Buying an amp for your current speakers with plans to replace those speakers is not the best idea. |
Mikirob, speakers will have a greater effect on sound than amplifiers, therefore it makes more sense to start with speakers. |
Make it Cayin, great sound, great value. |
Botit,
Phase angle? Well, a resistor is sort of a pure load. Any energy stored is generally as heat. Voltage and current rise and fall together.
With capacitive or inductive loads, voltage and current do NOT rise and fall together. Tubes typically do not like driving a load which looks too much like a capacitor. Both inductance and capacitance are 'stored' energy = reactance.
There is some math involved, but basically, the angle between voltage and current determines how much power is actually available from the amp TO the load to do actual work. At 90degrees, NO power is available. So, in a high reactivity load you may not get 'advertised' power.
B&W is demanding of an amp because it is reactive at some frequencies.
Look up Power Factor. The Wiki article is simple and has illustrations.
As for impedance, lower also makes more demands on an amp. Speakers are rated at a 'nominal' value, but can vary a LOT from that value. At the more power demanding end of the spectrum, say below 300hz, a large dip in impedance at the same place as a large phase angle will result in large demands on an amp.
Here is link to the power cube way of measuring amplifier performance. Note how some 'poor' amps fall down when asked to drive hi phase angle at low impedance. Even some good amps don't necessarily shine in this test.
http://www.audiograph.se/Downloads/PowerCube_12p_brochure_complete.pdf |
Botit,
I think a tube amp will sound fine but it will not be especially robust because the impedance of the B&W is too low which robs some of the power of the amp, also it may exhibit some of the traditional 'tube' amp characteristics which is big bass and/or rolled off high end.
I do not know the electrical end of it so others might help here. |
and... what is a reasonable amount of power to consider? is 20w/ch enough are tube w/ch different than ss w/ch? |
I think that a tube upgrade would certainly increase the quality of the sound I currently have, the question now is would my existing speakers cause damage to an integrated tube amp? When you say hard on a tube amp what does that mean? Will i need to replace 5000 hour tubes in 20 hours or after 4500 hours?
Once I have the integrated I want/can afford, I will consider speaker replacement provided I wont do damage to the integrated tube amp driving my existing speakers.
Phase angles? Dips? Capacitive angles? What is this you speak of? |
Unsound, what you say is normally correct, but if a person wishes to go the tube route and has incompatible speakers for tubes shouldn't fellow members here tell the potential tube buyer that information? Then he can go find the speakers that he likes that are synergistic with tubes; and by-the-way, many people know for example that they prefer tubes to SS after hearing tubes, but might not understand that their current speakers are not a match made in heaven, so, the reverse of your normally correct theory is reversed. As the old saying goes, " more than one way to skin a cat."
I knew that I wanted SET 300B sound, loved the Cary house sound, bought the amp and went out and found the right speakers to match up with them, not more difficult to do than the other way around. |
Speaker then amp or amp then speaker,'either' method works out . In the end they both have to match, chicken or the egg.I based my system on a move to a SET amplifier and it worked out fabulously, you just have to have a well thought out plan.
Regards, |
I agree completely with unsound, as far as picking a tube
Amp? Once you find the speaker that
You like, find the impedance chart for that
Speaker and look specifically at phase angles.
The dips or capacitive angles are what give tube
Amps a hard time |
I suggest auditioning speakers WITH proposed amps.
Buying speakers for amps OR amps for speakers is the short way to madness.
Buying / auditioning together, especially for people just learning, is best done in a shop with some experienced guidance.
Online? Well, that's much more of a risk, IMO. Unless, of course, some background exists to ease the choice / reduce risk. Others have the 'buy it used and test it' philosophy, thinking they can sell whatever for pretty much what they paid for it.
The online approach is, to me, anyway, for the more experienced or those with deeper pockets.
Un, with much more experience can target into a class or perhaps even a brand of amp which has very high probability of satisfaction.
Overall, I'd say to buy the source first. That'll make run of mill stuff sound better and perhaps even survive a few upgrade cycles. |
With all due respect to some of the other posters, I suggest buying amps for speakers, not speakers for amps. I suggest that one find the speakers one likes, and then buy the appropriate amplification. |
Yes, do change speakers, I'm biased toward the Cary's (own or have owned several different models over the years). You might want to read the chat on Zu vs Tekton Lore. |
B&W is not generally a tube-friendly load.
Crossover? Well, electrically, most B&W are a very reactive load...meaning it looks like a capacitor or inductor to the amp. Large impedance swings aren't fun for tubes, either.
SS is best. |
I've also noted that B&Ws seem to like transistors better. Perhaps this is because of the complex crossovers in most of the B&W models.
Your list of tube amps is a good one, don't think you can go wrong there. Note that these models don't all sound the same though! Another make you might add is Audio Space. They are easily the equal of the Cayins in build quality. |
what is it that makes one speaker sound better on ss and another on tubes? Is this an experience item or are there specs I can look at? |
"for something I think I'll have for a lifetime"
I have told myself this before but it did not happen...
The first thing I thought when I read your post is that the amps may not suit the speakers, being a tube guy myself I would buy one of the amps and get rid of the B&Ws when you can - but that is just me.
good luck and take your time and do a little research in the archives is my advice |
I agree with Mike, B&W's seem to work better with ss. |
Mike makes a good point.I prefer tube amplifiers, BUT be certain your speakers will be 'compatible' or you`ll be disappointed and likely blame the tube amp. |
I'm a dealer for both Rogue and Cary. The Rogue and Cary pieces are each very nice integrateds that are very flexible but certainly have different sonic characteristics b/t the brands.
Do you have any particular questions on them?
As you probably already know, the Cronus Magnum will have an on-board phono stage where as the other 2 will require a phono stage purchase.
Taylor
www.goldprintaudio.com |
Fine choices. Just my $0.02: I used to have B+W 603S3s and while they were great speakers, they did not pair well with tubes in my opinion. They sounded best with solid state equipment. Try to demo one or more of the amps you're looking at with your speakers, if you can.
-Mike |
