Installing Dedicated Power Lines -- Need Advice

@millercarbon I'm interested in the Decware unit. I agree it will probably be a good value. He says one thing I need help with, though.

Decware: "Some people will wonder how this approach compares to a power re-generator so it pays to know that a power re-generator is a large power amplifier. It simply plays a 50/60 cycle note (sine wave) instead of music. It is, nevertheless, an amplifier whose performance is affected by incoming power quality just like anything else therefor it would make sense to plug a power re-generator in the Zen Line Conditioner."

My understanding was that if one buy a regenerator, they're done. That thing takes whatever power is in the wall and by regenerating power in a clean way, also cleans it up. That's what I take the P.S. Audio products to be claiming. Did I miss something? If one goes the regenerator route, do they also need a conditioner? 

A ground loop is nothing more than the current has different paths to ground. This always happens, because even on one circuit there are lots of things plugged in. What you want to avoid is different electrical potentials. As long as they are all the same, or very close to the same, then no problem. 

This is why often times people are able to get away with running off more than one line. You could run a separate dedicated line to every component, each with its own conditioner (or not) and have no problem as long as they all have equal ground potential. Where the hum and noise comes in is when it is different. How different? When will it be a problem? Only way of knowing, do it and find out. So these things are more good housekeeping or good practice than guarantees.  

The one good thing about a dealer is you can bring the thing home and try it. Only problem, I have heard enough of these things to guarantee just about any of them will sound to you like a big improvement. It is only after going to the trouble of comparing a bunch of them that you will be able to figure out if one is better than another for the money. Do that enough times and then you are able to look at something like the Decware and go, yeah totally worth it. But you kind of have to go through it.   

Look at the neverending amplifier thread to see just how endless that kind of thing can be. 

Don't know what the JPS Power wire costs, or what your budget is. But I can tell you this. Look at my system. Read the details. Notice I am not recommending you use cryogenically treated wire, 240V step down, etc, etc. Why is that? Because it doesn't work? 

No. It totally works. But I have learned over the years there are lots of things that are way more bang for your buck. If it was me now (and I was paying electricians and having to follow code like you are) I would use ordinary 10 gauge, Synergistic Orange outlet, and spend the rest on HFT, ECT, PHT, Orange Fuses, Townshend Pods and Podiums, F1, stuff like that.  

The day you stick an Orange Fuse in your amp, or put it on Pods, or put your speakers on Podiums, or put HFT on your speakers, you will know what I'm talking about.

Thanks very much Millercarbon for your thoughtful and detailed response.  I now understand I'll have both outlets on one circuit.  One clarification-- does plugging in different components to different outlets on the same circuit create ground loops or just plugging into two different circuits? 

Point taken on plugging the amp into the power conditioner and thanks for the Decware suggestion.  My dealer who sold me the Line Magnetic amp also carries Shindo and is suggesting I get a Shindo Mr. T.  It is, as you suggested, a bit more than twice the price of the Decware.  I will take my time with the conditioner and power cable part of this since I'll be plugging into a really new system with new speakers in the new apartment and want to wait until I'm in the new place before making any decisions.

Since the walls (hopefully) will only be open once, I am considering wiring the whole audio circuit with JPS Power AC In-Wall 10 gauge wire.  

Whart, thanks for your suggestions.  Since we are gutting the entire apartment, permits have been pulled for everything, plus landmarks approval, etc.  Expediting this project has been no small feat! I'm confident our GC will only use a good electrician.  We are in a prewar building in Manhattan, so downside is the same creaky electric infrastructure you had in Brooklyn, but upside is buried cables not particularly susceptible to surge and outages.

Depending on where you live, the applicable code will indicate whether you need a permit. I chose to use a commercial electrician to do the work, based on positive experience with that electrician doing other work here. @Jea48 is very knowledgeable on code-related issues (nationally, he may defer to the local code and those who know it) but a lot of it is also good practices-- most electricians in my experience are not necessarily specialists in audio and may regard some of what is taken from the chat boards as nonsense; in other cases-- and I found this to be true in the current house, using the commercial electrician-- he was pretty much totally onboard with the various suggestions. I had them install a whole house surge protector on the main service panel, run a feed to a sub panel that delivered 60 amps, which in turn feeds a 10kVA iso transformer that sits in a large weatherproof NEMA case about the size of refrigerator/freezer cut in half. (You can see it on my system page here). The output of that transformer runs from 4 gauge feeder to a sub panel adjacent to my listening room- dedicated lines are pulled from that interior sub panel-- 10 gauge, running to hospital grade Hubbells sourced from Albert Porter (unplated contacts, brass strap, no fancy cover plate, I think they were nylon in bulk).
I had a chance to listen to the system for a while without the iso transformer, which was still in the process of being put together in Michigan, so a junction box was used to connect the two parts of the circuit where the isolation transformer was eventually installed.
My immediate impression was that the system sounded a little bright, but it also had not been fully dialed in; I had moved from NY metro to Texas, new room, new challenges. The system with the iso transformer is quiet, I think the overall infrastructure here is newer and in better condition than that I had in NY (notwithstanding the power outage here recently due to the extreme cold).
My loudspeakers (Avantgarde Duos) are extremely sensitive at 104 db/meter, so you can hear electrical gremlins if there are any anomalies. Inter-component grounding issues, tube noise, etc. are all pretty hard to ignore. My goal was to reduce the overall noise floor to increase the amount of musical information I could hear at low levels. That also meant reducing the amount of ambient noise in the room. I do not like heavily treated rooms which sound "dead" so I used a minimal amount of treatment (bass traps, some multilayer treatment on the front wall window) and a large Persian rug that more than fills the room. The house itself is quite old, made of shiplap that has petrified in the Texas heat and is harder than hell.
I’ve been through a number of dedicated rooms over the years, starting with a brownstone in Brooklyn Heights, then a few houses in the lower Hudson Valley before my move to Texas. Each time I learned something.
I would ask the electrician what he plans-- some don’t necessarily want to work with the heavier gauge wire, may not be as concerned with spacing between the lines (which may also be a code issue, I dunno) and get some input here before he starts. Usually contractors work with the same subs but if you aren’t confident in the electrician that your general contractor wants to use, it’s gonna be on you to find someone better. Frankly, my best experience has consistently been with commercial electricians- they are used to working with heavy duty stuff, whether it is lighting or sound, they seem better equipped than some of the residential electricians I’ve encountered over the years.

2. I've already purchased two Furutech GTXD-NCF duplexes with matching NCF covers and GTX Wall Plates. Does each duplex need its own breaker to isolate from the other?

No. And you only need one outlet.  

Let me expand on that. Ideally you only need one outlet for one condititioner, everything plugs into that. This minimizes ground loop issues to pretty much zero. It is nice to have one free outlet to plug whatever into. Lamp, whatever. Main thing is you want everything that is a connected together part of the system to all be plugged into just the one circuit. If you can get a conditioner with enough outlets to do that, fine. If you have something like a lot of subs to plug in, those are less particular with power they can plug straight into the wall, but they still are part of the system and must be on the same circuit to avoid ground loop noise. Keep this one simple principle in mind it will avoid an awful lot of grief. 

My architect says our main panel is getting crowded and is urging me to limit to two breakers for the audio rig.

First, you only need one breaker for the whole system. Second, if you do need to add breakers and no space get a thin twin. These are two breakers designed to take up half the space of a normal one. Take one of your non-critical circuits like a bathroom/bedroom and swap the two breakers to one thin twin. Then use the free space to do the room. 

3. I will be purchasing some kind of power conditioner/distributor.  Can digital be plugged into the same conditioner as analog?

Yes.  

5. Would I plug my tube integrated directly into the outlet or can it go to a power conditioner?

Either way. As long as you do as above, no problem. If your conditioner is any good however then it will sound a whole lot better plugged into the conditioner. Any time you hear anything like this conditioner is good for this but not that, run, this is what we call a crappy conditioner. The good ones are good for everything, period. Right now Decware has one, that I haven't heard but looks to be very good indeed. https://www.decware.com/newsite/ZLC.html   Keep in mind that since this is sold direct, like all Decware, you would at least double the price to find anything comparable at retail. 

6. If I buy speakers that each have an onboard Class D amp for subwoofers that need to be plugged in, can they be on the same circuit as the power amp?

Yes. They should be. See above. 

I'm considering getting two single outlets closer to the speakers to avoid a long power cable run to each of them.

I would avoid this. Use passive subs like I do powered by a Dayton SA1000 for all the bass anyone could ever want and run ordinary cheap 14ga wire off a reel.

Lastly, did your electrician know this stuff and advise you or did you have to educate yourself completely?

 
Electrician? We don't need no steenking electrician! This whole system, everything you see and a whole lot more, is all me. It ain't rocket surgery you know.

I’d run 2 lines since you have the way cleared for an easy run. Its easily done now that the place has been gutted. After the drywall goes up, its a different story. I Have one dedicated line now but wonder what the result might be if digital and analog were separated. Maybe the Power conditioner will work for the same. Maybe not. it may be overkill. But I was a builder for 50 yrs and would rather overbuild than under build. And it will be MUCH cheaper NOW. Besides, you never have too many outlets do you?

FWIW, I have a balanced power conditioner which doesn't like my TV. So it is not plugged in the PC. Some don't like their amps plugged into PC. IF you ever get mono blocks you will need the 2nd circuit. Just a thought.

Thanks very much for the responses.  Miller, your system looks mighty fine and you've obviously put a lot of thought into your power needs.  I'd love to pick your brain further.

1.  Will definitely advise the electrician to use 10ga if he hasn't already specced it.
2.  I've already purchased two Furutech GTXD-NCF duplexes with matching NCF covers and GTX Wall Plates.  Does each duplex need its own breaker to isolate from the other?  My architect says our main panel is getting crowded and is urging me to limit to two breakers for the audio rig.
3. I will be purchasing some kind of power conditioner/distributor.  Can digital be plugged into the same conditioner as analog?
5. Would I plug my tube integrated directly into the outlet or can it go to a power conditioner?
6. If I buy speakers that each have an onboard Class D amp for subwoofers that need to be plugged in, can they be on the same circuit as the power amp?  I'm considering getting two single outlets closer to the speakers to avoid a long power cable run to each of them.

Lastly, did your electrician know this stuff and advise you or did you have to educate yourself completely?  

Thanks!

- what Miller Carbon said. 👍

Standard outlets are if such low quality and unsuitable for any device that works with frequencies.

What you want is one line that runs direct from the panel to your system outlet in the room. Use the largest gauge wire you can, which with an electrician means 10ga on a 20A line. Buy a Synergistic Research Orange outlet for him to install in place of the usual crap.

You can go way beyond that of course, the key word being "you". https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367 This is the room of a guy who has done it all, knows what it costs, and what sound quality you get for the money. This is the voice of experience.