mapman, if i can be so bold I suggest you get a hold of some of those Spock Vulcan ear prosthetics. i suspect you probably need them.
have a nice day. đ
have a nice day. đ
142 responses Add your response
georgelofi Ralph, I tried to find the photo they had which seemed reasonable, but didnât look really hard. But the way they explained it in the pics was that normal OFC copper is just round copper molecules all touching and bunched like tiny marbles in a tube, (surface touching area between molecules is minimal) Uh, the "cube" with copper atoms is a crystal lattice. They are not copper molecules although I did enjoy reading that.đŹ have a nice day |
If youâve ever wondered about the arrows on AudioQuest cables, read any of our educational materials, or merely followed any of the online chatter regarding our products, perhaps youâve wondered what this âdirectionalityâ thing is all about. Maybe youâve even made the incorrect assumption that itâs the analog or digital signal thatâs directional. sorry my last post truncated the first paragraph of Audioquest's article on directionality... carry on. |
"A difference that makes no difference is no difference" -famous Vulcan proverb Is this one of those? Iâm sure there is someone out there who hears a difference when crystals oriented one way as opposed to another. Can it horror of horrors perhaps even be measured? Make sure contacts are similarly good either way or else its all for naught. Enquiring minds want to know. |
I donât dispute that but such does not suggest directionality.They thought it did Ralph, I tried to find the photo they had which seemed reasonable, but didnât look really hard. But the way they explained it in the pics was that normal OFC copper is just round copper molecules all touching and bunched like tiny marbles in a tube, (surface touching area between molecules is minimal) Where as LC-OFC copper is crystals of copper arrow/rocket shaped each oneâs head fitting into the one in fronts tail, yes like male female, each crystal is male and female. A bit like this >>>>>>>>>>>> So thereâs far better contact area that molecules, (surface touching area between crystals is maximized) And the directionality??, is yes the way the head of the crystal points, which could also be a bit of a wank. Audio Technica started this, I believe Hitachi and Panasonic/Technics also maybe rebadged and sold it as well in the 80âs But like I said very fragile cable bend it just a little too much and you break that contact area between the crystals, each time causing resistance till the break goes all the way acoss and takes out all the cystals then is open circuit baby. Cheers George |
OK, time to stop messing around and pull in the big guns. what follows is what Mr. Low owner of Audioquest Cables says about wire directionality. our products, perhaps youâve wondered what this âdirectionalityâ thing is all about. Maybe youâve even made the incorrect assumption that itâs the analog or digital signal thatâs directional. There is the widely accepted version of directionality: In most audio-grade shielded interconnects, as compared to standard coax, negative has its own internal conductor and the metal shield is attached to ground at only one end, thus defining the cableâs directionality. Many cable manufacturers end their exploration of directionality there, going only as far as to mark their cables for directionality based on the relationship of shield to ground, but altogether neglecting conductor directionality. Because we believe in directing noise to where it can do the least harm, we, too, believe in the advantages of controlling for the attachment of the shield. In fact, long before we controlled for conductor directionality, AudioQuest interconnects were also controlled for direction based on the relationship of shield to ground. The definitive empirical evidence of directionality demands seeking a scientific explanation. What is the technical explanation for directionality? Over the years, our understanding of conductor directionality and its effect on audio performance has steadily evolved, growing stronger and more complete. While weâve always been keenly aware that directionality plays a significant role in the overall sound of any hi-fi system, we couldnât completely explain it. This was okay: We trust our own ears and encourage listeners to do the same. The test is easy enough: Simply listen, then reverse the direction of the cable, and listen again. In one direction, music will sound relatively flat and a little grainy, as though being forced through a screen door. In the opposite direction, the obstruction is removed and music will be communicated with a natural ease, depth, and an open invitation to pleasure. When presented with a cable whose conductors have been controlled for the correct low-noise directionality, a listener feels a sense of comfort and relief: AhhâŚMusic! geoff kait machina dynamica |
Now to get very basic. For my single ended interconnects that do not have directional arrows I just hook them up without thinking about directionality. Is there a way determine if the shield is connected at one end versus at both ends? If the shield is connected at both ends, does directionality cease to matter? Does a shield need to be connected at all? Thanks, George |
Crystal orientation in OFC and in Ohno Continuous Casting manufacturing predicts that there is directionality in metals that may influence the sound quality.I don't dispute that but such does not suggest directionality. Every cables have directions. The signal behaves differently with wire directions. One direction is cleaner, natural, and more focus than another direction. I test it and use it every day. Every audio companies should know this fact.Directions, yes, but this is not influenced by the **wire** somehow conducting better in one direction than another, its caused by the way the cable is constructed- and this only applies to certain single-ended cables which might have the shield connection at one end only. Even then, its not the cable that sounds different, it would be caused by the equipment (amps and preamp) reacting to the change in the noise floor. Some equipment is better grounded than others and this will lead to cable qualities manifesting in different ways in different systems. |
georgelofi "There was only one wire developed years ago 80âs for audio that I believe was directional. That was Linear Crystal Oxygen Free (LC-OFC) speaker wire from Audio Technica, it was heated up to such a degree it crystalized when it was drawn." Getting back down to reality for just a second there waso actually only ONE wire that was NON-DIRECTIONAL - the CARBON wire, Van den Hulâs metal-free The First. The reason carbon wire, i.e., non metal wire, is non-directional is because it is amorphous, whereas ALL metal conductors are by their very nature crystal structures, All metals are crystal structures, and in their free state the crystal structure is symmetrical. but when metal is bent, rolled, hammered or drawn the symmetrical crystal structure of the material is deformed. In reality, a single crystal wire would actually minimize or eliminate the "directionality" from occuring since itâs the *deformation* of the symmetrical crystal structure that causes the directionality in the first place. Van den Hul also produced single crystal wire; I owned single crystal tonearm wire way back when. geoff kait machina dynamica no goats no glory |
| Post removed |
There was only one wire developed years ago 80âs for audio that I believe was directional. That was Linear Crystal Oxygen Free (LC-OFC) speaker wire from Audio Technica, it was heated up to such a degree it crystalized when it was drawn. The only problem with it, it could not be bent much at all, otherwise the cystalized copper broke and then created resistance gaps between the crystal gaps. it was like glass, if this happened it became worthy of the bin. I still have some here, sounds like crap because of being abused too much. http://coregar.c.blog.so-net.ne.jp/_images/blog/_a8b/coregar/LC-OFC_SP.jpg?c=a0 http://auctions.c.yimg.jp/images.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/image/ra115/users/4/5/8/9/aloha7_99-img600x495-1468317494bwpckk2375.jpg Cheers George |
GS5556 says: To state that wire has "directionality" is to toss aside the laws of quantum physics. First. the conductivity is proportional to current density and electric field, irrespective of the physical dimensions of the conductor. Second, the net drift velocity of the electrons is zero. If one direction in the material favored the other, there would be a net change in velocity in that direction and every wire would have an electric charge. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I personally was talking about micro changes or differences in how transients are expressed (when a dynamic force is applied, to a lattice arrangement like many of the wires we use in audio) depending on polarity. ie delta and polarity. Complex harmonics, which music is ...and wide band, through the ânativeâ skin effect range, all this complicates the matter but exacerbates the âtransient interferenceâ issue. Physics has no laws, just theory and exploration. Engineers have laws and dogma. Quantum physics is especially devoid of laws, it not being anywhere close to being defined. As for polarity, or a one way, itâs just been done with light. Whodâa thunk it. http://phys.org/news/2016-11-one-way-street.html |
A few people do listen to a piece of wire from a spool, installed backwards and forwards, and then mark the spool for the direction which sounds the best. This wire on a spool is an air core inductor!!!!!, and not a straight piece of wire thatâs "supposed" to be directional, take the wire off the spool so itâs straight and see which way sounds best? This needs to be on geoffkait's website. WHAT VOODOO!!! Cheers George |
to make things even more confusing, consider the following. First, the audio signal is not the electrons. The audio signal canât be the electrons because the audio signal moves too fast, near light speed in wire, whereas electrons only move very very slowly in wire - a meter per hour. Second, the electrons cannot travel at light speed under any circumstances or anywhere near light speed because of their mass, such as it is. Their mass prevents them from ever approaching light speed. In fact, we know there is actually only ONE thing that can travel at light speed (in a vacuum) and near light speed in metal conductors and itâs the VERY THING that the audio signal, the electromagnetic wave, comprises. But if itâs not electrons. what is it?! |
To state that wire has "directionality" is to toss aside the laws of quantum physics. First. the conductivity is proportional to current density and electric field, irrespective of the physical dimensions of the conductor. Second, the net drift velocity of the electrons is zero. If one direction in the material favored the other, there would be a net change in velocity in that direction and every wire would have an electric charge. Energy transfer through the wire is by electric and magnetic fields, which move electrons to higher velocity or energy states. Electrons do not move from one end to the other, as water through a pipe, instead electrons are bound in a Fermi surface, which represents the energy state and momentum of the electron. When an electric field is applied, it "shifts" the Fermi surface away from the field and displaces electrons only on the surface of the field, accelerates those electrons on the displaced side to a higher velocity state and scatters electrons on the other side. Photons, lattice vibrations and impurities slow down the scattered electrons and cause resistance. This creates the space charge that propagates the applied electric field along the wire, and transfers electrical energy. If you were to look at one point of the wire in an AC field, the Fermi surface distorts back and forth along that point, and not electrons flowing by like water. Again, the Fermi surface is not an actual surface but a representation of electron momentum. To say a wire has direction, you have to accept that a) the Fermi surface is not equally displaced by the same magnitude E field from both directions, and b) the scattered electrons on the other side see less (or more) lattice vibration and impurities for some reason. So, why the arrows on cables? Mine have them because MIT placed network boxes on the wire and the direction of the signal is impacted by the passive devices of those networks -- which is audible if installed backwards. But putting arrows on plain wire is just decoration. |
georgelofi said: Yes differences in dielectric, the way the different insulated conductors are wound/twisted together. But not in the direction of the copper wire itself, as was stated!! George what proof do you have of your claim the wire cannot be directional? Any actual experimentation building speaker wires or ICs? Quote: In Reply to: Re: maybe rcrump... I donât know, but... posted by Greg R. on September 29, 2000 at 19:47:48:
Solid core wire is extremely directional so just mark the end with some masking tape as it comes off the spool. Orient the wires so you have piece of masking tape at either end and terminate the wires. Throw it on a MOBIE or whatever overnight and then listen to it noting which way gives the highest image height. This is the correct orientation.http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/m.mpl?forum=cables&n=12372&highlight=rcrump+wire+direction . |
The audio signal energy travels in one direction in the form of an electromagnetic wave from the source to the load. If you accept this theory wire directionality can be better understood. It also explains how the type of dielectric used in ICs and speaker cables can have an impact on how the cable sounds in an audio system. Can people hear differences in cables? Use the AC theory of the signal traveling back and forth to explain how, why, cables sound different. Read: "Ralf Morrison's website has some comments on electromagnetic laws." https://books.google.com/books?id=9tsbThJYMh0C&pg=PA5&lpg=PA5&dq=moving+electrical+energ... |
atmasphere @jea48 so-- if the electrons flow easier one way then the other (a reasonable interpretation of the first paragraph), what happens? Do they not all make it back on the return cycle. to which atmasphere replied, "Obviously the answer is âNo.â, as an excess of electrons would occur at the receiving end, which would mean that there would be a negative DC voltage generated. Since that doesnât happen, we can assume with a great degree of accuracy that the electrons are in fact flowing either way with equal ease." In any case electrons - unlike the audio signal - are not flowing very rapidly. The velocity of electons in copper wire is what, about a meter an hour? Then atmasphere continued, "Interconnect cables are not diodes. The reason they might be directional has to do with how the shield is arranged. Usually you want the shield grounded at the source only. While its not as good as balanced operation for low noise, its better than just a regular shield with single conductor inside." That's only part-true. The wire itself is directional so even cables without shields are obviously directional. Did my previous post fall on deaf ears? Hel-loo! Finally atmasphere said, "So I think we can consider the quote from herman to be debunked." Or not. |
@jea48 so-- if the electrons flow easier one way then the other (a reasonable interpretation of the first paragraph), what happens? Do they not all make it back on the return cycle? Obviously the answer is âNo.â, as an excess of electrons would occur at the receiving end, which would mean that there would be a negative DC voltage generated. Since that doesnât happen, we can assume with a great degree of accuracy that the electrons are in fact flowing either way with equal ease. Interconnect cables are not diodes. The reason they might be directional has to do with how the shield is arranged. Usually you want the shield grounded at the source only. While its not as good as balanced operation for low noise, its better than just a regular shield with single conductor inside. So I think we can consider the quote from herman to be debunked. |
Arrows on all other kinds of cables -- XLR, speaker, power, and data -- are utterly meaningless from an electrical standpoint, since audio signals (and wall voltage) are alternating current and interact with conductors the same way in either direction. I'm only sure it is useless for XLR cables, since you can plug them only in one direction. |
I'm curious as to why some interconnects are directional? Is there a physical internal difference and do they generally sound better and cost more than non-directional cables? Thanks for your interest.My view on it and the way I always make them up on RCA's leads with 2 x internal conductors and a shield, the shield is only used as an RF trap and only connected at one end, (not used as the signal return). In this case the end that the shield IS connected to the ground wire should be at the least sensitive, being the poweramp not the source, as to dump the RF it catches to ground of least sensitive part of the chain, being the poweramp, not the preamp or the source. Cheers George   |
How do you square this with the cable carrying an AC signal? // https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/directional-cables herman                                            1,909 posts           05-17-2010 3:57pm
This explanation, while common, ignores the fact that we are transferring energy in one direction. The oversimplified view that we have electrons flowing in one direction and then they all flow back the other direction so it all balances out works for some very simple electronic models but falls apart when trying to use it to explain transmission lines (cables). Iâm not arguing that a perfectly symmetrical cable is directional, only that the explanation used is not applicable to what is really happening. [End of quote.] . |
The lattice structure of solidus wire, ie, electron orbital locked frozen crystalline wire, it can and mostly will be directional, depending on the method of creation. The same goes for the dielectric. Flicker, Johnson, and shot noise all play their part -itâs quite the stew, and a polarized one at that. Almost all dielectrics in use are mildly thermoplastic in nature, and will exhibit polarization when extruded: http://l7.alamy.com/zooms/14fd7ed4543a437e93aefcb66482ae59/plastic-measuring-cylinder-illuminated-by... This will organize the fields in play, when under high rates of change or in transients. When looking at the âpolarizedâ image supplied above, imagine a more polarized, organized and aligned structure exuded around the wire. Add in that to the electrical fields in modulation that are interacting with the wire, the polarizing effect is again in the wire (due to itâs manufacture and fundamentals in bulk lattice of elements-like wire), even though it is not transparent to light and we canât use a polarization filter to see it. So the wire and the dielectric each independently act predominantly with opposite field characteristics, one current (wire) and the other voltage (dielectric). One can even find resonance patterns at a given frequency or delta. The pairing makes for a very âacâ responsive activity when the âcableâ (metal wire and dielectric skin) is hit with the varied changes of flow and value we call âsignalâ (delta). Since it predominantly interacts with the peak transients and we hear via transient function (delta), this activity and interaction of the cable with the signal -is heard by humans. The only cable in the world that escapes this basic consideration, is the liquid metal Teo audio cables. The interaction of signal and conductor, in the liquid metal cables, is more akin to how light interacts with a fluid or gas. More of a free form plasma effect and interaction. For the first time ever in audio, itâs a completely different beast. Itâs a change in the basic analysis and equations in use. In the fluid metal, which is fluid at the molecular level, there is no polarization possible, in the classic sense of how all solids function in their enforced polarized interactions with electrical fields. The result is electrical considerations which beggar belief. Most cables are manufactured with these directional issues taken into account, as the effect is on record as being heard. Not that many folks articulate the issue of lattice alignment and polarization, and not that many who hear it in audio cables understand the issue of polarization..and precious little science is put into the area of trying to see how much a person can hear of such things. When we add in the differences in human hearing in individuals, then add in intelligence, cognition, and data gaps, we get this argumentative stew that might be called âthe cable warsâ. |
What may be a little confusing is that not all RCA cables are balanced + shield, but are in XLR. In other words, the better RCA cables have two identical conductors, except the insulator color, typically red and black. One goes to the center pin, the other to the outer ring. In addition to these there is actually a third conductor, not identical. Best are an impossibly thin foil shield, which is in contact throughout it's length to a drain wire. The shield is impossible to solder to, so we use that drain. So, red and black connect at both ends. The drain however only at source. Cheaper RCA cables use 1 wire, plus a braid. The central wire goes from pin to pin and braid does double duty as signal and noise. There are minor tradoffs as the shield adds capacitance while preventing noise, but it's usually well worth it. Best, Erik |
The problem is that wire is directional. All wire, wire in fuses, wire in interconnects, speaker cables, internal wiring in electronics and speakers, the wire in capacitors. That's why interconnects that are not shielded sometimes have arrow, you know like Anti Cables and others. So, here's the real problem, those cables and interconnects that are shielded and have arrows to indictate the direction the cable should be connected because of the shield may or may not consider the direction of the wire itself. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out the wire in shielded cable should also be considered when marking the cables for direction with arrows. The sound would suffer somewhat if the wire itself was in the wrong direction even shield was in the right direction. |
I'm just guessing here, but I imagine it also may have something to do with the magnetic fields which are created anytime current moves (right hand rule) down a conductor. Â I imagine that the geometry of the conductors are used to manipulate this in some way that they feel impacts the signal the least. Then again it could be pure snake oil, but I doubt it. |
| Post removed |
Yes, with a RCA cable, the shield may be connected to ground at one end (at source). An arrow or markings will indicate the proper direction. I have read that George Cardas winds the copper strands in a particular way that makes the signal flow directional. Meaning that the cable sounds better in this direction. But I was taught that in theory, wire is not directional. |
No good technical reason since audio is AC - except some cables may be shielded with the shield connected only at one end to ground. The end connected to ground goes to the amplifier which should be grounded at the mains. The idea of not connected both ends to ground is to avoid ground loops but it makes the shield more like an antenna and more susceptible to RF. |
