Remember that to sit closer to your speakers will increase the volume.
Is a Power Amp the Answer?
Hi Everyone…
I want to adjust my stereo system to sound extremely clear, virtually distortion-free, strong across all frequencies and loud, without having to turn the volume on my integrated receiver to 70. (More than that, distortion starts becoming apparent.) Plus, I’d like it to be louder, but I loose audiophile sound quality at louder levels with my current line-up.
I’m thinking that adding a power amp and hooking it up to my integrated amp might be the answer. I’ve never done this, don’t know how, and need your guys’ and gals’ input, please.
My current equipment:
Rotel RA-1570 integrated amp. 120/watts/channel; 80 db S/N ratio, phono stage, 100 db S/N ratio, Digital and LL. http://www.rotel.com/product/ra-1570
GoldenEar Triton Five loudspeakers. 90 db efficiency, 8 ohms, recommended amplification, 15-400 wpc. https://www.goldenear.com/products/triton-series?gktab=3
(Also, for the record, Oppo BDP-105, Pioneer PL-550 turntable with Denon DL-110 cartridge, and V-LPS phono stage.)
Three questions, please:
Are my Rotel integrated amp and GoldenEar Triton Fives properly matched, in the sense of this: am I maximizing the features of both products, given their respective specifications. (I don’t know; I don’t understand this part of putting together a system whose synergies are maximized.)
I think I can use the Rotel as a preamp and match a 300-watt power amp to it to sound extremely clear, virtually distortion-free, strong across all frequencies and loud, without having to turn the volume on my integrated receiver to 70.
If the answer to question 2 is “yes,” what 300-watt power amp would any of you suggest up to $2,000. (I looked at the reviews of the Emotiva XPA Gen3, but my it was priced at only $800. Of course, as an American, I’m thinking something must be wrong, since all the other power amps in that wattage class are significantly more expensive. Am I right, or is the Emotiva audiophile class?) https://emotiva.com/products/amplifiers/xpa-gen3
Thank you, everyone. Any thoughts are greatly appreciated. So happy to be a part of this group.
Mark
27 responses Add your response
I would consider making adjustments to the speaker and listener positions. If the speakers are to close to the back or side walls they will probably distort quickly. If you have room move them from the back and side walls and you can move you listening position in a little bit closer to the speakers. No upgrades required it it sounds better. |
More questions, Mark, can you tell us how you connect the Oppo 105 to the Rotel? Are you using the analog output from the 105 to one of the line input of the Rotel, or using the digital connection from the Oppo to Rotel? When you say you can't turn up the volume over 70 without distortion, is it only using the Oppo or turntable or both? If you turn up the volume over 70, can you listen closely to check if the distorted sound come from any one of the speaker driver or radiator? |
My listening room is actually pretty small...10 feet deep by 12 feet wide. When I sit on my couch in the sweet spot, I am about 5 feet from the middle point of the speakers, which are about 8 feet apart. I wish I could send you a picture of my listening room. Thank you. I look forward to your response. Mark |
Not crazy about GoldenEar subs, and then for any sub you are stuck with crossover issue to free speakers and amp of lowest bass at high volume. How about selling/trading your Triton Five for Three or Two models with powered subs built in? Or, I have heard big Rotel amp make little B&W CM-1 speakers sound like big towers. If you like Rotel sound, look for used RB 1090. Emotiva amps sound pretty good, dual Monoblocks could get a lot out of the Triton Fives. Can you listen to Tritons Fives in showroom with really big amp to see if it gets you to volume and clarity levels you are looking for? |
It looks like the Forcefield 3 accepts speaker level inputs and has a speaker level high pass output. You can easily set up two subs by using the speaker level inputs. I note that the high pass for the mains and low pass for the sub use different slopes (6db/octave and 12db/octave, respectively) and the frequency of former is fixed (150hz--kinda high, imho, even for 6db/octave) and the latter is adjustable. The upshot is that you're going to need dealer help to get the integration right in your room. This is the sort of thing my dealer would come over and do with a mic and a realtime analyzer but, if you insist on DIY, I'd probably start with the sub low passed at 150hz and gradually reduce the sub crossover frequency until you perceive an even balance at your listening position. You'll need test tones from low bass up to mid-bass, and then double check with recordings of acoustic bass (or the like) that you're familiar with. And of course, figuring out where to put the subs is a science all its own! Another reason why a good dealer is invaluable. |
You're welcome. My point is that once you get this big issue solved (i.e., being able to play your system at the volume you want), you are going to start focusing on smaller issues. Those issues will lead you on a quest toward better amps, sources, cables, speakers, etc etc etc. It's the way this hobby progresses for most people and not an attack on your system. :) |
Thank you cedargrover. I don't understand your last paragraph . Are you saying purchasing one or two GoldenEar Forcefield 3 subs (which I am now highly considering, after reading all of these posts...but I don't know if the Rotel will let me connect 2 subs vs. one) will solve my initial problem, but then cause other issues? Thank you. |
It isn't your power amp, it is that you're asking too much from a pair of 6 inch drivers doing bass and midrange duty. You need subs. I suggest a pair of Vandersteens, but if you are brand loyal I'm sure Triton makes one. Your dealer will let you bring one home to test out. With your towers high passed and the sub active, you will get the bigger sound you're looking for. You would benefit from from a better amp, but that isn't going to solve the problem that you're complaining about. It will, however, solve the problems you notice after you get these issues straightened out. Enjoy! |
hi Mark, Do not select an amplifier based on wattage ratings, at least not without knowing the associated headroom (+/ X db) at varying impedance loads, or any specs for that matter possibly excepting peak current (amperes) rating and how it responds to your speakers impedance load, not just nominal, but across the entire range. Better to listen to (reliable) users/dealers that have used and can unbiasedly recommend amplifier models that work and sound best with your speakers, or better yet, an in-home audition. Arnis Balgaris, October 1988, Stereophile Classe’ DR-9 Amplifier review: "A bare specification of "100wpc into 8 ohms" says almost nothing, at best giving an idea of a starting point."..."For starters, it will double its power output whenever the impedance is halved, down to a 2-ohm limit." And my all time favorite: Anthony Cordesman, TAS, Classe’ DR-9 Amplifier review: "Put it this way: If you can learn anything from technical tests of wattage output and IM and harmonic distortion in a high-powered transistor amplifier, it is because you are buying a piece of garbage." Nothing further to add. Best to you Mark, Dave |
If you are considering an amplifier, one thing to look for is amplifier gain. Amplifiers have a signal gain in the 26-32db range. The Emotiva XPA-1 gain is 29 db, which is decently in the middle. I know some of the Wyred 4 Sound amps have a gain as much as 30.7db. If you get an amp with a high gain, the Rotel preamp does not have to work as hard to push a higher voltage signal - this can help keep the signal distortion lower. If you consider a sub, the important thing to make sure is that you strip out all the low frequencies from your main GoldenEar speakers. If you’re just adding a sub to help with bass and not removing the bass signals from the main speakers, it will do nothing to help your high volume distortion because the amp is still pushing a full-range signal. You can either apply a passive crossover on the GoldenEar speaker wire (which is not really the best solution), or you can use some sort of active crossover to ensure the Rotel amp is not driving a full-range signal. You can use the "pre-out/main-in" processor loop connections on the lower part of your Rotel. The "main-in" inputs go straight to the internal amp. If you can’t find a good active crossover or you don’t want to run long lengths of RCA cable back and forth from your subwoofer, you can try using a pro-audio crossover, like a Rane AC22 or AC22B (lot’s of pro audio crossovers on ebay for less than $400 -- Rane, dbx, etc.). You’ll have to get some RCA-to-XLR or RCA-to-TRS cables to use this option. |
When you say, "Plus, I’d like it to be louder" Would that be a little louder or significantly louder? If you’re wanting more than a little more volume, it will be best to use a more efficient speaker. As previously said, doubling power will give you the capability of a 3db increase in volume. Using a speaker with a 96db sensitivity would give you a 6db increase with your current amp. To achieve a 6db increase with your current speaker would require 480 watts and that is not a sensible amp/speaker match. |
Just putting my thoughts in at the last minute. I know you were looking at Emotiva stuff. I’m actually a pretty good fan of Emotiva amps. I started with an XPA-1 and now am running all XPR-1 and XPA-1L (for surrounds). Emotiva is a different model where there is no middle-man markup. There are better amps out there, but for what you are spending, Emotiva delivers a LOT and it is very difficult to find something equal without having to spend a whole lot more. Keep in mind that the Gen 3 is a different beast (it uses the XPR amp boards, but it also has a switching power supply). I have not heard the Gen 3 amps. You might try stretching your budget to get a couple XPA-1 monoblocks. They are on sale now for $1019 each. You do have a 30 day return policy on these. I get the feeling you like playing music very loud. On the XPA-1, you can also run them in Class A mode (which will help with midrange body and help reduce any brightness/harshness). Getting a 600watt monoblock doesn’t mean you use all 600 watts. It means you have a huge power supply to ensure there is no drop in current or distortion in the signal. It also helps with strong bass response. The Rotel should sound clean because it will have more power supply current available since it’s not using the internal amplifier at all. I’m not sure that the Parasound Halo integrated would help much with your volumes levels, since the power supply is not really any larger. The Parasound will sound much better than the Rotel at lower volumes, but would not really be what you need for the louder volumes. In my system, I can get my B&W 805 bookshelves to really pound with my massive XPR-1 amps - they are only one 6.5" woofer in each speaker. The amp does make a difference. A sub could also help, but there are challenges with using a sub as well. |
Those 6" drivers had its limitations, you need a outboard crossover or a sub-woofer with speaker level in/out (like the http://www.crutchfield.com/S-G4VccyGdddm/p_735PSUB1KB/Definitive-Technology-ProSub-1000.html) to cutoff the low frequency (50-60Hz) to make the speakers can go louder without distorted. |
This is a little more than your price range, but a Parasound Halo integrated amp will make your Triton 5 speakers sing. I run mine with the Triton 2 and it is truly a match made in heaven. The Halo integrated comes up used here once in a while. I got mine new from a somewhat local dealer after a little haggling for 2,200.00. |
By any chance do you have the tone controls in the Rotel set such that they are boosting the bass significantly? If so you would in effect be dramatically reducing the power capability of your amplifier, as the boosted bass notes would require much more amplifier power than a given perceived overall volume level would otherwise require. If you have been doing that, try the system with "tone bypass" activated in the Rotel. Also, just to be sure something simple isn’t being overlooked, are you certain that + and - have been connected properly between the amp and the speakers? If + and - are interchanged on one speaker (but not both), bass would be weakened, and imaging, tonality, and distortion performance would be severely compromised. Also, having to turn up the volume control to relatively high settings within its range is something that is very commonly encountered, especially with phono sources, and is not in itself a problem. It’s only a problem if distortion or excessive noise occurs at desired listening levels. Finally, I would be dubious that the speakers in question could handle say 200 or 300 watts without generating significant distortion themselves. An amplifier power recommendation of 15 to 400 watts does not by any means necessarily indicate that all of even most of those 400 watts can or should be utilized by the particular speaker. Good luck. Regards, -- Al |
You can run a sub from the pre out jacks on the upper left. To run a power amp you would disconnect the main in/pre out jumpers at bottom right and left and route those pre out signal to the inputs of a power amp. Whether it would be much better is a different question. With approx 2x the power you would only get 3 dB more volume. |
I don't know (or think) the Rotel RA-1570 allows for the hooking up of a subwoofer to it, and I don't know how to determine if it does or not. Would you mind checking, please? Here's the link to the amp's spec page: http://www.rotel.com/product/ra-1570 Thank you so very much. Mark |
