I finally got a record cleaning machine. First thoughts.

@mijostyn  clearly a person who has worked on cartridges for over 40 years knows less than you 😉. 

By way of analogy consider it like plates and cutlery. If you use a plate you have it washed before you use it - likewise same when you use cutlery I assume you clean it after using it.

It's interesting to read all the opinions and theories as well as all the "facts" from the "experts".

I'll stick to my experience.  My experience is that the amount of difference the record cleaner makes depends primarily on the record itself.

I have a VPI HW 16.5 vacuum cleaner and a KLAUDIO LP200 ultrasonic cleaner.  I've had and used the VPI for a few years.  The LP200 is a fairly recent acquisition.

If you buy used records, I recommend a record cleaning machine.  You never know what might be on them.  There may be very little to no difference in sound quality after cleaning or there may be a dramatic difference.  It depends on the record and how it was cared for.  The previous owner may have cleaned it or it may have started life as a very clean record and been well cared for.

If you buy only new records, you may still benefit from a record cleaning machine.  They often show up in crappy paper liners with lots of dust on them.  Sometimes the pressing itself is bad, with lots of noise, ticks, and pops.  No amount of cleaning can fix a poorly pressed record.  On the other hand, more than once I've plopped a brand new record on the table before cleaning it and have been really surprised at how much better (quieter) it sounded after cleaning.  

As mentioned by some, cleaning seems to help with static.  

My vacuum machine and my ultrasonic machine both do a great job.  There are pros and cons to each.

The VPI cost a lot less than the LP200.  It's much faster to clean a record.  The LP200 is fully automated, but takes much longer (9 minutes) to clean and dry a record.  The LP200 takes up a little less space.  The LP200 only needs distilled water, which while cheap, has been in short supply at times recently.  The VPI uses special cleaning solution, which is relatively inexpensive.  I like the Audio Intelligent one-step #6.  Some folks use multiple solutions/passes with their vacuum machines.  Both machines are loud.  Since the LP200 is fully automatic, you can walk away from it and have it in another room.

As far as my practices, I'm not a fanatic about record cleaning.  I always clean used records, other than some from one of my local record stores that cleans their records with a VPI.  I generally don't clean new records unless they are obviously dirty or don't sound good on first play.  If a record looks particularly bad, I may use both machines, using the vacuum machine first to get most of the junk off and then a bath in the US cleaner.  I've been gifted some records that looked like they should have been garbage, but actually played decent after a good cleaning.  

For me, there's no one size fits all approach to record cleaning.  You certainly aren't going to hurt your records by cleaning all of them before play, but it may not be necessary with all of them.  Some may not benefit from cleaning at all.  Some will sound dramatically better.  As I said at the beginning, it depends on the record itself more than anything.

@big_greg 

good advice.

I decided to start from A and go from there. I used a cleaning method I saw on positive feedback - it’s a 2 stage process and I clean my stylus at the end of a record side as advised by the guy at expert stylus. Life’s too short to build up my expertise on cleaning. I am happy to take advice from someone who is a trustworthy boffin 👨‍🏫 

@juanmanuelfangioii , The contact area of an elliptical stylus is 20.6 um2. Let's play it at 2gm.  That would be 1.5500031 e-9  inches squared and 0.00440925 pounds = 28,451 psi . Now the contact area of a fine line stylus like the replicant 100 is twice that of an elliptical but Ortofon tracks them higher around 2.5 gm which would put the psi figure around 18,000 psi. This is how modern cartridges get away with much higher VTFs than the old elliptical cartridges of the 70's when 3/4 to 1 gram tracking forces were the norm. The bullet would be modern styluses decrease record wear even at the higher VTFs

@lohanimal , I have followed my styluses with microscopy for decades. I even now own a WallyScope so I can publish pictures and I will when time allows. It does not take an expert to see dirt on a stylus. Another point is phonograph cartridges are extremely simple devices and all the math is at least a century old. The only difficulty is all the parts are extremely small and what you can't see is always subject to all sorts of alchemy. You want complicated? Take a look at a GE 90 jet engine. 

I just timed the Double Matrix. It takes a second over 2 minutes to clean a record. Actually, it should be clean and treat a record. I mention the fact that records cleaned with the solution I am using will not hold a large static charge but using digitized needle drops on the same brand new album before and after cleaning demonstrates a slight reduction in the back ground rushing noise. Tics and pop are exactly the same. A very small amount of something is being left on the record. I have an idea what it is and I am beginning to think this is proprietary information. What a laugh, me marketing a record cleaning solution. It is indeed a strange world. 

@mijostyn Thank you for those calculations. Enjoyed it and the conversation.

you might actually be learning by doing instead of preaching on a pulpit of unearned belief…

The analysis of the bearing stylus load is actually quite complex, and an example of the complexity and loads is addressed in the article Dr. A. M. Max, Disc Phonograph Records, Max, RCA Engineer Magazine 1966-08-09 1966-08-09.pdf (worldradiohistory.com).  The forces/pressures are substantial and how can the record survive theses forces, the article states:  

There are two explanations of the record's ability to withstand such stresses. One is the size effect in which the resistance to high stresses is attributed to the higher observed strength of materials as the volume or area of the test specimen becomes smaller.  The second explanation relies upon the time- dependent or viscoelastic properties of plastics.  Plastics, as the name implies, are subject to time -dependent phenomena, such as creep, and its converse, relaxation. Because of these properties, stress waves are damped and do not reach the levels predicted by the Hertz equations.

@mijostyn 

Thanks for the tip on the Hudson HiFi record brush. I hate it… but it really seems to work. The amount of static related noise that occurs on a fe albums has disappeared. I like simple and elegant… not a second arm stuck to my turntable. But what can I say, it works and was cheap. 
 

Thanks for the tip. 

Anyone try this? ASB-2 ion | FURUTECH
https://www.furutech.com/2021/04/02/20579/

@ghdprentice , yes it is ...cheap. But, it sure beats grinding dust into your record and it does a number on the static issue. There are more expensive versions out there but they are all defective in one way or another. This one actually works.

@mijostyn

Yes, it seems to work… that is great, cheap is great.

I too am using the Hudson hifi record brush and it works as advertised. Plus it's cheap and effective. 

@mr_m ​​@ghdprentice , please look at the picture of the brush on my system page.

You will notice that I slide the little weight all the way to the front the I decreased the VTA by bending the arm just behind the weight so that the brush is almost vertical. This improves both tracking and dust pick up. If the arm stops tracking it need to be cleaned. Alcohol and a clean microfiber cloth will do it. Also you should be able t drop it from an altitude of one inch during play without hearing a thing through the speakers. If you hear a thump you have a problem with record damping/clamping. You not hear ANYTHING even with the volume all the way up.

I have been using this particular brush for some 10 odd years and have been using one conductive sweep arm or another since 1980 or so. This one absolutely works the best even though it is not exactly audiophile jewelry. I have used every singe one on the market including one that costs over $200 and this one works better. (or I would not be using it) 

@mijostyn 

As I was reading this thread, you were talking about your newly cleaned records no longer holding a static charge.  

When you first discovered this phenomenon, you were going to try a series of eliminations to determine what may be the cause of this.

You mentioned that you would first try cleaning the record with only distilled water on your new machine to see if the static would be eliminated.  I'm curious if you tried this test and what the result was.

Secondly, are you still happy with the Clearaudio Double Matrix Pro Sonic machine?  Any downsides that you have discovered after using it now for just shy of a year?

My VPI 16.5 has served me well for many years, but I feel that it may becoming tired.. so I am giving thought to the Clearaudio Double Matrix Pro Sonic machine.

Thanks much and best wishes,

Don

@no_regrets , The Clearaudio Double Matrix construction quality is first class. I know because my unit was an open box one that I believe was used in a store. A cleaning solution was used that plugged up the water pump and it died in short order. Musical Surroundings was cool with me installing a new pump which they sent me on warranty. So, I have had my machine apart and know it intimately. 

It works flawlessly but it does have a few quirks. The first is, you really have to press down hard on the clamp when you tighten it or the record will slip when the vacuum comes on. I keep my machine down low to make this easy. You obviously have to be careful what fluid you use. Distilled water will not kill the static permanently. To be safe I would use Clearaudio's solution. My mix is proprietary and not up for disclosure as I am considering marketing it. It does kill static indefinitely leaving only the smallest of residues on the vinyl. You just start to see some on the stylus after 10 sides and should clean the stylus after 20 sides using Lyra's solution. If you will write a review on audiogon I will be happy to send you a gallon. 

In short, the only regret I have is buying mine open box. I have no problem recommending this machine. IMHO it is the best record cleaning device on the market. Musical Surroundings has top notch service. You can not go wrong buying any of their products in terms of support. 

@mijostyn   Thank you so much for your reply.  It's great to hear from an actual user!  I've had my VPI for many years and it has done a fine job.  I'm glad that I've had it all this time.  

However, I feel like it may be getting tired... like the motor may be getting weaker and so I am trying to investigate now, which direction I should go if/when my VPI finally fails.  It may be months or a year or longer if/when that may happen, but I want to be prepared for for when that time comes.  In the meantime, I'll be keeping my eyes open for any possible sales.  Maybe there will be one at AXPONA this year😀

Thanks again!  Oh and yes, when I finally do pull the trigger and if your offer still stands... I'd be happy to take you up on your offer.

Best wishes,

Don

@no_regrets , no problem. It is always good to do your research first instead of after. Just make sure whatever you get has a warranty covered specifically by Musical Surroundings. They are the importer. I got the Double Matrix because I was given a collection of 78s and needed something to clean them. I researched the situation for almost a year before I jumped in. The Double Matrix is my first machine. It does both sides at the same time, it uses fresh fluid for each cleaning and rinses the record 3 times during each cycle, scrubbing the record at something like 1000 Hz in between then vacuums the record dry, putting the waste fluid in a separate tank. The Audio Desk is a tinker toy in comparison. Ultrasonic cleaners do not vacuum the record dry. If anything they use an evaporative method that leaves the dirt on the record. If you use one you have to to get a vacuum machine to dry the record. then you can only dry one side at a time. My fluid, by the way can only be used with machines that vacuum dry the record or you will leave to much of the active ingredient on the record. I have not proven this yet but I think the anti static ingredient also acts a lubricant.  It is very water soluble but if you rub it between your fingers it is very slippery.

@mijostyn  The Double Matrix sounds like a great machine... and it better be for the money they are asking for it, lol.  

I agree it's a great idea to make sure it will be covered by Musical Surroundings, a great company to be sure!

Thanks again for sharing your thoughts and experiences with me regarding this machine.

Best wishes,

Don

I’ve been cleaning records for ~17 years. VPI, then Nitty Gritty, and then Loricraft, which was so good I stuck with it alone for eleven years. The I added a Degritter to use after the Loricraft. I’m quite confident in saying record cleaning is the biggest upgrade possible. Sure, you can buy a brand new superclean record (if you’re lucky, as few brand new records are properly clean) and see the differences in a change of cartridge or tonearm etc. But if you have a few thousand records on the shelves, never cleaned beyond using a brush, it would be harder to hear the difference of new equipment in the chain. That’s why I call it the biggest upgrade.

Even manual cleaning will show what I mean, but with more effort and time expended. Vacuum cleaning is a shocking upgrade, point-source vacuum even better, and ultrasonic is the icing on the cake. I bought several hundred LPs in my younger years, then inherited my brother’s larger collection, and then inherited a colleague’s massive collection. Disks ranging from early fifties, then over-played and much abused sixties pop, to everything bought since. Most of them come out silent after proper cleaning. It is absolutely worth the effort!