No problem at all Chakster. I found it interesting to see that Namiki may be doing this kind of laser mounting on a diamond cantilever.
I understand fully that many do not like to re-cantilever when they retip but as someone who has been very happy with that kind of job done on a number of cartridges (I think there can be a very good opportunity in many cases to actually improve a high quality body/generator with a better cantilever/stylus, notwithstanding the fact that the cartridge will not be "original" and to have an older cartridge that is now "supercharged" so to speak and offers very high value) so I found it interesting that Namiki may be doing this on diamond cantilevers.
Perhaps Zyx is sourcing this type of laser mounted stylus on diamond from Namiki for their new top model? In the future, it may even be available as a top of the line option from retippers perhaps?
In any event, the more information out there, the better for all of us!
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One month later & I'm still enjoying the 4D. Playing with the loading now. 100 was good. 470 opens it up with more air. But its too disperse. IOW, sound stage is without good focus on some albums. Guess I need some resisters to make some loading plugs. 300 will split the difference. 100 & 470 are both good....but not optimum IMO
FWIW, I haven't tried 47k which I ran my LOMC Benz Ebony L at with great success. However Benz is setup to do 47k. From what I have read, Mr Luschadek recommended trying 47K. |
Glad you are still enjoying it! My experience with loading my 4D is similar to yours. I set my Allnic H-3000 at 117 ohms, with 66db of gain, which sounded best to my ears on that particular phono stage. I tried the H-3000 at 278 ohms, but one can only use that setting with 62db of gain. I preferred the 117 ohm, 66db loading option. I am now using the 101-300 ohm setting on my Coincident Statement Phono Stage, which is a fixed 66db gain phono stage.
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Hi artemus,
you should definitively try the 47k as well. That rocks!
But to be honest my 4D was playing most of the time with 320 Ohm. |
Thaluza & racedoc. Thanks for verifying my observations. I haven't played around extensively with the loading. And I only have 100 & 470 ohm plugs at the time. I had more but apparently I sold them with the SUT which I sold several years ago. My Benz loved the 47K loading. So I will try it. Some albums are well suited for the 470 ohm. They hold the sound stage well and have a better air and larger sound stage. However, the 1st album I tried (Boston, "Don't Look Back" 1st pressing) sounded like the music was coming from everywhere on the front wall. The sound stage was huge. But there was no focus. FWIW, that album is recorded well.
I have some RCA plugs. I just need to find the resistors now. Got some of them somewhere too. The problem with being retired is that I have some of most everything yet I have a hard time tracking it down. |
The ZYX 4D internal impedance is 4 ohm and MC cartridges with such a low (or even lower) impedance is not sensitive to loading. How would you all comment this statement?
ZYX own top of the line headamp designed by Nakatsuka-San for his cartridges is 125 ohm (fixed).
Recommendation for loading is just "higher than 100ohms". |
Chakster, I can only tell you what I heard. I was happy with 100 ohm loading. But since the recommendation was higher than 100, I tried the 470. My post above notes my observation |
Chakster:
According to the specifications provided by ZYX, they recommend a load impedance of greater than 100 ohms. Why would ZYX make the recommendation, if in fact as you say the 4D is not sensitive to loading? Hoping you can provide more insight for us uneducated masses. :-)
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@thaluza
well, i can point you on setting of the Nakatsuka-San (ZYX designer) own headamp for his top of the line cartridges. The load impedance on this device is fixed at 125ohm. When a designer build such device for his best cartridges the choosen load impedance (if it's fixed) must be the best match (in his opinion). But users are free to connect MC cartridge even directly to the MM (47k ohm) input, some people like it, and that's why the only limit in the manual is not lower than 100 ohm.
The statement that low impedance ZYX MC carts are not sensitive to loading was posted here by other users too. |
Hhhmmm..
my ZYX R-1000 Airy 3 SL (4 Ohm) was more sensitive to higher
loads. It had a tendency to harshness when loaded with more than
320 Ohm.
My ZYX 4D XH (8 Ohm) was more flexible and played even with
47 kOhm phantastic. |
Chakster - I’m just curious as to why you said loading does not make a difference with the 4D, and with low ouput MC cartridges with low internal impedance in general. I have not read that before, but that is just a reflection that I admit I do not know everything. Not trying to start a beef, I’m just trying to learn and get the best sound out of my 4D. Anyways, I am still not totally convinced. I do find it interesting that Nakatsuka-San chose 125 ohms for his head amp, as I had tried different options for my Allnic phono stage, listened with my ears, and settled on 117 ohms. I was pretty close. I am curious as to why he choose such a specific value of 125 ohms, and not, for example, 400 ohms? Is it possible there is a difference and he thinks that a higher loading value such as 400 ohms would be detrimental to the sound? Or could he have picked 400 ohms because, like you say, it makes no difference? The fact that some audiophiles say that loading does not make a difference is anecdotal. I’m not dogmatic and can be convinced to their point of view, but I would point out that there are many audiophiles, and they seem to be in the majority, who claim to hear a difference with different loading options with their low output MC cartridges (this is of course also anecdotal) . This includes me and many other people here on Audiogon and elsewhere.
Here’s one thing that is troubling me with respect to your opinion that loading does not make a difference with the 4D. A couple of reviewers have written that loading makes a difference when using ZYX Universe cartridges, which if I recall correctly have the same internal impedance and output as the 4D. Myles Astor wrote, " Cartridge loading seemed best between 100 and 180 ohms into Doshi phono stage." Arthur Salvatore uses a Universe and reviewed the phono stage that I am currently using. He wrote: “the CSPS is only meant to be used with low output MC cartridges …. when my initial MC loading was set too low, … the sound was ‘dead’ for a while. Once I raised the setting one and then, later, two clicks up, that ‘problem’ completely disappeared. The lesson here is obvious; always experiment yourself to find the optimum setting.” Food for thought. |
I’m just curious as to why you said loading does not make a difference
with the 4D, and with low ouput MC cartridges with low internal
impedance in general. The reason why has nothing to do with the cartridge directly. It has to do with the stability of the preamp. The inductance of the winding of the cartridge is in parallel with the capacitance of the tone arm cable. This forms a Radio Frequency tuned circuit (also known as a tank circuit). The tank circuit is set into oscillation by the energy produced by the cartridge. It resonates in this case at several MHz and thus produces RFI (Radio Frequency Interference). Some preamps don't like that and don't sound right as a result. The loading resistor detunes the tank circuit enough that it will no longer resonate. Then the preamp sounds fine. If however, the preamp is properly designed and is stable with RFI, then the loading resistor will be found to have no effect. IOW, if you need the loading resistor to make your cartridge sound right, it points to a stability problem in the preamp. You can find this topic discussed elsewhere on this site and others. Jonathan Carr of Lyra and Jim Hagerman have discussed it at length as well as myself. Jim has a good article online: http://www.hagtech.com/loading.html-which goes into the math of it. We did not use any loading on our ZYX- our preamps are stable so there is no need. One additional point- when loading the cartridge, you are making it do work. This stiffens up the cantilever, changing its tracking characteristic- it will be less compliant; that's not a good thing. You are better off with a stable phono preamp. |
Atmasphere -
Thank you! It's making more sense to me now.
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@atmasphere
Thanks for the explanation. I have read about stability of the phono preamp but did not understand what I read. You made it clear. I ran my LOMC Benz without loading. I thought it was due to cartridge design. But IIUC, it indicates a stable phono stage (JLTi). Guess I'll try the 47K.
"One additional point- when loading the cartridge, you are making it do work. This stiffens up the cantilever, changing its tracking characteristic- it will be less compliant;..."
The info above clears up the misconception that loading is for the cartridge. I have never heard this before but I know you are knowledgeable of this. I have previously read that Mr Luschadek (Benz Micro) recommended trying to run the Benz cartridges at 47k. Thus I thought it was due to his cartridge design. But I see now that he was figuring that the customer may have a stable phono stage. I suspect the only way for a layman such as myself to know if it is stable is to try it. Is this correct? |
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@artemus_5 i use the same JLTi phono stage :)
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According to SORAsound, MC's going through step up transformers are sensitive to loading: "Some general comments, pertaining to more than ZYX phono cartridges
obviously. Assuming you’re not using stepup transformers, the optimum
impedance for a LO (.24mv) ZYX will usually fall somewhere between 50
and 200 ohms. The ideal value will vary from system to system, since it
depends on the electrical characteristics of the tonearm cable, phono
cable and other components. Experimentation in-system is the only way to
determine the optimum impedance for any MC. I’d suggest starting at
around 100 ohms, then moving up or down from there depending on sonic
results. If you are using step-up transformers, I’ll need to know your step-up
(turns) ratio or gain (in db) to make a recommendation. MC’s are
extremely sensitive to impedance loading when the signal is going into a
step-up, so more experimentation will be required."
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chakster, for $8500 I would also try to return to life Miyabi but there are also Miyabi's in disquise under Levinson's and Krell's names for much less money. Besides those are the ''real Miyabi's. |
@chakster
The JLTi is a great bang for buck phono stage. I've had it for 8 yrs or so and have never felt the need to upgrade. FWIW, they are still available though they are now made by Joe Rassmussen in Australia. He was Allan Wrights partner, associate. |
@artemus_5 well, then my JLTi version is newer than yours (and the price is even lower), i got it for a year, comes from Australia, from Bjoern Rassmussen (who’s got a Danish roots, he’s originally from Copenhagen). My JLTI was modified by Joe to let me go much higher than 47k (100k for example for MM carts). I’m experimenting now with FR-7f using JLTi with Luxman 8030 Toroidal Silver SUT for low impedance carts, or with ZYX CPP-1 Pre-Preamp with 125ohm fixed load. This Fidelity-Research FR-7f is a killer cartridge, i think it’s a very special MC, so Nandric was right. Must be a cartridge of the month for me. |
Chakster
Why use a SUT? Doesn’t yours have the loading plug & switching for LOMC? I saw that Joe is building the Mk2 version rather than the Mk4 which is what I have. But I’m not sure of the features on it. I could tell that he (Joe) is very much into modding equipment. Quite interesting |
I use everything to compare what's the best in my system. This SUT is superb, but i bought it for the cartridge with output of .05mV (the Ortofon MC2000) while the JLTi designed for about 0.2mV and higher. Fidelity-Research FR-7f output is .15mV and i have not tried it yet without the SUT on JLTi (will do that for sure). |
Assuming you’re not using stepup transformers, the optimum
impedance for a LO (.24mv) ZYX will usually fall somewhere between 50
and 200 ohms. The ideal value will vary from system to system, since it
depends on the electrical characteristics of the tonearm cable, phono
cable and other components This statement is false, for the reasons I outlined earlier. If you are using step-up transformers, I’ll need to know your step-up
(turns) ratio or gain (in db) to make a recommendation. MC’s are
extremely sensitive to impedance loading when the signal is going into a
step-up, so more experimentation will be required." This statement is misleading. MC cartridges are not sensitive to transformers, its the other way around- transformers are sensitive to MC cartridges. How it works is a transformer **transforms** impedance. So if your cartridge is 10 ohms, the output impedance of the transformer will be twice what it is if the cartridge is 5 ohms. The loading required by the transformer will be different for each cartridge used. This is to prevent the transformer from ringing (which causes harmonic distortion so it is important if you want to hear what's really going on).
If the transformer is not loaded at all, or too lightly, it may not even express its turns ratio at its output- instead it can express its inter-winding capacitance, acting like a poor coupling cap with bad frequency response!!
So loading an SUT correctly is really important! |
