@ghdprentice Thanks for that post, which really made me think. One thing irritating to me is the concept of audio engineers deciding for me what I want to hear. It's one thing to be sitting in your home with different parts of the keyboard spread across your room and wondering how the thing was miked as opposed to a live venue and be finding the natural sound of a performance not just enlarged, but rather "enhanced" by sonic manipulation. Obviously someone else decided for me what I wanted to hear. With a recording it is, admittedly, something different, although I prefer a simpler two-mike or similar technique. I do like to imagine an actual group playing in front of me, but that's a pretty rare deal nowadays and you just have to ignore what's going on otherwise and focus on the music. Having that happen when the artists are actually playing right in front of you is something else: you're not listening to them, you're listening to the speakers.
Incredible Audiophile Imaging -- at a Concert!
I was just at a music festival in the mountains near the border of Portugal and Spain. One of the shows was the duo of Maria João (vocalist -- either an acquired tasted or too weird, depending on your preferences) and Mário Laginha (an excellent pianist). The concert was outdoors in the ruins of the ancient Roman city of Ammaia. The sound system consisted of two line arrays, nothing more. But it was incredibly well mic'ed. A pic with the techs setting up is attached. We were seated very close to the sound boards.
About two songs into the concert, I realized that Laginha's piano was mic'ed so that an image of the keyboard, in incredible detail, was mapped from the left line array to the right. Closing my eyes, I could "see" this entire 70 foot wide keyboard image, to a level of detail that any musician who knows keys and scales could easily reconstruct exactly what Laginha was playing. It was absolutely amazing! I had never heard sound with that level of clarity, detail, and imaging in a concert before. The purpose-built San Francisco Jazz Center probably comes close in my experience, but a somewhat distant second place to this simple line array system.
I'm sure this effect was helped by there being no walls or ceiling to create any reflections. And I'm sure being right next to the sound engineers contributed. Did the altitude or cold temperatures matter? Regardless, it made Laginha's playing that much more enjoyable. It was such a treat compared to concerts held at stadium venues, or even large clubs, where the sound often sucks.
I read up on line arrays at https://www.soundonsound.com/techniques/line-arrays-explained to get a better appreciation.
Wondering if any other 'goners have experienced something like this at a concert. If so, what was the venue? What do you think contributed to the stellar imaging?
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Was the piano a real instrument, or an electronic keyboard? If it was a real instrument, most likely the vibrating strings inside it were arranged in a fairly complex pattern, with the low note strings running diagonally under the midrange strings. In other words, the acoustic, unamplified instrument does not arrange for low notes to be on the left Was it a concert grand piano, or an upright? If a concert grand, was the soundboard (lid) closed, open or removed completely? Was there just one microphone for the piano, or two, or a whole array? Most likely the sound engineers electronically panned the piano sound based on frequency. Incredible sound. Unbelievable sound. Indeed, but I for one prefer believable sound |
For years, I worked along side the electric unions that set up sound for a ton of shows. Most of the time, the act sent people to check out the venues and then plan out every inch of cable and every watt. The Rolling Stones put up a really elaborate show in many sports domes and it was amazing how most of them really sounded great! It’s a science! |
So the piano was a grand, possibly a concert grand, opened. It was heavily mic'ed, at least 3 close to the keyboard and 1 or 2 for ambience. My belief is that it was very carefully mixed and panned based on microphones, but not panned based on frequency. It was super clean sounding, and did not have the digital hash which is the hallmark of most DSP systems. Again, this was more of a gestalt thing. You could listen to the sound holistically without hearing this L to R pan effect, but if you focused on the L to R aspect of the keyboard, you got that clearly. My friends did not notice this. Maybe my hearing is just very visual. I only got it when I listened with my eyes closed. I guess I am strange in that, if the sound is clean and deliberate, I am inclined to like the presentation. I assume it's what the artist wanted. Not everything has to sound like Jazz at the Pawnshop to be enjoyed. I do enjoy great imaging, but I can also enjoy a manufactured soundstage as well. I won't refuse to listen to music that does not meet some uncompromising ideal of recording standards. I understand @ghdprentice 's lamentations with DSP messing up the sound at the symphony, and completely sympathize. I hate artificial sound. But when it appears to be what the artist wants, and is very clean (again, telegraphing intent), then I enjoy it as the artist intends... |
What is a shame is that an symphonic orchestra in a good orchestra hall can create sounds at the limit of hearing all the way to well over 100db... crescendos would frequently be louder than I would ever choose to listen... for effect. So the symphony was the place that was natural and amplification was completely unnecessary. Rock concerts, plays, other, sure. |
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