Srajan, over at 6moons, has found a SD card is the best way to listen since it leaves out the computer (with all it's noise), leaves out streaming (with all the various boxes, decrapifiers, cabling, etc.) and CD playback (spinning disks, vibrations and noise).
It hasn't a fancy UI that one can go ooooh and ahhhh over but it's a time proven technology that's pristine in it's playback. You can make lots of files of music on a postage stamp size format, separated out any which way you want but you have to settle for the low tech readout and it limits playback options. Not a big sacrifice to make for great sound, or so he says.
I don't see why USB playback would differ unless one can get a better device optimized for it instead of what comes with an all in one integrated (not to knock your integrated but on most like that, it's more a convenience).
All the best,
Nonoise
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Thanks, I agree - why spend a small fortune on expensive hardware that's not actually needed to get great sound. I understand my 'all in one' solution could be bettered, but again, at a massive increase in price.
The 6Moons 'thing' is another proprietery device, which is very expensive. Like the Roon machine, basically a PC in a fancy box with,,, blah blah blah inside, which I see as unecessarily overpriced. If I had Thousands of $/£ to spend then it may be worth persuing, but these pieces of, basically, PC hardware, seem like a complete rip off to me, like Etthernet switches which can also cost thousands. The cheapest 'Audio' switches are about £500, and are based on c£40 switches, with very little done to the 'modded' version to warrant the huge increase in price!
There's a lot of bandwagon jumping on IMO.
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Lots of things I'd invest money in before looking for an alternative.
Room acoustics, a comfortable couch... :)
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Actually, the device that Srajan uses is a S.M.S.L. SD-9, which goes for around $400. It replaced a Soundaware that went south on him. I’ve read where is has some glitches with other features but the SD card reader part is a solid performer.
I have no financial interests: i just read this. For some reason, some here take exception to stuff I link to from 6moons.
All the best,
Nonoise
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Yes is is to me. Portable SSDs trump Synology.
But I also play vinyl, cheap streaming like Qobuz, internet radio and free streaming like BandCamp & Soundstream.
But if you are frugal, limit yourself.
$400 of DigliOne Sig/Nirvana does all that except spin LPs.
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a USB stick into my NAIM Atom is excellent, rivals the Synology NAS and both are improved by the $50 or so Audioquest Jitterbug
@nonoise i appreciate your constructive post and links
I am a robot with a noise killing jitterbug in every port
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Got it.
All the best.,
Nonoise
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I've never used a USB stick I have about 3.5TB in a Synology NAS streaming through an Auralic Aries Mini. The NAS with two 4TB drives cost me $557 the Mini lightly used $449 had both for 5+ years now they work great and super reliable.
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Either hard drive storage system provides the same audio performance in my BRYSTON digital player and BRYSTON DAC system … a USB stick or NAS makes no difference . I use the USB stick 90% of the time because it’s faster
The DAC that is paired up to the digital player / streamer is the “silver bullet” step- up to improving your digital music appreciation…. (And of course with a high-end cable linking the player to DAC in a 2 box system) …. It’s not the digital file storage medium.
my stablemate BRYSTON DAC with a CARDAS CLEAR cable bested my prior ARCAM DAC and ATLAS cable.
Ditto for no difference in USB vs NAS storage reproduction using the USB input on my other high-end DAC in my REGA ISIS VALVE cdp/DAC with a CARDAS CLEAR cables loom array.
FWIW ….
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@erik_squires - I'm not looking to 'invest' in anything. I'm simply putting the question out there, as there seems very little discussions going on around my question.
@fuzztone - I'm not frugal, quite the reverse, but I'm also not dumb. I don't see the need to spend, possibly, thousands, to get no, or very liitle SQ improvement. I'm willing to try anything out. I'm open to all possibilities - although expensive fuses in your mains pre/power amp input is where I draw the line! In a speaker, yes, maybe, as they're in the direct line of music. People get drawn in by 'good' dealers selling Foo. 'Good' meaning good at their job, the job of SELLING stuff.
@tomic601 - Where would I use the Jitter Bug in my scenario? The Jitter Bug that's been reviewed many times, and most conclusions are - the only thing a Jitter Bug does is relieve you of $60/£50!
@jond - So you spent c$1k. My NAS (920+) + 3x6Tb drives came to about the same, but my 32Gb stick was £12. A slight difference. And music from the stick sounds better. I've seen people who've spent c$10k on a streaming setup. Maybe they couldn't directly stream into their renderer from a USB drive/stick; maybe they haven't even tried it. Scared to no doubt after that expense. c$10k v $10. One would imagine/think/BELIEVE that the $10k setup would be much better. If so, by how much, if at all (that's not a question btw)?
@akg_ca Thank you, and everyone here, for the useful input. Although you say the USB is equally good as your NAS. There's so so much written about LOTS of noise produced by a NAS/Switch/PC/Cableing, and how much one needs to spend to alleviate it, which is what prompted my original question. A USB stick obviates the need for any of that, IF your renderer has a USB input.
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@daveteauk Yes you are correct the only way to get a better sound would be if your streamer had a SSD internal hard drive. A USB is essentially a SSD. I recently bought a Sandisk 2TB portable SSD which is like a giant USB. Thing with USB is you can play it in the car too : )
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When I look at the value of my time then streaming services and Roon are pretty easy to justify. I think many of us have more money than time these days unless you're retired. Then there is the whole aspect of the user interface. I can't remember the last time I used something like a memory stick for music storage definitely more than a decade ago. The phone provides the music for the car with more than adequate quality.
I think if I took a poll I would find that more people who use turntables more and have two amplification are the ones complaining about noise then those with all solid state and primarily digital. It's a guess but I have a feeling it's going to be somewhat accurate. What does that tell me? I think most people can figure that one out. You can transfer noise over USB but that can be solved for somewhere between 20 and $100. Noise over ethernet is a really big stretch at best. And who is to say that there's not something screwed up in the DAC powering the USB stick doesn't cause more noise?
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Sounds like you are in the UK or I would just send one in the post to try. The jitterbug plugs into a port and usb stick plugs into Jitterbug
my NAS lives in a closet far away from listening space with clean power and a high speed gaming switch. The USB stick is great sonics, happy w either.
jim
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OP:
I can see you are going to be one of those difficult one's. OK, fine I'm in the mood.
@erik_squires - I'm not looking to 'invest' in anything. I'm simply putting the question out there, as there seems very little discussions going on around my question.
Did I say you? Did I say you should invest? Could you not infer a bridge between my answer and your question, that it's really not a good investment, and therefore not really requiring much discussion?
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OP: “ …. There’s so so much written about LOTS of noise produced by a NAS/Switch/PC/Cableing, and how much one needs to spend to alleviate it, which is what prompted my original question.…”
This recent percolating narrative is way overdone and a pathway down a rabbit hole to avoidable frustration IMO. You don’t have to have to worry about expensive digital logistics loom FOMO other than a basic respect for common very basic build quality…., and just pause…use your own ears instead of a lot of the printed biased narrative, and focus more on the digital equipment AND less on the selected portion of the digital cable loom logistics and the loom nodes before you get to the DAC.
@erik_squires … already alluded to a key point: Let’s not forget that until the digital signal gets to the DAC to be decoded into analogue, you have no music or the “noises” yet.
IN BRIEF:
As I moved up the digital play system quality premium build and performance ladder (…and incremental ka-Ching $$$$ …) for my digital player/streamer and my stablemate DAC (emphasis added,,,,) , the less and less I even thought about this narrative and it’s obvious warts.
IN DETAIL
Buying crazy priced “Audiophile” Network Switches
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/ ... i%20router.
" ... No, I have not, nor will I ever. Having been a network technician for over 30 years I know that a network switch’s job is to faithfully receive packets and transmit them to their intended target. If it doesn’t do that it will be replaced as defective. Implying that these devices can color audio signals is patently ridiculous, but I knew at some point some one would try it and some one would buy it...."
Buying Crazy price “Audiophile” Ethernet source
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/ ... t=ethernet
" ...Well, I just tried using a wifi repeater and noticed no improvement (or degradation) of sound quality. ... "
BUYING UPGRADED NETWORK CABLES : REVIEW: What causes audible differences in network cables
https://alpha-audio.net/review/wat-zorg ... erkkabels/
Intro
We round off our little investigation into network cables with a listening test and a clear conclusion. As promised we subjected the network plugs to a listening test and listened to three different configurations: shielding fixed on one side, shielding fixed on two sides and double shielded (and both sides connected). Do we hear differences? Well…. yes…!
Let’s clear up one myth: there is NO audible difference in network plugs. There is a difference in build quality, price and ease of installation. In short: it does make sense to invest in a good plug.
But let’s continue with the sound reproduction: as you know, we have installed everything from standard plugs to expensive Telegärtners. We tried all cables on the same switch (with an IFI power supply) and listened to the same system:
We did not notice any difference between the connectors. Sometimes we thought we heard something (think of a louder or sharper S-sound), but when we went back to the other connector, there was no difference. It is sometimes very complex to listen to this properly and to judge it honestly. But after hours of switching back and forth, we dare say that there is no difference in reproduction. In any case, we do not dare to take a bet in a blind test…
But where we do hear immediate differences – and continue to hear differences even when going back and forth – is the method of shielding.
We made three cables for this purpose: one cable with DeLock plugs and shielding fixed at one end. One cable with Delock plugs with the shielding fixed at both ends and finally the double shielded version with the nice sleeve. Also with the shielding on both sides (and Delock plugs).
What we observe almost immediately is that the version with the shielding fixed on both sides focuses better. The version with shielding on one side seems to play a bit larger, but that is not true: the effects in the song Perfect Life by Steven wilson are placed at the same spot in the room, but are more tightly framed with the cable where the shielding is fixed on both sides.
With voices, the same is true: it’s tighter in focus and also more stable between the speakers (if we move our heads back and forth, the voice stays in place better very odd).
Going to the double shielding we make another step. Again a bit more tightly focused, again a bit better framed. And with that a bit more calmness in the reproduction allowing details to surface a bit easier.
Clearly F us it is clear where the differences come from: shielding, shielding, shielding.
(1) REVIEW:What causes audible differences in network cables
https://alpha-audio.net/review/wat-zorg ... erkkabels/
Intro
We round off our little investigation into network cables with a listening test and a clear conclusion. As promised we subjected the network plugs to a listening test and listened to three different configurations: shielding fixed on one side, shielding fixed on two sides and double shielded (and both sides connected). Do we hear differences? Well…. yes…!
Let’s clear up one myth: there is NO audible difference in network plugs. There is a difference in build quality, price and ease of installation. In short: it does make sense to invest in a good plug.
But let’s continue with the sound reproduction: as you know, we have installed everything from standard plugs to expensive Telegärtners. We tried all cables on the same switch (with an IFI power supply) and listened to the same system:
We did not notice any difference between the connectors. Sometimes we thought we heard something (think of a louder or sharper S-sound), but when we went back to the other connector, there was no difference. It is sometimes very complex to listen to this properly and to judge it honestly. But after hours of switching back and forth, we dare say that there is no difference in reproduction. In any case, we do not dare to take a bet in a blind test…
But where we do hear immediate differences – and continue to hear differences even when going back and forth – is the method of shielding.
We made three cables for this purpose: one cable with DeLock plugs and shielding fixed at one end. One cable with Delock plugs with the shielding fixed at both ends and finally the double shielded version with the nice sleeve. Also with the shielding on both sides (and Delock plugs).
What we observe almost immediately is that the version with the shielding fixed on both sides focuses better. The version with shielding on one side seems to play a bit larger, but that is not true: the effects in the song Perfect Life by Steven wilson are placed at the same spot in the room, but are more tightly framed with the cable where the shielding is fixed on both sides.
With voices, the same is true: it’s tighter in focus and also more stable between the speakers (if we move our heads back and forth, the voice stays in place better very odd).
Going to the double shielding we make another step. Again a bit more tightly focused, again a bit better framed. And with that a bit more calmness in the reproduction allowing details to surface a bit easier.
Clearly for us it is clear where the differences come from: shielding, shielding, shielding.
And that is quite logical if you consider that a network cable is included in a digital chain. A chain that relies on clean energy to keep everything clocked tight. A chain that works with noise-levels of -140dB. A chain where small deviations are immediately audible in staging, focus and smoothness.
This also explains why fiber networks work so well as a first upgrade: you immediately shut out a lot of misery by creating a barrier through which electrical energy cannot pass. And thus no electrical noise (common mode in particular).
To conclude…
Can you hear differences between network cables? Yes… definitely. Our samples have shown that. And about the real cables you can buy at the store… pay particular attention to what the manufacturer has done in terms of shielding. We would still leave the unshielded versions. Especially after this experience. But anyway: try it yourself at home!
And that is quite logical if you consider that a network cable is included in a digital chain. A chain that relies on clean energy to keep everything clocked tight. A chain that works with noise-levels of -140dB. A chain where small deviations are immediately audible in staging, focus and smoothness.
This also explains why fiber networks work so well as a first upgrade: you immediately shut out a lot of misery by creating a barrier through which electrical energy cannot pass. And thus no electrical noise (common mode in particular).
To conclude…
Can you hear differences between network cables? Yes… definitely. Our samples have shown that. And about the real cables you can buy at the store… pay particular attention to what the manufacturer has done in terms of shielding. We would still leave the unshielded versions. Especially after this experience. But anyway: try it yourself at home!
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And that is quite logical if you consider that a network cable is included in a digital chain. A chain that relies on clean energy to keep everything clocked tight. A chain that works with noise-levels of -140dB. A chain where small deviations are immediately audible in staging, focus and smoothness.
No DACs can do -140db noise floor, and if they could there is not a person who could hear it .
What we observe almost immediately is that the version with the shielding fixed on both sides focuses better. The version with shielding on one side seems to play a bit larger, but that is not true: the effects in the song Perfect Life by Steven wilson are placed at the same spot in the room, but are more tightly framed with the cable where the shielding is fixed on both sides.
So shockingly low levels of noise caused things to "play a bit larger", or are "more tightly framed" ... and better when both ends are connected to shield. If this person had the first clue how our hearing works, or the electronics they are working with, they would realize how silly this is. Grounding the shield at both end is to reduce EMI susceptibility primarily in noisy commercial environments with high speed transfer. However, if you are doing analog electronics, it is great way to create a ground loop. BRILLIANT! Let's take the fully isolated nature of Ethernet and introduce the potential for a ground loop then call it better?
p.s. The indicated pretty clearly I thought that every test was sighted. Given their lack of knowledge of how things work, they had already prepped themselves for the answer.
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@akg_ca - I agree this can force one 'down the rabbit hole', but that is the reason for my original post, to get people to go down it, and explain their reasoning. Also, your idea that there's no 'noise' before the DAC, is wrong. We're not talking of musical noise here, but noise genereated by the device itself, the switch eg.
The link you've supplied from the network engineer, is, basically, irrelevant, as he's talking of data transmission and it's integrity along the way, which is not the issue here. He also doesn't seem to understand the issue we're talking about. He says that it's ridiculous to suggest that this can colour the audio signals - THAT statement proves he's not on the same page as most on here, as no-one is talking of audio signals being coloured in a switch or ethernaet cable. nIt's the JITTER that's produced which is the issue, I believe.
Do you realise that your post has several duplications within it?
I agree with what cindyment is saying, I'm afraid akg, although we're not talking of analogue electronics here. Everything in this post is iin the digital domaine
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Whether the digital Data is sourced from USB or ethernet the clock for the DAC is the couple from the data source. There is no evidence that the incoming data connection causes jitter on the output. That would be very very difficult to occur on ethernet and while theoretically possible due to electrical noise on USB there is little evidence that actually happens. For USB isolators are relatively inexpensive. The noise generated internally in the DAC is going to exceed external noise generally by a significant amount. The edge speeds in modern logic are quick meaning that small amounts of noise generate insignificant amounts of jitter.
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@cindyment - It's not jitter on the output of the DAC I'm wondering about, it's on the input, along with electrical noise, which is/may be created by the ethernet links - switch/cables/PS.
USB 'isolators', not inexpensive IMO, as they vary, in rip off terms, from £50 to £250, and have been proven, with in depth measurments, to do absolutely nothing to anything passing through them. Legalised stealing is my opinion of them, as are 'special' mains input fuses.
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There's been a lot of discussion in this thread, but little in a way of answering why people spend so so much on the equipment mentioned, when a cheap USB stick plugged into your device gives as good, or better SQ.
Forget your NAS (for music), forget your PC (for music), expensive Audiophle PC or not, forget your expensive switch and associated expensive LPS's to power each of those things, and not forgetting to forget your expensive ethernet cable. You can dispense with ALL that noise/jitter creating expensive hardware and just spend c£10 on a USB stick - job done. There, I've just saved you (and me) £1000>£10,000. No-one has said anything to convice me, or suggest otherwise.
I believe this thread is finished now.
Thanks for all your contributions and opinions.
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