If you had to start all over again in this day and age
So, with the advent of different technology, sources and platforms these days, if you had to build your home stereo system all over again, what would you purchase to listen to music that brings you satisfaction?
How much of what you have would you keep, change or throw all out and start over again?
arro222, I think that the DAC has a much greater effect on the sound than the streamer. If your CD-8 has a digital in you can plug your streamer into it. I think streaming will sound as good as a manufactured cd. The DAC in the Node 2i probably isn’t as good as your CD-8, but it’s not too bad.
Does your DAC only work at 16/44.1 or does it do high-res? Many albums on Tidal or Qobuz are available in high-res and may sound better than a cd, not always the case, but it does happen.
Get started with a Node 2i and I’m pretty sure you’ll be happy with streaming. If you want to try something better later you can move the Node 2i on with minimal loss. I think you’ll enjoy it.
The real benefit of streaming is that you can find so many albums that sound great that you probably never would have heard without streaming. If you like to discover new music or hear music you just never got around to buying, streaming is like being a kid in a candy store, to me anyway. They won’t have everything you want, but they’ll have most of it.
On streaming, tech wise it’s really painless. Of course you need internet access. Ethernet cables access to your modem is best, but some streamers like the Bluesound will also work over WiFi. The three streamer dacs that I currently use are the aforementioned Bluesound in my budget office system, Cambridge 851n in my secondary system and Teac NT-505 in my main system. There are big sound quality performance increases at each of those steps. The Teac is still relatively affordable at $2k and sounds amazing, but it requires Ethernet (no WiFi ). The Bluesound is the easiest to use and has the best user interface app of the three, but it’s dac is wanting IMO. Ymmv
Please excuse my dumbness but this is all new to me. So I need a streamer. I either have to get one with wifi or wired directly to my modem right? Now I attach this streamer to my cd player dac with what type connectives? ("digital in" means hdmi?)
Why does the streamer have to be quality if it seems to be only a conduit? I just saw a streamer with dac for $23,000.
Also, I have to pay a monthly fee to join up with a provider like Apple music? What’s "tidal"?
My word. My questions are like "what spark plugs should I use" Sorry.
A streamer gets your music from your wifi router (modem) to your DAC or you can combine both functions in a streamer/DAC. You can connect to your wifi router wirelessly (wifi) or wired (ethernet cable, i.e. Cat 6, Cat 7, etc.).
Digital inputs and outputs will be labelled as such on the component. There are several types of digital cable that you can use to connect a streamer (digital out) to a DAC (digital in).
If you want to read up on this topic, there are a number of very recent threads about New to Streaming, Newbee Question About Streaming, etc. Just do a search of the forums for Streaming and sort by date.
If you read those and are still puzzled, you’re like me. The easiest way to learn about streaming is to buy a Bluesound Node 2i (a Streamer/DAC with a digital out so you can connect it to a separate DAC, if you want to) for $550 list price. It’s really easy to set up and the BluOs app you use to control the streamer is very user friendly. It will sound good enough for starters and you can get a separate DAC if you want better sound once you decide whether you like streaming or not. Eventually, you can spend as much as you want (or have) for better streaming gear if you feel that’s necessary.
Tidal, Qobuz and Amazon Music are streaming services which cost $15 - $20 a month. I think they all offer a free one month trial so you can decide which one you prefer or if you like streaming at all. I like streaming, other people like physical media. You can do both, using streaming to find music you really like, then buying a physical copy.
Ok, thanks Tom. I'll check the forum out as you advise. Just one more quicky though: Say I stream a song into streamer. Does it get stored in there so I can play it back at any point or do I always have to use a streaming network for play back?
Generally, no, streaming services to the types of streamer dacs we’re talking about here for home 2ch listening always require an internet connection to play the songs. So you do not "own" the songs if that’s what you mean - but so long as you keep your subscription you can play anything from their vast catalog. I think some services do allow download (e.g., to your phone) and play without an internet connection, but your subscription must still be active (once it expires, those songs won’t play). It’s just that most of the types of streamer dacs described above don’t have way to store. (I hope I’m right about this - if I’m wrong someone will correct.)
I like streaming because it gives me access to vast quantities of music, and it curates them by genre. So, for example, I like blues. I listen to a lot of Albert King, Muddy Waters, Keb Mo, Taj Mahal, Luther Allison, Buddy Guy -- all pretty well known artists. But with Tidal, I go to "Tidal Recommends" for blues and I have access to tons of blues artists I’m not familiar with, and I can listen to any of them any time. It leads to infinitely more time spent listening. That’s the best benefit of streaming, IMO. And it’s CD quality or better if you use Tidal/Qobuz and have a decent player. With Hi Res (different services call it different names) you can do better than CD quality. Will it ever better a high-end vinyl setup? Maybe not today. But down the road, who knows. What lots of folks who have hi-end vinyl setups do is use streaming to identify those albums they want to purchase on vinyl.
Not all streaming services are created equal. Spotify has a free version but the quality is low (resolution). Tidal and Qobuz are the two high-quality leaders, and Amazon has become a new contender, but is not supported yet by many players (Bluesound an exception and maybe couple others).
Establishing an account with a streaming service will involve creating an username and password, that you’ll enter once into your streamer initially, and thereafter it’ll find it automatically each time you power on.
Also, not all players (streamers, dacs, or combo units that have both) obviously are created equally. Not all will play at the highest resolutions supported by the streaming services.
Regarding the dac in your cd player, depending on how good it is you may be better off going with a combination dac/streamer. Besides convenience and fewer cables, everything in digital domain runs off clocks and when you have more devices (like streamer and cd dac) involved there is more opportunity for jitter to degrade the sound quality. That said, if your cd dac is decent, it may outperform the dac in the Bluesound node 2i. Dacs/Streamers improve quickly, as in audio terms/timelines this is a pretty fast moving technology (compared to speakers, for example). The dacs 5 years from now will be markedly better than what we have today. That’s a good thing.
Yes, like everything in audio, prices go from low to nosebleed high. You can find dacs costing $100k if you look hard enough.
I would do everything exactly the same. Never regret, never apologize. Acquired 500 records in the 70s which are some of the best I have. Went through all the formats. Back to vinyl but still listen to CDs, digital, streaming. Loved the journey of trying to figure out how to acquire next component and what sound I like, which has changed from decade to decade.
“I'm a chicken to move toward streaming. It took me years to get a cd player. To me an audio system is still about a tt, a player and a good ole single ended.“
I was there not long ago. During this pandemic I wanted a project so I ordered a hifiberry dac plus DSP $70 and a Raspberry Pi 4 $60. Another $10 for a heat sink case, a few bucks to download Volumio, and you are in business. Initially I attempted to build a Squeezebox type of thing with a screen, but realized this was overkill. I took an old iPhone and use it with Volumio app as my front end. So far, the ease of selecting a wide variety of music and HD downloads points towards success. I had some help from kind folks on here to get through the software portion, but if I had just read thoroughly that could have been minimized. It doesn’t have a $400 glitzy case or front panel with pretty lights, but you won’t regret the $140 cash outlay, and the whole unit can hide in a small part of your rack. Don’t over complicate this as I did. Simple is good. If you need help, let me know.
Thanks ovine. Although my knowledge of traditional equipment and its innards and tech has done me and my customers well throughout the years, I know next to nothing of this new digital stuff. I understood "dac" and "case" in your post but I have no clue what a Pi 4 is nor "volumio" or where to download it on.
You know what is really putting me off on this streaming stuff? I can’t own the music. My tastes in music run rather tight. I am NOT an "overall" music lover by any means. "Hip-Hop" or "Rap" will never see the inside of this house ( except for one very hauntingly beautiful rap I heard as a prelude to a Blue Man Group show) as well as Michael Bolton or Barry Manilow or Janis Joplin or Kenny G and God forbid, Alanis Morrisette.
I have bought entire albums for just one song. There are only a few classical reproductions I like. In short, I’m rather "selective" with most of my preference in note structure associated with minor cord grouping.
It makes me wonder if this whole streaming thing is right for a person such as myself as opposed to finding a song, buying it for $1.99, burning it on a cd and playing it on what I consider a very good player.
That's fair - that "ownership" versus "renting" aspect is a hurdle for some. If you're happy enough without the streaming then just keep on with what you're doing. Surely not for everyone.
Wireless streaming of FLAC and Amazon Music HD (which I've already done). There's no difference between streaming and a CD ... except convenience and having a massive library at hand. Bits is bits.
And I would have stopped creeping up the upgraditis speaker ladder and just gone straight to the top of my wishlist. It would have been cheaper.
I took a long time to jump into streaming, but a year or two ago bought a Bluesound Vault 2. For around $1200 it includes a 2 terrabyte hard drive so I can burn cd's as well as stream from Spotify Premium andTidal... BTW, Spotify has improved its bandwidth so while not cd quality it is closer. If I discover music that I want to own I buy the cd's.
I might buy better B&W speakers, but the subs I built using DM16 (Prototype 801) drivers makes me happy with my crystal clear 803's, especially since the subs are powered by my Audire Forte, which the Audio Emporium's online museum stated had, "Gargantuan Bass".
There's no difference between streaming and a CD ... except convenience
and having a massive library at hand. Bits is bits.
That is a silly claim even for those who believe digital is as simple as "bits is bits." There's no way CD can equal the very best hi-res files available from services such as Qobuz.
I have had well over 100 components through the years. Mostly I am circling back to the 1980s. So, if I had to do it all over again, I would probably stuck with what I had in the 1980s and left it alone. Except I would have added some digital source components such as CD player and streamer.
If I had to do it all over again. SInce 1976 I have bought at least 140 separate audio components. And since I am finding I am buying a lot of components that I used to have in the mid 1980s, I would have left things alone for the last 35-40 years with the exception of CD players and streamers. I would have saved a fortune. I have yet to experience any amp/preamp better than the Thresholds I had and now have again. The only component I never replaced and still have is my ENTEC SW-1 subwoofer.
Have two systems that have been continuously evolving over many years. They are “lower to middle third” of high end in price. So upgrading any single component/cable, etc would have almost no impact on SQ. Vinly is better than streaming on both systems. CD and streaming are both excellent - can’t tell them apart. System 1 has tube preamp, tube phono pre, tube dac, and ss amps, and it is in a larger room. System 2 has tube integrated and tube phono pre in a smaller room. Frustrated that there are no obvious upgrades in the offing, but listening to music is sublime. No desire to start over.
Not really. You could stream the audio, then record it in real time using a digital recorder before burning to CD. Of course, that’s not very practical, and would also involve another A/D > D/A step.
Thanks for the topic, arro222 Back in the brick and mortar days, the early questions would be about room, present gear, goals and budget. Your first question is put in such a fashion that none of these are tied down except for the goal of "satisfaction." The second question implies there IS some gear, but without details. My son, 22 is a very passionate, aspiring musician. So far, he has not chased hi end sound, but did complain a few years ago, "Dad, I can' t listen to mp3s any longer." He and some of his peers developed a keen interest in vinyl, so we put together a simple system that has the speed to serve his electronic and ambient music. His source is a Dual 1229 tt w/Shure M97xE cart, a Nakamichi cassette deck for sales that supplement his digital art. Other gear includes a refurbished NAD 3140 integrated amp and a used pair of quick mtm style Model SA 1530 slender floor standing Danish loudspeakers. Toss in some good interconnects and diy speaker cables, record cleaning stuff ... done. This is how I would advise anyone wanting to get into vinyl on a budget. IF you are a seasoned music person, and it's a "ground up" reset, it would be the room first and foremost; good power; educating yourself or getting help with speaker types and their placement, then room treatments. High quality self-powered speakers today can provide a simple, easy solution, then add streaming provisions. Uncluttered, great sound with the least cables and boxes, all easily managed from a tablet or cell.
For non-tech older folks, as with computers, find dependable, savvy help for your specific goals. The performance of entry level modern gear has become incredibly good, and it absolutely surpasses our old tried and true stock vintage gear...by far. In plain English, no matter your budget, due diligence is greatly rewarded. An amazing time for music lovers. More Peace, Pin
order a Raspberry Pi4, either 2gb or 4gb, from any number of resellers. This is a small computer board that is amazingly versatile. $35-$55. Order a dac hat for the raspberry- I bought hifiberry dac plus DSP- approx $65 from Hifiberry. You could also consider one from Allo. Either will plug into the top of the Raspberry board. Get an 8gb micro sd card and burn the Volumio software (download from Volumio) or buy an sd card with Volumio already on it. You can use a power supply from your phone or iPad for the raspberry pi board. Hook the rca output of the Dac board to input of preamp or receiver. Download the volumio app on your pad or cell, stick the volumio loaded card in the pi, power it up, and select the volumio hotspot on your cell ( when you first turn on the raspberry it will be broadcasting a WiFi hotspot). Follow the directions in the app and pick the dac hat you chose- either the hifiberry or Allo- whichever one you end up purchasing. Click on sources and choose Tidal, pandora, Spotify or whatever music source you have and you are enjoying music. $100-$150 depending on dac you choose and any case and you have a first rate streamer. I added a screen and it looks like a squeezebox that was once available. If you want to tackle it let me know and I can assist. Took me a bit to figure out the software part but in retrospect it was my ignorance that was causing the problem. Great having thousands of songs in HD at my fingertips. Best of luck.
I started my in home audio journey back in mid 70s with basic Pioneer and Denon Electronics and BIC speakers; quickly moving up to other electronic ie. Harman/Kardon, Tandberg, Nakamichi and Thorns and speakers ie. Klipch, Mission and Vandersteen. By mid 80s I fell in love with the Quad ESL 63s and even though I experimented with a lot of other speakers over the years, the Quads was my main stay speakers for over 20 years - powering them with PSE, Bryston and Krell. Following my work and moving into a considerably smaller living space, I had to sacrifice my Quads and hopes for getting a pr. of Apogee Duetta Sigs. for something considerably smaller. Now, back in a larger living space with a dedicated audio room, my journey has started over. Following my love for stats and ribbons, I had chance to pick up a pr. of the little Maggie 1.7s and fell in love with their clean open sound. My goal now is to move up to a larger set of Maggies or, If I get the budget a pr. of the Sound Lab 545s or 645s, with an up grade in my CDP and phono cartridge. With hundreds of LPs and CDs, I have no interest in streaming.....Jim
Nice clear diy for streaming on a budget. Saving it for other opportunities to assist others. Thanks. Liked your afterthought! I have great respect for naysayers IF they have done the work and tried things.
"We have nothing to fear...but fear itself...except stupid, we should be batshit fearful of stupid."
Pinthift. I too was a musician being a professional trumpet player. I was a bit younger than your son when going professional. Nothing I’ve heard over the years has equaled what I heard in the 15 piece band but that’s ok. My greatest claim to fame was to sit in when the Fifth Dimension came to town and their player got the stomach bug. I envy your boy in his journey.
That aside, we opened our first audio salon in 1970. We graduated to 3 stores and I left in 2001 and remained a financial principal until 2008 when the last store closed. If I didn’t hear 10,000 combinations, I didn’t hear one. Krell, ARC, Wadia Garrad, Thorens, Jensen (an abomination of speakerdom but state of the art then) on and on.
With all that said, I am a babe in the wood with this digital stuff and amazed at the movement in tech it has wrought.
I am not against anything new but I admit I am a slow mover toward anything "new" partly because I exist in the comfort realms of the past while toe stepping into the future. I had to do that as a store owner. I question everything. I guess because of all the bs spiel I heard as a business owner from vendors, suppliers and audio "critics" from every dimensional plane.
Like a newborn fawn, I do suppose I need to get out in the world to the few remaining stores and listen "all over again".
Thanks pin. I wrestled with buying or building; I can afford the former but enjoy the latter and wasn’t sure streaming was for me. I have well over a 1000 CDs and a top shelf transport and Dac- albeit a dac made for cd output. The RPI opened my eyes to many possibilities and a NAS I just ordered may allow the CDs to be boxed up and stored. I need brain candy and the Raspberry may be just the ticket. BTW.....I haven’t heard batshit since my father passed. Thank you for jogging some memories. ARRO, we are akin in our cautious approach to new tech, but Streaming isn’t going away IMHO. Too many youngsters only know this format and they will be the decision makers of the future.
For my main "audiophile" system, after 5 or 6 years of constant upgrades, for the system I'm "set", won't change a thing...except that we are moving into a home we are having built, with a "bonus room" for my "man cave", so I guess my true answer is that I'm changing the room!
For my wife, in the old house we've had B&W stand mounts driven by a modest Yamaha receiver which shows up as a "speaker" in Spotify. In our new home we'll just have a pair of KEF LS50W wireless powered speakers, no external amplifier, no speaker wires, no furniture to house the system.
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