Tusa
Good point (s).
Good point (s).
how much would you say a good set up cost
ok, we all have gear, but now days, what price do you think you have to spend to have a real good system. not over kill, just good equipment, good sound stage. all around mid to mid high. I'm saying at least 30-35 thousand gets you in that level. I was talking the other day with some friends and we never put a price on our gear. you always get this piece now then that later. but have you ever sat down and figured out just what you paid for your system. I was shocked when i did it.
58 responses Add your response
A system budget is wholly dependant on the size of the Listening Room. To fill a large Room with sound, requires purchasing Large and powerful Speakers, which will require a powerful Amplifer(s) to properly drive them. A good Preamplifier and Source Component will work equally well in a small Listening Room - as in a large one. In a large Listening Room the lion's share of the budget would have to go towards the Speakers and Amplifer(s) - in a small/modest size Room the CD Player and Preamplifier will most likely take-up more than half of the budget, using modest size Speakers (Monitors) and a single moderately powerful Amplifier. As others here have said "the Listening Room dictates the overall budget", as well as budget (component) allocation. |
Jax2: my point is simply that the sonic quality ceiling on amps, cd-players and such is reached more quickly, though lord knows the price ceiling is not. Audiophile reviewers/manufacturers, I realize, like to promote the idea that the difference b/t a 10k amp and a 2k amp, or even more absurdly, a 1k cd-player and a 5k cd-player, is the equivalent of, or at least close to, the difference between a 10k set of speakers, and a 2k set of speakers. Not even close, I'd say. |
Stewie The point of diminishing returns paints a very broad swatch and applies to speakers too. As with any other piece of the puzzle in a system, speakers as well need careful consideration, not just a greater portion of the budget or overall costs. Speakers simply are important. No more so however than the rest of the rigs parts. In fact it took me only a short time at a dealers showroom to discover one day not long ago, that it is definitely “What’s up front” that counts more so than mere speakers. I’m not dissin’ speakers here nor their significance, just pointing out they only reproduce a signal given to them. Give them a lesser quality signal, that’s what they will reproduce, they’ll not make it better. Elite… Your not preaching to the choir here, but to those folks on the right rear most back pew…. Those just there on the end of it… The other 98% of the congregation isn’t shelling out $100K for HT. I’ll guarantee you that. Obviously you’re too close to that small portion to see plainly the rest. 98% of the people I know have much greater incomes than do I. Some are well into the millions of $$$ too. Enormous homes, beautiful cars, nice people too, by and large. They’ll buy a 60 inch plasma, a receiver, disc player and tiny speakers…. Or just opt for a big plasma & Bose sound system. Though they all have the means they do not have the bug. The inclination. The desire to drop lots of dough into a home theater. Of those that do, their other halfs won’t allow it. Those item removes still more of those with the means, from getting involved. Desire. They would mostly as soon as drop a couple hundred on a round of golf, or lunch, rather than check out the latest DVD player. What I found in dealing with the masses also is the issue of plug and play simplicity. Fewer and fewer make the cut when operational tasks of the rig are even superficially reviewed, as they’ll opt for ease over performance near every time. But then you know all that of course…. Or you would have numerous locations and you’d be hiring as many installers as you could get your hands on. BTW… each of them has been to my home and are summarily impressed with my own gear, until they hear of its costs. I’ve long since quit mentioning what I spend on things… especially what I pay for wires now and then, let alone the components themselves. It is funny though to see their expressions when I quote them the retail for one of my extension cords. Every time, it’s eyes widen, mouths open, and heads shake, followed by a moment of disbelief and temporary deafness, as usually they will ask me to repeat myself saying, “How much? For a cable?” It’s like the robot from Lost In Space…. For them, “That does not compute!”. |
$ spent on speakers will have the greatest effect on how your system sounds. That's bound to open up a whole other rats nest of opinions. You can do a search on "hierarchy", "budget", or similar verbiage, and you'll come up with quite a few threads on that subject, and a ton of various opinions on exactly how to spend your money once a budget is established. FWIW, the best investment and most profound improvement I've had with any component has been a recent upgrade to my front end. Not to downplay the importance of good speakers. I'd add a bit to your statement about diminishing returns: That is not just limited to CD players - it applies to varying degrees with all components, wires, and tweaks and will vary quite widely from person to person as to where that threshold occurs. |
$ spent on speakers will have the greatest effect on how your system sounds. I'd invest in the best speakers I could afford. If your budget is, say, 2k, (and that's an enormous amount to spend, I realize, for most folks) I'd put at least 1200 into 2nd hand speakers, and then find a good, well-built, ss amp to drive them: $400-600 on a 2k budget. 2nd hand is okay here too, but keep in mind that capacitors will have about a 20 to 30-year lifespan. Once you get up to a certain price point on a cd-player, it's diminishing returns, so I'd get something that's reliable and solid with the rest of your cash. |
I guess you could look at it as therapy for what ails you. |
I think it depends on what goal you are trying to accomplish is and the size of your listening room;such as being able to reproduce eric clapton laying down some tracks in the recording studio or a live presentation of a full philharmonic orchestra; 2 very different goals in which the equipment and cost of will very greatly in my opinion. |
The "room" should always be figured into the system cost (unless you're talking headphones). For most of us it's difficult to have a whole room devoted to audio which is kind of what you need. From my experience most speakers need to be pulled at least two feet from side walls and 4 feet from the rear wall. That takes up a lot of space. Then the room needs to be "deadened" using sound absorption materials (DIY foam blankets). From there a tube pre-amp and a 100 watt SS amp will make most speakers sound pretty good. I personally enjoy when the music sits between to 3' behind the speakers. That way I get a window into the music instead of it hitting me in the face. Anyway back to the topic at hand, spend the money on the room even if that means finishing a dedicated space in the basement. All in all I think you could spend $8-10K (room, speakers, pre-amp, source, amp) and have a system that should be enjoyable for years. If you already have a 12x16 finished room then you could cut that cost in half easily. That amount is based on finishing the room yourself along with buying mostly used gear. |
My point to some extent is that while many on this site may be able to spend 30k, that even if you have the money -there is no need to spend that much for a very excellent system (I should talk). SOTA is an elusive idea to me, but I know that you can have excellent sound for 10k or less. For example, I think that the recommedation made earlier of Merlin VSMs with an Ars Sonum integrated would be more than impressive to most listeners, even experienced Audiogon folks - it is a very well sorted speaker with an amp practically designed to drive them - true, proabably closer to 10k used, but a pairing that a few folks with former 40k systems have come to own for reasons other than limited $$$. Cost no object doesn't always mean better sound (though obviously it can). I heard a few CNO systems at RMAF'08 that I would not want in my listening room compared with my more "humble" system. Experience and understanding how to put a system together is a very valuable form of currency. |
I agree with Elite - that to the many professionals (executives, Doctors, lawyers, etc.) that use this site, $30K is not an extravagant amount to spend on a good “new” Stereo System, but is rather quite realistic. I too agree with Jax2 that outside of the Audiophile World, say to “Joe The Plumber” $30K is a lot of money to spend on a Home Entertainment System - and, that there are middle-class folks in this Country that are (or soon to be) hurting big time, and to whom a pair of good Speaker Cables is the equivalent of a month’s income. But, this is not the matter at hand on this “Site” – the pursuit of “state of the art”, and for the most part “cost no object” sound reproduction is - and with that said, I feel that the majority of us are on the same track. |
'the rest is fun and games'-Pubul57.....you are correct sir. one only has to attend 'one' equipment convention or show to figure out that most of what the companies are offering is an odd exotic cocktail which has no more bite than most of what you find in what the hobby deems as beer budget mid- fi. |
I think that at 30-35k you could build a system that would be hard to beat no matter how much more you would be willing to spend, assuming you know what you are doing, but I still think I could come very, very close at 10K used, and could certainly put together an extemely good sound system for less than 5k, and as Jax2 suggests, even that amount of money would be considered innsane by most folks, but reasonable by folks on this forum. So to ansswer the OP, $5k should certainly get you a "good set up". The rest is fun and games that come with being into the hobby IMHO. |
| Post removed |
I don't think that most people today consider a $30K Rig a "show off System", as some here have mentioned, not at a time where $100K Home Theater Systems are par for the course, at least among the professional class - as I would imagine most of us here belong to. The VAST majority of people in this country (and certainly far greater on this planet) would most certainly consider those price ranges utterly absurd. Let me emphasize the word "VAST" as the ratio would be on a staggering proportion. I don't know what you mean by "professional class" but if you are referring to our level of income, I would maintain that you could isolate those in higher levels of income (in this country at least) and, though you may bring that ratio down a bit, I think you'd find that priorities are not even remotely resembling what you are intimating here..that is in looking beyond the demographic that makes up the tiny segment of folks posting on this specialty site. You are preaching to the choir here so you'll probably get plenty of folks agreeing, but out in the real world it sure doesn't prove out that way in my experience. I routinely go into multi-million dollar homes as part of my business. Audiophiles are a rare breed, even among the very wealthy. In over 25 years in my business and visiting countless people of all walks of life, people who put that kind of priority on audio/video gear are by far the very tiny minority. At least that's been my experience. I would also still contend that the threshold of investment where huge dollars yield very minor improvements is well below the prices you are suggesting. I'd qualify this with the contention that most people are not discriminating enough to either hear or care about such differences (obviously some of the present company would be excluded from that observation). |
$30 > $35K does seem about right for a new (not second-hand) near-reference stereo system. This range seems to be the current sweet-spot for tier-one rated components, based on today's new retail pricing. The good news is, that if done right, there is very little sonic-incentive to go much beyond this range, at least from what I have heard. I don't think that most people today consider a $30K Rig a "show off System", as some here have mentioned, not at a time where $100K Home Theater Systems are par for the course, at least among the professional class - as I would imagine most of us here belong to. |
oh, just in case ..all new...dual turntable(auto rules), onkyo integrated(if it was german it would be 3 grand), ohm micro walsh tall(real bass and no friggin stands), any garden variety front load cd player(no cd players are that good,or that bad)...3500 bucks total (give or take).....hey, you're ready to go up against many of the 100k rooms at any tradeshow.....ps, fill your house with records and cd's......there are lots of other combos as well. |
Around here we have a saying regarding water craft…. “A boat is a hole in the water in which, you throw money.” I believe it appropriate enough to consider a parallel here, “An audio rig is a hole in the living room you throw money into.” Yep. It’s all ego. Case in point… of the rigs listed here and the figures pointed too…. Are prime examples enough. How many gave their ‘paid for’ prices, or their “MSRP retail” prices? I never kept a running total on the expenses I’ve made to attain the sound I wanted… in fact. My heart couldn’t stand it. At some point, I reassessed my goals and started getting OK with what was on hand, instead of chasing a myth. My myth being something akin to a point just past perfect. I got so caught up in things that I was buying stuff I didn’t need, with money I DIDN’T HAVE, to IMPRESS PEOPLE I HADN’T EVEN MET YET! On the whole, ROUGHLY SPEAKING, I’ve thrown $29K or so in what’s on hand now. Total. For everything in all 3 systems including projector, receiver, 120 inch screen, etc. Not counting what I did to enclose my room and redecorate it… add another $8-10K there. I’ve a bit further on to go too. Perhaps a Remington, or a Monet. Only my Sound Anchor amp & speaker stands plus my Oppo DVD player were paid for at MSRP. That were some of my best moves though, given price to performance. On some other’s I paid quite close to retail. I spend more time listening to my $3K BR rig than I do my main one, by a long shot. I think I enjoy each about the same. Loudspeaker size IS important… as was said. I found it quite interesting, and as well, very frustrating, picking out the most recent speakers that are living here now… rent free by the way! There must be thousands upon thousands literally. The herd gets culled very quickly when cost, esthetics and electronic temperament are examined more closely however. My bucket still has a small hole in it and more duckets will be cast into it, albeit, not much more. , then there’s one of my fav sayings, “If you’ve only one ear, stereos are half off.” It is a heck of a lot more expensive to create a nice high end video system for the visually impaired. Maybe I should have thought about that a mite longer before it’s undertaking…. Guess I’m stil a bit short sighted. ;-)) |
| Post removed |
I think the most important thing is determine one's audio aesthetic. It takes time, and a lot of listening to systems and research. Once one identifies with a philosophy of reproduction, then it becomes easier to determine how to achieve that within ones budget, expectations, and room size. Just a few of the multitude of categories that come to mind are planar systems (which excel in room coupling), SET/single driver systems (which value coherency above extension), large scale dynamic systems, tube/triode (including OTL) systems (harmonics and fluidity), Horn based (dynamics), mini monitor (image specificity), all digital (including room correction for flatter in room response), etc. Each represents a divergent path to achieving ones desired results. There are many price points that can be hit in each of these schools of thought. And it becomes easier to research and weigh people's comments against one's known values, rather than just assembling components and hoping they will lead to long term satisfaction. Personally, for me it was first hearing ESL63 USA's that catapulted me into the high end. Once I knew what type of system I wanted to assemble, it became possible to do just that within what I had to spend. I can't do large panels anymore due to current space issues, but perhaps when I do have the room, I'll know clearly how to go about it. |
The answer to this question is much simpler than most want to make it. A good set up costs just a little more than you've already spent. Any disagreements? All kidding aside, a decent system can be built for $2-3K, though it will have sonic limitations. I believe a VERY good, full range system can be put together for around $6-7K which includes all the electronics, accessories and basic room treatments. To hit this price point requires buying used AND waiting for the right deals to come up. But it can be done, though what is "good" is quite relative. As has been said ad infinitum, one of the most important elements is the room involved. Making the wrong room work is a pricey proposition which will skew anyone's pricing guesstimate. Nothing earth shattering here, but I literally spent several years pondering this very subject in detail. After a long hiatus I'm putting the finishing touches on a new (but all used) system, so have a lot of recent experience from which to draw. For whatever that's worth. |
$30K is ridiculous as a minimum startup figure given the qualifications of the original post for what a 'good system' revealed, IMHO. One can get a damn rewarding system, especially on the used market for under 5 figures. I'd reiterate that a bad room can ruin both a $3k system or a $30K system or a $100K system. I mention that as many folks see the room as outside of the "system". View it as you may in or out of the chain, and as high or low in the hierarchy as you may think; it can make or break a system. |
| Post removed |
Tvad Exactly correct :-)_ And trust me I don't say that to be pompus, and Hell I don't know much, but learned a lot if that makes sense. But I can say for somebody to pay someone that does have a clue on some of this stuff and do it right would cost as much as some just buying the next level of component, which will re-sell of course better un-altered in most cases. Thanks, and it is a lot of fun, and of course takes a ton of patience with good direction... Kinda like building a custom house, you need to decide who you want to make that real special faucet on that bathtub! |
| Post removed |
Several un-explainable and un-purchaseable equipment :-) Well of course it all started as somebodys gear, and ended up with just their original name tag on it in the end, Mainly just all highly customized pieces and specific pieces ordered and altered with the best of the best to effect the important aspects of the electronics, cables and room itself. Nothing special just done right from the ground up this time vs. trying to match everything, there is always tradeoffs. |
| Post removed |
Pubul57 Just to clarify I had a 30k system that could and would trump some up into 100 k in systems... We could go on and on all day, I was simply stating that you can be happy at many levels lower than some state or maybe think is possible. So you are correct... And I only threw my example out due to the original poster that started the thread was saying 30 to 35 k seemed to be some kinda magic #... If I was to do it again yep your right I could EASILY put together a no nonsense 30 k very optimal system just as easily as one for 3 k.. But I would not be happy having that much invested no matter how good it was now that I have found the important part of the equation that all audio beings lose sight of at some point in this hobby, and it is not the fancier, the prettier, the bigger the better approach which was my only point, however that having a connection and "feeling" from the music every time you turn your system on.. "For that sensation it is priceless, for everything else there is Mastercard." :-) |
| Post removed |
If you can't put together a fantastic system for 30k it requires a lot of missteps, not that you couldn't have a mediocre system with that much money into it (you can). But I agree with the general tenor of the thread that with 10K or less you could (expecially buying used)put together a very formidable system, especially if you know what you are doing with matching a speaker and amp. If you have been around the block with this hobby, you can do so easily. Without that experience or the advice of a good dealer or experienced friend, you can chase your tail in this hobby and spend a whole lot more without getting a system that will satisfy for the long term. |
It all has to do with your state of mind. I could probably put together a HOME SYSTEM for $6K that I'd be happy with...for at least a few weeks. After spending decades involved in CAR AUDIO...unsuccessfully, I'm currently satisfied with my factory BMW H/K stereo. Just need to add iPod connectivity. At WORK and in my HOME OFFICE a $90 Klipsch ProMedia powered sat/sub system hooked up to my computers gets the job done quite well. |
I agree with Musicnoise, once you get past the crap stuff from the box stores and into nicer equipment, you are paying huge sums for that next 1% better sound. Generically, I think about $2000 thoughtfully spent gets you a very good sounding system. Everything after that is just small incremntal improvements. It is fun to mess wit the stuff though. |
Undertow beat me to it. I'd agree that the room is potentially the most expensive, most often neglected and critical links to getting great sound from any system. Everyone has their threshold of both investment and discrimination of investment/improvement ratio. Comparing to others doesn't really make much sense - there will always be those with both more and less invested and who are happy as clams or frustrated with their lack of synergy. That is reflected already in the range of answers here and on other similar threads. I like Lincoln's answer to a similar question: when asked, "How big should a man's legs be" he responded, "Big enough to reach the ground." |
I had 30 k invested.. I was able to achieve far more ergonomic, better frequency response, and better performance all together after understanding more principles of the game a few years later and now having only 6,000 total invested :-) Plus you just feel far better about yourself when you sit there starring at a couple of amps that cost you 1 fifth the cost over others that don't sound better. So it all depends on how dirty your willing to get your hands, and how many little risks your willing to take to get you there. If you have money to burn and it makes no difference and this is not the route to take, because its a long one. By the way I would never consider at this point from experience spending more, because I know for my personal taste it will not satisfy, this is just "Audio" its actually not that difficult nor is it anything hi tech involved quite honestly. There is ultimately no specific cost to pinpoint this optimal performance level you seek, it will vary quite a bit from personality to person. I will add this final note(maybe a hint) most of the big money necessary would be spent into a great room.. Those don't come cheap at all.. And can at a minimum set somebody back anywhere from 500 to 15,000... |
| Post removed |
A lot depends on what is meant by "a real good system. not over kill, just good equipment, good sound stage." The word "good" is highly subjective. Any Yamaha, Denon, Sony, Bryston, Mcintosh, B&W, Paradigm, ATC, etc. equipment will be good equipment - this is particularly true for the first three companies as their resources so outstrip the specialty companies that it costs little extra to ensure good equipment and the risk to their reputation precludes manufacturing junk. As to the sound at all but the highest listening levels, my listening experience is that there is very little difference between a $2000 system made up of a budget CD player, monitor speakers, and a receiver (yes a reciever) and a $50,000 system. The differences are almost entirely in soundstage and accuracy and those I have found to be 99 percent dependent on the speaker. So, a good digital system can be had for $2000 a slightly better system for around $20,000. After that the returns are extremely small. But, of course, the hobby aspect tends to drive the system up but that is a different type, although very legitimate, type of return. Finally, the status aspect is completely dependent on cost, but also is a different type of return. |
I'm sorry, but with All Due Respect, it is a sort of meaningless / nutty question. Compared to 99% of the world, I am wealthy. Yet, I have what around this 'neighborhood' is quite a modest system. My neighbors think I'm crazy....they all have HTIB! Maggie 1.6's retail for about 1800$ PS Audio GCC250 retail for about 3500$ CA 840c retail for about 1500$ Cabling / mostly BlueJeans maybe 200$ w/mogami XLR HSU sub retail for about 500$ PS Audio Soloist outlet for about 200$ Home electric upgrades nearly 600$ OPPO 981DV 250$ delivered! bargain Panamax Power conditioner 1000$ Room treatments (DIY) 500$ planned budget Ok, so I've spent FAR more than I thought I had. It's like giving blood....a drop at a time....it all adds up. The point? Depends. 1. How deep are your pockets? 2. How do YOU perceive price / performance ratio? 3. How influenced are you by 'keep up w/joneses?' 4. What is your level of obsessive /compulsive behavior? 5. Do you swap / buy / sell major equipment more often than 2x a year? (my system was stable for close to 20 yrs) Remember, it's not a compulsion, it's a hobby....or is it the other way around? |
PK Modified Quad 57 Speakers $3900.00 Quad Classic II Mono amps 2190.00 Demos from Underwood Quad QC 24 P preamp 1000.00 Demo " Source and cabling of your choice, how about a Shindo modified 301 System for a total investment of less than your total budget of $30,000.00 Or a Rega P5 MM setup for around $10,000.00...cool! |
Well, I would imagine the term "very good sounding" is probably very subjective and am sure most everyone that is in this hobby will say their system fits that bill. And I am no exception. I have less than $2000 in my mostly vintage system. Pair of McIntosh MC40 amps ($600) Altec 604-8G Model 17s ($150) CJ PV-10A preamp ($500) Technics SP25 TT with ATP-12T arm ($60) Denon 103R ($150) lightly used on Agon Cinemag SUT ($160) Marantz CC-65SE CD changer ($20) The Altecs are nearfield monitors and I haven't done any room treatments. All is hooked up with inexpensive cables and wire. I am sure it would sound different than a $16K system. But I doubt the owner of the $16K system is any happier with his system than I am of mine. |
