to hear the Coincident Phono stage under similar conditions?

Echoing Raul (and Nietzsche): you can't fly into flying. As someone with no more than one record, you understandably have more questions than answers. But, as Lewm suggested, the only way to get satisfactory answers is to listen to different components in your own system for a goodly amount of time.

IMO, given where you are and given that you don't have unlimited resources, the most salient consideration is resale value. You have 2 world class options; just pick the one that 'guarantees' you won't lose money. That way you can start the game and enjoy that record of yours, and rest assured that should you want to change it up you won't sink further into debt. If both meet that condition, flip a coin.

I kind of like an active linestage, myself.
I think the OP has one, but I am not sure it is up to the level of excellence of the Statement.

Most likely if you really liked the sound of the active pre-amp. It is a matter of personal preference whether you use an active pre-amp or not. There are many discussions related to this topic within the forum.

Also, as already pointed out, the CAT SL1 might not sound exactly the same in your setup.

Essrand- I have not compared the CAT to the Coincident, but you have introduced an active pre-amp into the equation. To my ears, the influence of a top notch active line stage on the overall sound of a system cannot be overstated. I believe that it is the "heart" of the system. Just my opinion. Which is not to say that I don't think that my LSA passive is not one of, if not the best bargain in audiol. Flame away everyone. I've got my asbestos tightie-whites on.

Those are two superb choices and it would simply be a matter of one's opinion. But it would be best to form an opinion after prolonged audition in one's own system. Nothing else counts.

I apologize for beating this topic to death, but yesterday I dealer demo-ed the CAT SL1 Renaissance with built-in Phono.

I was wondering how the Coincident Phono compares to this pre-amp.
The CAT was unbelievable. Blew my mind.

Would the Coincident Phono + Coincident Dragon
beat
CAT SL1 Preamp + Coincident Dragon.

If they are both close I would prefer the Coincident for sure.

Basically I am trying to understand if after buying the Coincident Phono, will i have to splurge on a World class pre-amp to get the best performance.

Most CDPs without a volume control will need some form of external attenuation, be it the passive control on something like the Statement or a stand-alone passive attenuator, or an active control on a conventional linestage.
They typically output 2V of signal. 0.5 to 1V is enough to drive most amplifiers to full output.

Sorry, Charles. I was not thinking about the match between the phono stage and the amplifier. I was thinking about the impedance match between an outboard high level source, such as a CDP, and the volume control. With a minimum of thought and information about the input impedance of the control, there probably would not be a problem, however.