Mistake or not, I'm also quite surprised & pleased by Synergistic's (Scott Novak) change-of-heart, so I'll make some additional favorable comments just as others have followed up above.
Although I still feel like their prices are insane, I am quite happy with Synergistic's products & in fact I need to buy some more. They make excellent cables; I have a lot of them, incl. some of the priciest. They say that it takes one cable-builder a full day's labor to make up some of these fancy interconnects. There are no economies-of-scale, because they just don't sell very much volume at these stratospheric prices. Example: I bought 1ea. of their best AC cable in early 2000; the serial # was #212. In fall 2000 I bought another Des. Ref. Sq'd AC, along with my new Master Control Center-II. That one was serial #248, so in 8 months they only sold 36 of these $2K monsters. It takes awhile to get them; they seem to be only custom-built to order.
A have to agree that their customer support is much better than some other manufacturers that I've attempted to deal with. I even talked with Mr. Denney myself one day; he ended up handling my inquiry because most everybody else was gone to CES. Ted gave me all the time that was needed to answer my questions (it was not a real long call) I was impressed. |
It's been a few months since I posted something controversial and Carl's gone, dammit, so... quit whining! If they don't give you something for nothing you're going to take your ball and go home? Nobody forced you to spend ridiculous amounts of money on a questionable purchase. How can you be surprised when the wizard who conned you in the first place thinks he can get you, yet again.
It doesn't matter what sort of alchemy goes into the wire, it all starts and stops at the terminations you can buy at any parts house and attach with a little information and 50 bucks worth of tools. Garden hose, fire hose, so what. Why do you think nobody makes a banana or spade that accepts more than #10 wire? OK, maybe the water-filled stuff could be a problem, but the Parts Connection has WBT,CCMS, Kimber, etc connectors that are no more than $100 a set. The pure, unplated copper CCMS spades are $26! And then there's the bare wire school. You think if you cut the cord off at the termination yourself you'll let the magic escape?
I'm not questioning anyone's perception of the value of spending whatever you please on cables, if you hear a difference, go for it. What I am saying is that if an investment is important enough to take a major position, know it. We're not talkng about circuit design here, just connecting a piece of wire to a piece of metal. Nervous about cutting into a $2500 item? What's the downside? You can always send the wire and the $1800 to the manufacturer and say your dog chewed it. |
.......that should be 'you guys', not gus-- geez. |
It was a nice offer, unlike many other companies that will defend their right to be wrong to the bitter end. Audio Note, UK recently dropped the price of Black Gate capacitors which then initiated a stir as to whether the line was being discontinued, replaced, etc. Audio Note came back with the response that the line had been initially overpriced on the market and that on further examination they had decided to reduce the prices. This was a brutally honest statement (especially for those that purchased the items at the old prices) but it is also a statement that is hard to argue with as it rings of the truth. |
First off, I've been a happy and loyal customer of Syn. Res. for 4-5 years. I use their mid-priced ICs, cables, and power cords throughout my system with excellent results. In my above posts I was a little hard on what I consider to be an excellent high end company.
After reading these posts and making a couple myself, I called Syn. Res. and talked to Scott about shortening some Sig. No. 2 spkr cables from 8 ft. to 3-4 ft. and re-terminating. These are mid-priced cables, and the cost would be $200.-- that would be for 8 terminations, or $25. per spade. I consider that reasonable for getting a professional high quality job done, and well worth it to me.
In the course of discussing the above job, Scott asked me if I read Audiogons Forum, and he related the story about Evo845s experience. Quite frankly he said he made a mistake on his first calculation. He was answering about a dozen emails at the end of the day, and he goofed up. He also said that Des. Ref. is very thick and very difficult to terminate (unlike my Sig. No. 2s). They (Syn. Res.) were painfully aware of this thread that is going on here on Audiogon, and they want to do the right thing for their customers. BTW, shortening a Des. Ref. cable apparently takes several hours and a lot of skill and patience, and is not a routine request-- there are several wires involved.
I can understand Evo845s original complaint, but know more now that I've talked to Scott. BTW, Scott has done custom work for me in the past and is friendly and knowledgeable about Syn. Res. products, and prices were reasonable. I told him I was going to make a more favorabe post regarding Syn. Res.-- hope you gus don't stone me off the stage. Craig |
Sounds like there was a mixup, and Synergistic realized the price error. $1000 is reasonable for this surgery (see my earlier posting), and coming down from a higher price is not necessarily unethical; to me it sounds like he is admitting an error. If evo is like China, he'll demand an apology and move on! :) |
Well I'm glad to see Synergistic was company enough to come to there senses. But I have a question, I'm a salesman and yes I do things for profit, I don't do things unless I beleive I'm going to get paid. But as a businessman and consumer I have serious problem when I 2nd quote coming back with a signifacant price difference like that. I have been called out on the carpet on a few deals because I put a few % on the deal, but what they did, I don't beleive is ethical!!!. How can the price be they much different. And lets say because of the neg. press there getting they decide to do this deal at cost for $1000. Who the hell gets a $1600.00 dollar mark up on a $1000 deal. I'm really in the wrong business. Just my 2 cents again. |
Congrats Evo! It's nice to know that Synergistic does care about their customers. Whether or not $1000.00 is too much it is far better than 75% of the cables cost. You know what, maybe it was just a mistake. I, too, thank you for starting this thread. It is nice to see company and customer working together towards a common goal. Good luck in your endeavor. |
Evo845; I'm glad you started this thread too. And I agree that $1000. still seems a HUGE amount just to cut a cable in half and terminate, but OTOH they did drop the price $1600.-- which is a big improvement. Still, I wouldn't blame you if you decide to go to another brand.
I haven't yet contacted them about cutting and re-terminating Sig. No. 2 cables, but I think the No. 2 is a much smaller cable-- guess I'll find out about price. But I want to thankyou for not rolling over and for letting Syn. Res. know what you thought of their pricing polices for what should be a routine service-- you've helped out all Syn. Res. customers, and for posting here, all Agon members/readers.
BTW, I've used their trade-up program also. They do give you 80% of the value of YOUR product in trade value, but ONLY if you're spending twice the value of your product. So, depending on what you're trading in and buying, it can still get pretty expensive. Still, it's better than a poke in the butt with a sharp stick. Thanks, Craig |
IAM GLAD THIS THREAD GOT STARTED. lET me start off by saying scott at synergistic has emailed me back with a new quote of 1000.00. Scott stated that he fallowed the formula that Ted had made.After talking with Ted this morning about me and my anger at such rediculous charges they changed there fee. Scott stated that we on audiogon perhaps dont realize the size of the cable and the work involved. I appreciate there response and fee change, but 1000.00 is still sticking it up my #%@. I think nordost is correct for there fee on such an operation, High end co. should remember who buys there product and without us ,,which there are very few of us really..they well be gone like so many high end co.
I would like to point out that SYNERGISTIC has since emailed me back twice..which a descent co. should with a good customer service.
Has far has lighten up is concerned yes they make a good product but SYNERGISTIC is the one that should lighten up.
How much does cable cost Not $3200.00 for 6ft.. gold is only $260.00 oz. remember |
It couldn't be much more difficult than dressing a deer and our butcher never charged anywhere near $2600.00 for doing this. Though come to think of it he was a butcher and perhaps this is not a good analogy. |
Have you seen the Designer's Reference? It's a firehose! No wonder they want a lot to reterminate. This is not your your average Radio Shack zip wire, it's about the thickness of all 4 of your fingers on one hand together or bigger. I've listened to this cable and it blew my socks off! But with a new baby on the way the $3600 was out of my league for the moment. If you really want to talk about expensive, check out the new Transparent speaker wire at a mere $23,500, or anything Transparent for that matter. I own all SR and to me it sounds better than any other cable I tried, including thin zip cable :> If you saw the Designer's Reference you'd not want to do it yourself. |
To put some substance behind my anger(as someone put it). I worked for a Wire and Cable company where we sold speciality cables to the Automotive, Steel, Hi Temp. cables you name it. Many of the cables where of specail design, exotic materials like Teflon, ERP, Hypolon, Silica, Silicon ect. And I have been through most parts of the Wire making process. And guess what just like everyone else someone made are cable for us to are spec's. There are only a handful of wire and cable manf. AIW, BIW, Royal, Carol, Alcatel and a few others. I could buy 14 gauge Teflon insulated conductor and cable jacketing MIlitary Spec'd for 7.00 a ft from my competitor if I ran out. When Teflon was extremely expensive a few years ago. (The boys at Dupont know we like Teflon Cable and they stick it to us) Now if you goto XLO technical paper on Cable and pricing, they say 6N copper is 200 times more expensive as reg. wire. And Teflon is really really expensive too. But they forget howmuch copper and insulation is in a 1 meter interconnect? an Ounce or 2? the rest is filler, mica, glass? We had cable made for us penny's on the dollar. To put it in prespective. |
Hey guys..I am a cost analyst for a semiconductor and let me lay this out for you. Based on Brieve's post and his estimated time to cut/terminate/solder of about 30 minutes, I am assuming that Synergistic would take about the same amount of time or even less, but less assume 30 minutes for simplicity purpose. Let's also assume that the materials will cost ~$100 to be a little exagerated (solder, new terminations, and etc.). This leaves $2500 ($2600-$100) as labor. If you do the math, this means that who's ever is assembling the cables makes about $5000 per hour ($2500/.5 hr). This is outrageous if you ask me!! I am starting to think the Synergistic high cost is more of a deterant and its put in place perhaps to influence you to buy new cables rather than reworking old ones. What do you folks think? |
Guys, don't you think there's something underlying behind all this? It seems like everyone thinks that the audio manufacturers are "gouging" everyone, and that everyone knows someone that knows someone that can make his own cables for $.50 and wow do they sound good. If that were the case why do we buy these high-end amps, CD players, and even cables? Because they sound great! We love shopping for price but ultimately don't we buy with our ears? We cannot blame a manufacturer like Synergistic for not offering a "free" service on a thick cable, so they make a separate pair -for the audiophile to hawk on AudioGon and make a profit?!? Everyone knows everything makes a difference, from the termination technique to the spades used and the solder involved - why does everyone think it's so easy? I have had great success with Synergistic and I even took advantage of their trade in program and got 80% back for my used cables - pretty generous. I have always had great service from them; and I realize that they're not a non-profit organiation. I'll go back to them because I love their product and had good service. Let's not take things out of context, and lighten up. |
Tswhitsel, that was a beautiful essay. I think and hope you are right. If so, it solves alot of problems for me. I have printed this out and pinned it up near my computer. Any time I am tempted from now on, to venture forth on another 'cablequest', I shall read your essay a few times over. Soon, if I am lucky, I won't even make an attempt, your essay will have me so well trained. If this works, I am not sure I can ever repay you. My gratitude will be enormous. Just imagine the savings in the first 6 months alone. . .
Thanks, your friend forever.
Chris |
At the risk of repeating what others have perhaps already said above, I think we all understand quite clearly what's going on with cable companies. It's greed. The mark-up on some cables is in excess of 1000% (or even 3 or 4000%). The manufacturing costs of the Synergistic cable Evo mentions above is probably less than $100 for materials and labor, and if it's more it isn't much more. These cable manufactures would have us believe there is some black art to cable termination. It just isn't true. I've been terminating my own cable for years and there is nothing to it. It takes me less than half an hour to terminate a pair of interconnects. Most cable manufactures DO NOT make their own cable, but have it manufactured to meet their specs, and then terminate it with their shrink wrap, connectors etc. They would have us believe they pull their own cable. Audiophiles have been buying into this cable hype for too long and as long as there are those of us with more money than sense, or the need for the latest "status cable," then you can expect that they will keep charging these kind of prices. In the words of J. Gordon Holt, cables are nothing more than passive tone controls. Yes, they can make a small difference in the sound of your system, and yes some may sound better in your system than others, but they sure are not worth what some of us are willing to pay. And with few exceptions there is not that much new technological inovation in the cable business. My advice is to buy used on sites like this, and if you really want to avoid the high prices select those cables that are a little dated and not the most in demand. Then take the money you have saved a buy something that can really change the sound of your system....like a new pair of speakers....or a preamp. And if you've never done so, take off the cover of your amp or preamp and have a look at all the parts and workmanship that go into a good design. Then ask yourself how this silly six foot pair of speaker cable, or one meter length of interconnect could possibly be worth what Synergistic and others like them charge for a bit of metal and plastic. |
Nordost use (past tense) to charge next to nothing for re-terminations until they realized people could and were buying longer lengths of SPM and Quattro Fil and then having them cut and reterminated, saving hundreds. They now charge $100 each connection. So having a 3 meter SPM made into three, one meter cables will cost $400 plus tax and shipping. It use to cost about $100. |
Evo, completely outrageous attitude by Synergistic, you would think they owed you a favor for getting gouged when you first got the cable!
Harkey info about Siltech is reassuring and shows a quality company that services its products. Siltech makes some of the highest priced cables known to man, so if they can be reasonable Synergistic is way out of line......as some have said they are defacto refusing to do custom cable work. |
Maybe I'm crazy, but I say it's time we take responsibility for our hobby, our love. I for one would be more than willing to send them a very polite e-mail stating my disbelief and disappointment. If you all really feel the same, do not be afraid to do so as well. Heck, maybe they'll see the error of their ways. Whether or not any one of us owns their product our love of this hobby does pay their salaries and feeds their children, maybe it's about time we let them know that to treat one of us unfairly is to disrespect all of us. We do deserve more, we put our trust in them, we shout our praises gladly and easily. Some on this site give their emotion for a company so fiercely as to condemn the feelings and opinions of people they do not even know. Yet given the chance to show their appreciation or loyalty to those that swear by their name, and what do they do, brush us off? No, not anymore, we are not sheep to be herded! We are the lifeblood of this industry, if we do not stand up and try to make a difference can you really blame them for doing anything other than trying railroad us into "new, cutting-edge technology" at prices so exorbanent that quite possibly those that we love and that love us sometimes get less. Anyways, give the e-mail address and I'd like to respond, maybe a little less dramatically, but just as strongly! What's the worst that can happen, they'll ignore me? Sounds like they're already doing that. |
I emailed them back today and told them that there a fu34in joke and that iam selling all my syn stuff.Like
briweve I well never buy there product again.
There is too much good stuff out there to put up with this
steve |
That's OK Sean, I was going to offer you some old microphonic signal tubes as payment anyway. Thought that you would enjoy listening to them sing along with the music in perfect harmony, it's kind of a Karoake effect. |
I apologize to everyone for what I am about to say. Ladies and Gents, alot of what we are talking about is of our own doing, me included. Just look at some of the prices that we are willing to pay for accessories in our beloved hobby. I swore that I would never pay more than $100 for a pair of interconnects, but very recently I pulled out the plastic and paid 3 times that without batting an eyelash. I took the cords home and they really did not improve things much over my $100 cords. Why did I buy the cord when I swore I would never do such a thing? I got caught up in the hype. I know what you are saying, another skeptic. Nope, I feel that good wires and cords and tweeks make a difference. It just seems that the marketeers are taking advantage of our love of our hobby and we are playing right into their hands by paying whatever price they dictate. I guess the people who can afford to pay these prices will. But I for one, can no longer do so. |
Hey Dekay, i need you to contact me right away. I quoted you the wrong price on those "RCA Shunts" that i made for you. 8 "terminations" at $10 apiece sound MORE than reasonable compared to what most of these "wire bandits" are charging : ) Besides that, the materials used in the RCA's consisted of the FINEST low grade metals that money can buy while the plastics had special "non-resonant" dye used in their making. Man, i'm telling ya.... I got ripped off on that one. My prices are going WAY up.... : ) Sean
> |
Oops, it's speaker cable. Okay, thats 1 connection, and it's probably a crimp, besides. |
I Don't Understand why you wouldn't go to a source like the parts connection and buy wbt or vampire or whatever and some shrink wrap and do the terminations yourself. There's 2 connections, hot and ground, period. you cut off the factory termination and see which wires go where.$30 for a weller iron and you can shrink the tubing with a Bic although I don't recommend it. And then you can say, "I did that". |
Jay it seems that you called it right: "we'll only do it if you REALLY make it worth our while". I once requested an upgrade (as they advertise & seemingly encourage buyers to do) adding active shielding to a discrete-shielded cable pair. The quote was ridiculous; it seemed that they really wanted me to buy more cables instead. So I did; bought used instead & they netted Zero $ & a ticked-off customer. BTW I'd already bought ~$8K worth of their products & I told them that, as a vested customer, that I didn't appreciate their "offer" but business must be very good because the attitude was more-or-less a "so-what". |
I bought a 2 and 1/2 meter sg3 80 siltech on audigon. Siltech agreed to cut it into three equal lengths and charged me just the price of retermination which was $50.00 per end for a total of $400.00. I recently had them reterminate a digital cable which they did for 80.00 and then they sent it next day at no extra charge. I thought I'd share this because 1-I feel siltech deserves the kudos and 2- just to keep a balance view in a jaded world. best regards |
Why even mess with retermination. Pick up the exact cable here or on auction and sell what you have. You make out better and it gives you a chance to upgrade. |
I believe I missed my calling!
I'm going to learn to terminate cables.
Being retired is ridiculous when lunatics are running around earning the cost of a dinner for two at Alain Ducasse hourly!
I'm sure it'll take me less time to learn this new field. It only took a couple of years to become an actuary and paid a lot less!
Bill E. |
Lets see now. Richard Vandersteen can put out two entire sets of 2Ce loudspeakes for the price it takes to cut and solder WBT plugs on two ends. I think I DO understand...quite clearly |
My guess is that they give these ridiculous price quotes because they don't want to spend the time doing any custom work. They could have just refused outright to do any custom work.
Most of these companies don't have much manpower and so they put their resources on whatever pays the best. |
I had a similair experience with AudioQuest about 1 yr ago. I had bought 30ft of Video 2 cable from a guy that wired his house with it. So I bought it and called AudioQuest to see howmuch it would be for them to terminate it. Them gave me a quote of $300.00 a termination. So 1800.00 for 3 cable. I told them they were flipping nuts and told them to pound sand. And by the way they lost a customer. I will never buy a AQ cable again. SO after telling them what I though of them , I get a call from there sales guy , engineer whoever, saying that they will fax me a schematic on how to do it myself. So I ran down to the local AQ deal and bought some AQ connectors. I about $15 bucks a piece, I think(?) and did it myself. 30 mins later I had myself 3 10 ft. cables for 90 bucks. Gave them to a friend and he loves them. Like I said I will not touch another AQ cable. You know for such a small customer base High End companies really know how to alienate there customer base. I guess you have to screw your friends because your enemies won't let you. |
Well, I would charge you $3850.00 (<- no typo) to cut your cables in half, so I think you are getting a pretty good deal from them. :) On the other hand, if you would rather spend the extra money and have me do it, I'd be more than happy to. My cutting technique gives cleaner highs and tighter bass vs. factory cuts. |
That is ridiculous. Thanks for the warning about them. I was just considering using their speaker cables. On the other side of this, I recently needed to change my Jenalabs XLRs to rca. I asked about retermination. I was told that they would just exchange them for a nominal fee. Some companies offer service and loyalty to their customers. Others take the money and run. |
Hay guy,s thanks for your responce.No typo, there formula is 1 pair 3ft. 3000.00 x2 =6000 -3400==2600 they said its more work to cut and terminate then to make new. Go figure
steve |
Evo845; I've run into a similar situation with Syn. Res., and once we buy into their program, they've got us by the cajones. I just asked them to make me a set of ICs with a "Y" on the amp end-- for biamping-- and I would even supply the ICs. But they told me it was actually cheaper to buy a second set of ICs. And yeah, I wa s pretty POed, and I mean to the point of changing to a different brand wire.
I was also considering doing what you are, but with Sig. # 2 spkr cable. That's incredible that they'd charge that much for cutting the damn things in half and terminating them. Why not call and try talking with Ted Denney, CEO, Designer etc. I actually found it was a lot cheaper to go through a dealer to get a 4 ft. set of ICs made by them. Good Luck. Craig. |
Dekay may be right, that doesn't make any sense. |
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