I must confess I'm more than a little disappointed we haven't seen or heard much in the way of substantive follow-up, lately, on this question from Mr. Fremer, WAM Engineering, Wally Tools, Onzow, DS Audio or whomever. Seems all the audiophile gods have been silent for a while, now.
I contacted Mobile Fidelity a few days ago to see what they might recommend with regard to stylus cleaning and, also, to see if they had any thoughts about the Onzow Zerodust or gel cleaners, in general. They've never failed to respond, yet. When (or if) I get a response, I'll share. In the meantime, here is my experience with regard to using the Onzow:
I haven't been using the Onzow for very long. Only records I've ultrasonically cleaned, first (even new ones), have been played on my relatively new TT & cartridge. I use the Onzow before and after every side. All my records are in anti-static poly sleeves and have been very well cared for and stored since I bought them. All the records I've played have been treated with LAST record preservative. I use an AudioQuest carbon fiber anti-static brush before & after every play. For what it's worth, I also use a Michell record clamp. One change I'm going to make, now, is to use the AQ brush BEFORE I use the Onzow and immediately after, right before play, instead of using the Onzow, first, and brush, second, right before play. Probably obsessive overkill but what the heck! Doesn't really take that much time.
When I use the Onzow, I do not free-hand it (i.e. raise it to the stylus by hand). I set in on a little block, on the plinth, at the proper height, so I can use the TT's cueing lever to lower the stylus onto and off of the Onzow's gel pad. I do this 2 or 3 times, moving the block & Onzow around just a little each time to give the stylus a clean landing spot each time. When I first started using the Onzow, I didn't notice any deposits on the gel pad at all and wondered if my records and stylus were really that clean. However, lately, I've noticed ever so tiny little black spots or specks, here & there, on the Onzow gel pad. I'm assuming this means the Onzow is doing what it's supposed to do. Is it getting everything? I've used the magnifying cover of the Onzow box and, also, a very small hand-held stylus microscope I have to examine the stylus. However, both of these are extremely limited and don't really give as good a view of the stylus as I'd like. I just might invest in a jeweler's loop or something better. From what little I have been able to see, the stylus looks relatively clean. I can't really say with any degree of certainty what the black spots on the Onzow gel pad really are. My assumption has always been that it's probably whatever dust & crap the Onzow picks up from whatever the stylus picks up in the grooves. My non-scientist's assumption has always been that these tiny black specks are probably PVC shavings from the records, dust and whatever other crap hides in those grooves. LAST treatment or not, considering you've got a highly polished diamond doing a complicated dance in those tiny little PVC grooves, the friction and heat going on in there has to be wearing away some amount of PVC. Anyway, that's what my non-scientist's mind without an electron microscope has always thought.
As for continuing to use my Onzow or going to a liquid cleaner, dry stylus brush, stylus brush with distilled water, ultrasonic stylus cleaner, combination thereof, etc, etc, etc,, I haven't decided, yet. There are SO MANY opinions on this! It would be nice to see a showdown review or several showdown reviews on this with a healthy amount of scientific acumen applied, including, of course, electron microscope shots. However, I doubt this will ever happen. Something like that would put some people & products out of business. Then again, there are some minds impervious to science who would just go on using whatever they firmly believe in, anyway. So, I don't see the harm. Might even be a good marketing investment.
I've used a stylus brush and liquid cleaner in the past and would really, really hate to go back to that! Music Direct has said, in the past, that they use the Onzow and, occasionally, Mofi LP#9 for stylus cleaning. Don't know if they are still using that approach. I'm not sure if Mofi LP#9 is a non-solvent cleaner, per se. Fremer says he subscribes to the use of non-solvent cleaners and uses Audio Intelligent stylus cleaner, an enzymatic formula. Aren't enzymes just another solvent? If memory serves correctly, I believe LAST stylus cleaner is also a non-solvent formulation. I'm sure there are probably other non-solvent type liquid stylus cleaners and all sorts of other concoctions out there, as well. As for the Onzow gel breaking down over time, I can't remember where I read this; might have been reviews, but I do recall reading that this gel is supposed to last a very, very long time; virtually forever, even after cleaning (by running warmed distilled water over it). Nothing lasts forever! And then, of course, there's Magic Eraser, BlueTack, etc., etc.
What's a poor confused vinyl head audiophile to do?
In the end, I suspect we may very well learn that many, if not all, of the different reputable stylus cleaning approaches are effective; just different. Either that, or we will all be left to our own devices and this will prove to do be much ado about nothing, like many things in audiophilia nervosa.
Here's some news or, rather, pseudo-news from someone who claims to be the New Zealand DS Audio Distributor, on behalf of someone named Aki who is... the creator of the DS Audio gel stylus cleaner? Not terribly clear! This was posted recently as a comment under the follow-up article in Analog Planet:
"Hi Stephen here from Soul to Sole Audio.... I am the New Zealand DS Audio Distributor and Aki has been made aware of the comments, regarding his ST-50 Stylus Cleaning Pads, that have been dragged into this conversation about Zerodust.
Here is the info he has posted:
"DS Audio designed and manufactures our ST-50 stylus cleaner for numerous good reasons. Before developing the ST-50, many people used a liquid-type cleaning brush with resulting problems such as compromising stylus adhesive and oxidation of metal parts. There were instances of customers damaging the stylus/cantilever using a small brush for the cleaning or impacting the cartridge suspension by brushing incorrectly.
This is why we developed the ST-50 pad-type stylus cleaner. It is mechanically safer and there is no chemical fluid that may damage the cartridge. The shape of the pad and its low profile allows you to cue down the stylus gently on the pad with no cantilever contact.
We specifically chose a lab grade of urethane gel that is ether based. The two basic formulations of urethane, ester and ether, have some important differences. Water attacks ester-based urethane, causing a significant reduction in physical properties. Ether urethanes exhibit far superior hydrolytic stability (water not reacting with another chemical), especially in humid environments. Ether-based materials also resist fungus growth better than ester-based materials."
Don't know how you folks feel about this comment but, to me, as a non-chemist consumer audiophile, this is nothing but obfuscation. This comment is like that scene in "Peanuts" where Lucy pulls away the football right as Charlie Brown is about to kick it. Misses the point entirely! Stating that the DS Audio gel cleaner is "mechanically safer" is reassuring but I think most of us who bought a gel type stylus cleaner figured that out before we bought one. Indeed, I think that's why most of us bought one in the first place! We still need or would like to know what the deposit or deposits on the styli are. No news from the Wally Tools Lab on this in a week and nothing of any substance on this from Mr. Fremer in longer than that. If Mr. Fremer isn't closely following up with Wally Tools Lab/WAM Engineering's J.R. Boisclair on this, I will consider this extremely irresponsible! If these folks end up leaving us all swinging in the wind on this one, it will be tantamount to starting a fight in a bar and, then, cowardly slinking out the back door!
My biggest questions to MF, which have NOT been answered, is regardless of whether the Onzow leaves a deposit on the stylus ( which IMO has NOT been absolutely proven yet) is a) is the stylus deposit in any way detrimental to the stylus life, and b) does it impact the SQ? These may be difficult questions to answer, but I would think that if the answer was yes to either question, that would have been determined years ago by the numerous users of the Onzow.
Insofar as a deposit has mass, it cannot help but affect SQ, I would think, by adding mass to the moving mass of the stylus/cantilever. It is unlikely to have no effect. The deposit can also affect how the stylus tip sits in the groove or alter the normal stylus contact patches. Not good either.
Yeah, I was thinking maybe it could affect SQ via added tip mass. And since rigidity is key in this part of the assembly to accurately transmit vibrations, any compliant/damping goop on there could slightly "muddy" the transmission. But beyond that, the pics mostly seem to show the accumulated goop on the stylus shank, not the actual contact lines of the tip (the cantilever crap looks more like a total failure to clean up there). Maybe the tip is actually "clean enough" as far as groove contact goes? But the question on stylus life is a good one.
Either way, a good cleaning regimen would keep all bits - tip, shank, and cantilever shiny clean like new, which must result in the best playback performance. Don’t ONLY use the Onzow or DS Audio pads.
OK, boys & girls, here's the response I received yesterday from Mobile Fidelity Sound Lab:
"We still recommend the classic – LP#9 Stylus Cleaner with an appropriate stylus brush. While we definitely understand the anxiety that comes with having to make any contact on a nice stylus, as long as you are brushing the tip lightly from back to front a couple times there is no risk of damaging the stylus. You have to consider that the tonearm itself puts as much or more pressure on the stylus with daily use – they are definitely fragile, but as long as you are following the proper cleaning technique there is nothing to fear!
I personally don’t have much experience using any of the “gel in a tiny tin” cleaners so I can’t speak much as to their effectiveness compared to a cleaner and brush, but if you are worried about damage from using those then I firmly believe the “if it aint broke, don’t fix it” mantra applies here. Hope this clarifies, let us know if you still had any other questions!
Customer Service
Mobile Fidelity Sound Lab"
Kind of assumed they would recommend their LP#9 which, BTW, the Music Direct website states is "both a stylus cleaner and a stylus preservative". It's not clear, to me, what "preservative" really means in this case (e.g. putting or leaving behind some sort of chemical coating on the stylus or just the inference that a clean stylus helps preserve or prolong its useful life). Can't imagine it would be the former because the Music Direct website also states it "contains a Mil Spec IPA (Isopropyl alcohol)".
I don't blame MoFi for not wanting to wade into this one. A very reserved and measured response, with a sales pitch too, lol!
He's right though, in pointing out that too many audiophiles are too skittish about applying proper brushing. And in comparing that to the (usually greater) forces it encounters during normal playback. Again, watch a stylus slam into the 1st music groove after being dropped in the outer lead groove of a spinning 12" 45 RPM.
For what it's worth, even though I will absolutely hate going back to using a stylus brush, with or without cleaning fluid, distilled water, purified water, alien Elixer or whatever, I'm now doing some research on liquid stylus cleaners. I asked Music Direct what "both a stylus cleaner and a stylus preservative" meant with regard to Mobile Fidelity's LP#9 liquid cleaner. They responded by saying this solution does not leave behind any kind of coating on the stylus. So, apparently, the mention of "preservative" alludes to the fact that a clean stylus will last longer. LAST Stylus Cleaner basically advertises the same effect but, unlike LP#9, they say their solution does not contain alcohol. They also say their solution removes the most stubborn crud. Mobile Fidelity and The Last Factory are two authoritative sources I have the utmost respect for. I was going to add Michael Fremer to that list, too, because of his support for Audio Intelligent Stylus Cleaner. However, after this latest half *** stunt of his in Analog Planet, he's gone down a couple notches in my pantheon of trusted sources, if you know what I mean.
Yep, if I take anything from this saga, it's that a liquid stylus cleaner is good to have in the toolkit. I'm not intending to use it daily or weekly - but maybe every once in a while, and definitely to clear up accumulation on previously used styli - I think it's a good idea to have on hand. I just ordered some Last cleaner. Heck I ordered some Stylast too, though I'm not sure yet which cartridge I want to try it on.
I have a 47 year history in the chemical business, much of which has been involved in polymer chemistry. I have years of formulating and specifying both epoxy and polyurethane coatings, adhesives, sealants & elastomers, aka CASE chemistry. I am now retired.
The Onzow product is very likely to be a elastomeric polyether polyurethane. There would be no need for a fugitive plasticizer in this product as the urethane can be formulated as soft as the Onzow is. Unlike PVC used to produce records that does have a plasticizer. Polyurethanes are reactive 2 component chemistry consisting of the reaction between a Polyol (multifunctional alcohol, think -OH)and as stated it would be a polyether polyol. This is reacted with an aliphatic isocyanate to form the clear water-white polyurethane. This reaction is Not Reversible. The formula would also likely be over indexed with the Isocyanate. Any excess isocyanate not crosslinkied with the polyol would be further reacted with atmospheric moisture, water is H-OH, so it has the -OH available to react. Therefore, there is no fugitive material available to “gum” up the stylus/cantilever. Now the vinyl records do have additives than can be fugitive that could gum up the works. Without chemical analysis we do know what the deposits are. That needs to be determined before jumping to any conclusions.
In regards to using wet cleaning of styli using alcohol or other solvent based solutions this should not negatively affect the epoxy adhesive used to bond the Diamond to the cantilever. Especially if using the recommended drop of solution. Even direct full immersion would take days, weeks and possibly months to have any deleterious effect and even then removing from immersion it could recover. A correctly formulated epoxy adhesive is resistant to solvents except for the most aggressive types like methyl chloride. No manufacture would use this aggressive of a solvent in a stylus cleaner.
I am currently an Onzow user. I have not noticed any deterioration in sound quality since beginning to use it about 1 year ago. I don't have access to a high resolution microscope to inspect my stylus to see what might be there.
I don't have a dog in the fight, but my chemical curiosity has me wondering what is happening. I await further investigative results to determine what is really going on.
@rickd1225, God Bless You for your expertise on this!
I have no idea what all the technical polymer chemistry stuff means but, like you, I've been using the Onzow Zerodust stylus cleaner for a while, now, with no unsavory effects I can discern. No problems with sound quality and nothing of any concern I can see on the stylus. However, the magnification I've been using to observe the stylus is pretty pedestrian. I also agree that Mr. Fremer, WAM Engineering/Wally Tools and J.R. Boisclair have gone off half-cocked on this. Strictly based upon what has been reported, thus far, however, I have to say, regrettably, that the brunt of responsibility, here, rest squarely on Mr. Fremer's shoulders. WAM/Wally Tools/J.R. Boisclair are simply reporting on what they're seeing, thus far, and what the styli owners have, it would seem, reported to them, regarding these styli deposits. It wouldn't surprise me, at all, if Onzow Labo, DS Audio and maybe some other manufacturers of some of these gel-type cleaners consider litigation if their sales are negatively affected by this half *** reporting. It would behoove Mr. Fremer to do everything within his power to get to the bottom of what these deposits really are and where they are really coming from and do it FAST!
Also having no dog in this fight, I will continue using Onzow.
As many have pointed out, there is nothing wrong with occasional brushing & flossing so to speak. Occasional use of a compact brush as supplied by Ortofon/Benz/Lyra/MoFi/Disc Doctor etc as an addition to regular correct use of the aforementioned gel is highly advisable. Gentle lossy brushing of the cantilever could also be considered from time to time.
I agree that hard clear substances can build up on styli. I have seen it and cleaned it. Not rocket science but it does require great magnification and a steady hand (along with support of the cantilever using MacGyver inspired well placed removable scotch tape with the unsticky back side supporting the top of the cantilever). Clear buildup is indicative of cleaning “treatment” fluid whereas brown gunk would relate to wet record playing trash which is typically not as tough to remove.
The clear crust I’ve removed via an exacto knife (Metal blade) & plastic pick were determined, by user/owner query, to be stylus treatments over applied and built up over time. The brown gunk, removed with just the plastic pick, was one of my pickups grunged up after trying to relive my youth using a wet Discwasher record brush - turns out they don’t effectively dry after moistening the brush’s leading edge!
In spite of a potential warranty claim reported for a mistracking cartridge, I completely fail to see how such a soft cleaning gel can cause audible damage despite referenced “deposit” photos.
Just my $0.02 worth . . . Let’s go buy more records!
Ha Ha, I remember the old poster size sheet printed with green ink that used to come with Rega turntables contained the following line "any dust that accumulates on the stylus can be easily blown off". I never went for ultra expensive cartridges, but could see this item being of particular concern to anyone who now will be anxious that their $Xk cartridge is somehow compromised. There is one thing, did anyone using said product notice anything horribly wrong prior to Fremer's post?
Depending on who you listen to there is something potentially wrong with nearly any of them (liquid ones, magic eraser, blutak, onzow).
Has anyone looked into or considered nano tape? I’ve put some on glass, and can’t detect any reissue after pulling it off. But it’s so strong it’s a bit scary.
We at Onzow Labo extend our sincere gratitude for your continued support and interest in our ONZOW Zerodust Stylus Tip Cleaner. Recent discussions, fueled by claims published on Analog Planet, have prompted us to reaffirm the safety and efficacy of our product when used according to the provided guidelines.
In response to these concerns, we have curated a comprehensive resource that is available on our website.
We invite you to review this information and share it with other discerning vinyl enthusiasts who, like us, are committed to preserving and experiencing the true essence of recorded music.
Thank you for your invaluable role within our community and for your unwavering commitment to the art of vinyl. Should you have any questions or require further clarification, please do not hesitate to reach out.
Thank you. Would you consider allowing a third party to conduct the same tests to remove any concerns about bias in the results? WAM Engineering might, for example, publish their photomicrographs that they used to determine no residue was left on the stylus. Mr Boisclair enjoys a high degree of respect in the community and this would surely end debate once and for all.
We also wanted to share third-party test results with our customers, and that’s why we created this webpage.
At the end of the page, you’ll find the results from Yokohama City, which represent an official third-party inspection. Since the report is in Japanese, translating it ourselves would no longer be an official document, so we have left it in its original language.
We hope this helps provide a clearer understanding. Here is the link to the page.
You must have a verified phone number and physical address in order to post in the Audiogon Forums. Please return to Audiogon.com and complete this step. If you have any questions please contact Support.
