How to increase volume of my turntable - pre-amp - amp setup

I see it at amazon and other places.

Thanks to everyone for your help. I have learned something here!

Yes, the ProJect Phono Box E.  Has 40dB gain. Seems likely the go-to phonostage at that price point.  Guess not sold by Needle Doctor, sorry. 

Thanks mesch! I'll get in touch with Needle Doctor about the PRB E.

The specs listed are for the Phono Record Box E, which in addition to being a phonostage also serves for analog to digital (A/D) conversion of LPs.  The Phono Box is a phonostage only and thus less expensive $60, and yes, if its gain is also 40db it will boost the signal over your Behringer by 5dB.  This would not bring the volume up to that of your CD player however might be enough to satisfy your needs. The voltage supplied by the Phono Box would be about 1.7X that of the Behringer.  I believe Needle Doctor sells the Phono Box, they are good to talk to. Look them up online. 

reubent,

I have the Logitech Z-680.

Here is a link to the specs:

https://www.cnet.com/products/logitech-z-680/specs/

I'll check those inputs.

noromance,

This preamp will boost the signal more than the Behringer I’m using now? I see that gain is 40dB for a mm cartridge versus 35 dB for my Behringer PP400.

Here are the specs;

Technical specifications

Pro-Ject Record Box E

Input capacitance/input impedance MC: 100ohms/120pF (low output MC)
MM: 47kohms/120pF (MM or high output MC)
Gain, MM / MC 40dB / 60dB
Output voltage typically 300mV/1kHz at 3mV/1kHz (MM) or 0,3mV/1kHz (MC)
Max. output 9,5V (1kHz)
Noise floor MM / MC 94dB (A weighted) / 75dB (A weighted)
THD MM / MC <0,01% / <0,05%
RIAA-equalisation curve accuracy 20Hz - 20kHz / max. 0,5dB
A/D converter Burr Brown PCM2904 16-Bit Delta Sigma
Sampling rates 32, 44,1 and 48kHz
USB output 5 pin mini b connector (USB cable supplied)
USB signal digital serial data protocol USB 1.1
Input / Line output 1 pair RCA/Cinch sockets each
Outboard power supply 18V/500mA DC, suitable for your country’s mains supply
Power consumption 100mA DC
Dimensions W x H x D (D with sockets) 120 x 32 x 100 (115) mm
Weight 250g without power supply


https://www.amazon.com/Pro-Ject-Phono-Box-Preamplifier-Black/dp/B01CZW87HS/ref=sr_1_12?s=electronics...

lowrider57,
"I totally agree that the Pro-Ject is the way to go. When I reread the thread I realized that the Logitech was the only source for power."

Yes it is my only power source.it has plenty for my needs.

Sorry to neglect this topic fora few days. I'm co-ordinating a renovation of my house. that kept me busy for a while.

mesch,

This is the cartridge i have.
https://www.amazon.com/Technica-AT3600-Standard-Magnetic-Cartridge/dp/B000A3945Y/ref=sr_1_2?s=electr... 4.2mV output

Rajastrums,

You're comparing the speaker output volume between a Turntable and a CD player connected to an inexpensive multi-channel computer speaker system. Most of the feedback you will receive here is based on experience with a more typical 2-channel audio hi-fi system. Unless we have ALL of the details about your particular setup, we can't tell you exactly what's happening with your unique setup. And detailed specifications for your inexpensive Logitech computer speaker system don't seem to be readily available.

Based on the information I've seen I would say you need either more gain from your phono cartridge or your phono pre-amp. However, there is a possibility that you have a setup issue with your Logitech computer audio system. The Logitech seems to use non-standard cabling, etc., so standard hi-fi setup may not apply. 

Lastly, how do you have your phono-preamp connect to the Logitech system controller box? Which input are you using? What input are you using for your CD player (digital input or analog input?)? 

You either have a problem your the overall gain of your TT/phono setup or you may have a setup problem on the Logitech speaker system side.

What is gain on the ProJect Phono Box? Unless the Box has appreciably more gain than the Behringer how is that going to help?

The answers to each of the OP's questions as posted in 4th paragraph are; yes and yes.  We still don't know what AT cartridge is on the Scott TT, therefore don't know the output.

To me the only complicating issue is the relative cost of adding a vinyl system to an ultra inexpensive computer system. One that can closely match the volume levels provided by a CD player. Not that it can't be done.

I totally agree that the Pro-Ject is the way to go. When I reread the thread I realized that the Logitech was the only source for power.

This is getting a little over-complicated.
The OP has an inexpensive setup. 
Just get this and hook it up and you will be fine. You can always send it back if you don't like it.
https://www.amazon.com/Pro-Ject-Phono-Box-Preamplifier-Black/dp/B01CZW87HS/ref=sr_1_12?s=electronics...

Yes lowrider, I was afraid the OP has one of the budget AT cartridges that had the lower output which would not be suitable for the loudness levels desired with a 35dB gain phonostage. If so, a 5mV cartridge may provide the volume needed but not be equal to the CD player output. A 5mV cartridge and a 40+ dB phonostage would serve much better.  

I have a cheap Scott turntable equipped with a low priced Audio-Technica mm cartridge through a cheap Berhringer pre-amp into a Logitech Z-680 speaker system. I also have a CD player separately into the system.

If the Berhringer is a phonostage, then I assume all sources are plugged into the Logitech. There are no specs listed, but it accepts line level inputs.
The budget AT carts I looked up are rated at 3.5, 4.2, and 5.0mV at 1 kHz. So it seems that a MM cart into a phonostage with 35dB gain is too low.

https://www.amazon.com/Logitech-Computer-Speakers-5-Speaker-Silver/dp/B00007AKDP

I believe he needs a phonostage with higher gain or a cartridge with higher output. At 35dB of gain he is not getting even 1 V output from cartridge/Behringer combo. If my calculations are correct it would require 46dB gain from phonostage to get 1 V from a 0.5mV cartridge, based on dB output = 20 x log(1/.005). 

Still wonder what AT cartridge he owns.

His Behringer phono stage has 35db of gain.
https://media.music-group.com/media/PLM/data/docs/P0492/PP400_P0492_S_EN.pdf
But if he needs more gain, a stepup transformer or s/s headamp will do the trick before the Behringer.
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2050601.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.H0.Xphono+steup+transformer.TRS0&_nkw=phono+steup+transformer&_sacat=0

Cheers George

Which AT cartridge do you have?  MM cartridge gain is measured in milli volts (mV), usually running from 2.5 to 5 mV. Phonostage gain is measured in decibels (dB), Most budget MM ones usually run from 34 to 50 dB. Do you know the gain of yours? Knowing these values would help to derive the best cartridge/phonostage combination to achieve your goal.

A doubling of voltage provides a 6 dB increase in gain. A 9-10 dB gain is required to provide a doubling of perceived loudness. The output of your CD player is likely 2.something volts. Your cartridge/phonostage is likely putting out ~1 volt. Therefore the CD player provides ~6dB of gain over your cartridge/phonostage combo.

Good Day Folks! Thanks for helping me out.

reubent, The Behringer preamp in my system is a phono preamp.

https://www.amazon.com/Behringer-MICROPHONO-PP400-Ultra-Compact-Preamp/dp/B0028QCYS0/ref=sr_1_8?s=el...

It performs well enough for my casual needs and increases the signal enough that when listening to a LP at full volume you need to talk louder when in conversation. But a CD  is much louder at full volume than a LP . You have to shout.

I want more volume from my LPs.

czarivey you wrote:

pick up phonostage with higher gain.

I wholeheartedly agree! How do I know which phono preamps have higher gain? How do you evaluate specifications? When I check out preamps I see these kind of specs:
Input Sensitivity: 3mV at 50K Ohms              
Output: 2V max (P-P) at 10K Ohms -
Input Sensitivity/Impedance/PHONO 3 mV / 50K Ohms

I have no idea how to use this information. Help!

noromance, you suggested a different preamp. I have looked at many of these but, as I wrote above, don't know how to evaluate. I assume a pricier preamp is higher quality but does higher quality mean more gain?

Search here for a choice at various price points.
https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_1_5?url=search-alias%3Delectronics&field-keywords=phono+....

If I can't get a more powerful preamp this component  https://www.amazon.com/TC-780LC-Stereo-Booster-BLACK-VERSION/dp/B000RZXAHI  seems to be an alternative. But, as lowrider57 said I'd rather not introduce another component into the chain.

Am I on the right track? 

Yes, you need a phono preamp otherwise known as a phonostage. Given that your other components are so inexpensive you might search E-bay for an older Radio Shack phonostage. They can be had for ~$20.  Audio Technica made one that was selling for ~$50, you might search for one of those. I don't remember model number. 

If you are willing to spend more, Schiit Audio sells on for $129 that is highly recommended at that price point. You can also check out Needledoctor online.

@reubent is correct on all points. The last thing you need is a cheap device that boosts your output signal while increasing and adding noise in your system. And you don’t need more gain from your amp to the speakers, you need gain from your TT cartridge to the preamp.

Once you have a phono pre-amp in the system, the output when playing records and CDs will be similar.

This statement says it all. The output level from a cartridge is VERY low.

No, you need a phono pre-amp to go between your turntable and your pre-amp. The output of a phono cartridge is very low relative to a "line-level" component like a CD player or tuner. The output of a phono cartridge requires special equalization, as well as gain, before it is input into a pre-amp.

You can get a phono pre-amp from Pro-Ject, NAD, Parasound, etc., for about $100 - 150. You can find cheaper on e-Bay or at Parts Express, but I don't know how well they will perform.

Once you have a phono pre-amp in the system, the output when playing records and CDs will be similar.

Thanks for your help folks.

I think I understand that if I get a a phono preamp unit that is compatible with the type of magnetic cartridge in the turntable then all preamps will increase the signal to the same line level. Or at least any slight line level differences would be difficult for the casual listener to notice. So a different preamp might improve signal quality but not increase its level.

So it seems that what I need is something like this; https://www.amazon.com/TC-780LC-Stereo-Booster-BLACK-VERSION/dp/B000RZXAHI This component will boost the signal from the preamp on its way to the  Logitech speaker system. Other people use it for this purpose.

To me it would make sense for some company to combine the function of this box and a phono preamp into one unit. Maybe someone manufactures a component like this but i haven't found it yet.

Am I thinking about this in the right way or am I off the mark?

at this point of time, get descent phonostage first and see the effect. than you can shop for descent cartridge.
needledoctor has now deal on 2m Red with headshell $129

rajastrums,

A phono pre-amp is required in order to perform RIAA equalization and provide gain between the phone cartridge and the pre-amp/amp. Some pre-amps, and most receivers, have a phono stage built in. If there is not a built-in phono stage in your Scott TT (not likely) or the Berhringer pre-amp (also unlikely), you will need a phono pre-amp. Since you have a MM cartridge, you will want to get a phono pre-amp for a MM input, or one that is switchable between MM and MC. A simple MM phono cartridge will be the less expensive option.

czarivey & noromance thanks for the quick response!

I can change the cartridge and/or the pre-amp?
How do I evaluate output specifications? Does it matter? Assuming similar quality and, of course, higher output can I match any MM cartridge with any phono pre-amp?

Search here for a choice at various price points.
https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_1_5?url=search-alias%3Delectronics&field-keywords=phono+...

pick up phonostage with higher gain.
Great MM  ones on budget are Belari VTPH, Nad PP1, ProJeckt phono box.