How much do I need to spend to get a preamp that sounds better than no preamp?

Wow I just read the meat of this thread and  I can't believe the people dishing out the crap to kosst!!   He's right and the rest of you are wrong. He built and owns one of Nelson's products and loves it so  I think we can rest assured he does not hate the man and is not slandering him. 
And I 100% agree I would much rather have an amplifier with 15 DB of gain then with 30.   

Oppo Tech, et al

when I come off full volume on tmy 105 either the bits are dropping, or the VC is too sensitive as the result is loss of damn near everything. I am hoping that the Hattor will solve that problem, and it is a problem

As to the extra I/Os with the Hattor, I think any that not being used are out of the signal path, but I will only be using 2 outs at the most. Still working on solving the opposite problem with my SVS servo subs (volume comes on too quickly) . Maybe a buffer is needed, or maybe SVS servo sub tech sucks. Thinking I might need to get passive subs and use an outboard amp/s  

Nord makes an interesting integrated (I am now jonesing for their amp),. Imagine that with LDRs

Imagine that with LDRs

You can get more linear response with a Baxandall control FWIW.

I installed a Hattor XLR late Friday. It took about an hour to begin sounding good, and maybe just now has hit its sweet spot. It certainly  solved most of the problems driving the 105 direct.

It has a lot more VC control, in addition to a significantly reduced noise floor and a much bigger sound stage. I was surprised by how much bass was missing from the 105 direct to amps.

If your budget is in the ~ $1000 range, I highly recommend it, BUT, it is such a microscope that it will expose lessor kit in your system. After a day with a Cullen power cord and PS Audio XLRs, I switched to Surf Cables XLRs (great audio bargain) and WireWorld PC. These significantly warmed up the sound. Pretty sure my Emerald Physics class D 100.2 SE amps need replacing now. Guessing the chips are 2-3 generations old.

Been my experience that all components have a certain "burn in" period. 

It's been a long time, but I remember even swapping cables, there is still an amount of time that it keeps improving, even though it may have been burned in before.

Not that I know anything about the Hatter, but I might ask where is the line we draw for the definition of "passive". 

After all, even a volume control is a resister, and thus, buffered in a sense (I know that's not buffered). Components besides thinking of it as just straight nothing. 

We have interconnect cables we plug in, or have batteries. But we don't consider them active. 

kosst

His site can be confusing

He offers straight passive as I have, also tube buffered and integrated

@kosst_amojan

I always scratch my head at "passives" with big heatsinks.

@tweak1
I read your other post and looked at the manufacturer's site. It's pretty obvious that it's being buffered. Given the heatsinks, the constant input impedance, and the fact it takes an hour+ to warm up, it's certainly got active devices in the signal path. Passives don't have parts that warm up or need heatsinks.

@tweak1
I'm looking at the "Hattor Audio Ultimate "The Big" Passive Preamp with XLR" and it's got heatsinks. Just saying....

I always scratch my head at people that have zero clue about business. Maybe look up economies of scale. Just saying... 😉

Posted this up on the wrong thread, it was meant to be here.

These are two Hattor’s.
Passive, which I believe you have, which what looks to be Kozmho switched volume control, which I believe is a fixed series resistor and variable ones to ground, which will vary it’s i/o impedance’s at different volume levels, best to me is ladder ones, where the series and shunt resistors work in opposites to each other to give a more constant I/O impedance
https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=145833.0

And the active buffered Hattor which used an opamp.
http://mockingbirddistribution.mockingbirddistr.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Hattor-Min...

Here are some different ways of doing a volume control, quad matched ldr is a ladder
https://www.stereo.net.au/forums/uploads/monthly_2018_06/Capture.JPG.93bbd2ce49060300b06abfd1a62ce8f...

Just found their site, they have an extensive range, of what looks to be well made products, including a tube one
http://www.hattor.com/index2.html#ultimate

Cheers George

About $3 - 4 K on the used market

Another soap box rant, a blind man can see the fins are there for looks, they look a lot better than a plain square box.
http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=151232

Cheers George

I’m pretty sure that’s what I said, isn’t it?

No you were putting ****on the fins, and I wasn’t.
I like the fins, as I said
" they look a lot better than a plain square box."!!!!
http://www.audiocircle.com/image.php?id=151232

Geesh!#! read first, think, pause, then react.

The chassis seems to be used for several pieces of equipment, including amplification, so maybe it is economical ? I like the looks of the heatsinks. @georgehifi I might be ready to try an LDR unit, so what do you think ? Enjoy ! MrD.

Clicking on the links provided, looks like really cool stuff. Well executed, sensible options, and nicely made. 

BTW- extrusions are pretty cheap. Maybe the most cost effective way to build a stiff, non-ferrous box. The designs strikes me as "smart" looking at the pics, like a guy who knows what he is doing and also knows where to source materiels.  

@basement I totally agree !.....Enjoy ! MrD.

atmosphere, all I could find on the Baxandall was math and schematics. What good is that?

  mrdecibel
@georgehifi I might be ready to try an LDR unit, so what do you think ? Enjoy ! MrD.

By all means Flick me a PM with your email address listing your components, and I'll send you all the relative info on the Lightspeed Attenuator, even a diy circuit if you've got the electronic skills and test gear.
If all the impedance's and good, 90% of systems are,  I guarantee you'll never look at an active pre the same way again.

Cheers George 
  

George , I tried to PM you, w/o success. If you could PM me, that would be great. I have had a few passives, but none were exceptional. The particular room and system I would be using it in would be : CD, mostly redbook, modified Sony SACD player, into a modified Adcom GDA 700 D/A converter, into a Nuforce STA 200 amp. I might use my modified Klipsch Lascalas, but have a pair of modified Heresy IIs, with some subs. I believe the Adcom into the Nuforce would be " ideal " together. Enjoy, MrD.

all I could find on the Baxandall was math and schematics. What good is that?

Pretty good if you want one and no-one sells one. You just have to find someone to make it. We can do stuff like that, but as a one-off it might not look at that great.

It has a lot more VC control, in addition to a significantly reduced noise floor and a much bigger sound stage. I was surprised by how much bass was missing from the 105 direct to amps.

Yup. The difference between passive and active right there.

George , I tried to PM you, w/o success. If you could PM me,

Done.
Looked it all up, and your right to go for the Lightspeed in this system. 
Your Adcom with 78ohm output impedance at 2.1v is a perfect match.
Your Nuforce at 51kohm input impedance with 0.45v input sensitivity for full output, is also perfect.

As you can see you only need 0.45v into your amp to give it's full wattage output, and you have 2.1v from your source, so you don't need an active preamp adding more gain.

Remember what Nelson Pass said.

Nelson Pass,

We’ve got lots of gain in our electronics. More gain than some of us need or want. At least 10 db more.

Think of it this way: If you are running your volume control down around 9 o’clock, you are actually throwing away signal level so that a subsequent gain stage can make it back up.

    Cheers George 

Well I just bought a used Ayre K-5x pre. Any opinions?

Well I just bought a used Ayre K-5x pre. Any opinions?

Only a question: if you were happy with no preamp, why?

Only a question: if you were happy with no preamp, why?

+1

Cheers George

kosst_amojan
A quote from an article for an active pre-amp. You’re ridiculous.

You have totally lost it, or your on your second bottle, that quote is NOT from Nelsons active preamp, but from his stance on passive preamps.
Here ’s the whole thing, once again for the aggro one. 

A Quote from the master Nelson Pass on passive preamps.

Nelson Pass,

We’ve got lots of gain in our electronics. More gain than some of us need or want. At least 10 db more.

Think of it this way: If you are running your volume control down around 9 o’clock, you are actually throwing away signal level so that a subsequent gain stage can make it back up.

Routinely DIYers opt to make themselves a “passive preamp” - just an input selector and a volume control.

What could be better? Hardly any noise or distortion added by these simple passive parts. No feedback, no worrying about what type of capacitors – just musical perfection.

And yet there are guys out there who don’t care for the result. “It sucks the life out of the music”, is a commonly heard refrain (really - I’m being serious here!). Maybe they are reacting psychologically to the need to turn the volume control up compared to an active preamp.

Less than 2k. Try “AM Audio”, state of art building, perfect matching and quality selected components, no capacitors into sound routing, dual mono, dual power supply, quality strong metal construction, gold-plated pcb... just volume and input

scope of preamplifier is not to sound but to adjust impedance and normalize gain, bringing the signal, as it is, from source to the amplifier.. for this reason couldn’t be passive and has not “to sound”but just to bring the sound as a diligent steward.. 

it should be enough expensive to ensure building at top quality rating but not so expensive more than a good source or amplifier, if not we are going to revert the sense of things... 

You’ve lost it kosst, go and down another bottle. Go back to complaining about fins on the sides of chassis, you were almost believable then. 

George, I need two inputs because I listen to vinyl too.

Honashagen:
Since you have the Ayre there for use in your system, the relevant opinion is your's. 

We await the results of your evaluation.

@georgehifi When you continue to cherry pick comments from an article that clearly favors active circuitry its disingenuous to say the least. Are you trying to make Nelson a liar??

Repeating it all over and over does not make it right- it just makes it trolling.

Ralph I’m not trolling, you can stalk me all you like, would you like me to start returning the favour?, you "try" to present facts your way, and I’ll do them my way, with whoever/whatever proof I have.

I'm not trolling, you can stalk me all you like, you "try" to present facts your way, and I'll do them my way, with whoever/whatever proof I have.

George, sorry, you're not fooling me. Endlessly spouting the same thing over and over, especially when you know you are leaving out important facts, is one way trolling is defined! The result of trolling is that someone has to correct your misrepresentation- and then we go on and on, around and around. That's classic trolling.
If you are such an admirer of Nelson then don't make it as if he is saying something he isn't. That seems disrespectful to me at the very least.

Whatever Ralph. I'll do and say anything I feel is right, I know this sort of thing hurts your preamp sales and I'm sorry for that, but I'm not going to step around it as you would like me to.

Cheers George

Did not read this thread but here is my 2 cents.

I am going to buy the  BENCHMARK HPA4 HEADPHONE / LINE AMPLIFIER unheard and unseen (just released). I already have the Benchmark AHB2 amp. I will buy 1 more of these amps to run in mono mode, I will use this new volume control to connect to the amps which will power KEF Blade speakers. I have been trying to figure out a way to run without a preamp and this maybe the way to achieve this without relying on a DAC with a volume control..

yyzsantabarbara
I will buy 1 more of these amps to run in mono mode

Hi yyzsantabarbara, just be aware when you bridge a stereo amp into mono, yes do do gain a lot more watts, but that’s where the advantages end, and the disadvantages start.

1: There is more distortion.
2: Lower damping factor (higher output resistance) which equates to less control in the bass.
3: Less ability to drive lower impedance’s of some speakers (maybe the Kef’s 3.2ohm in the bass.)

To me if your single Ahb2 has enough watts for you to drive the Kef Blade, which aren’t that hard to drive at 3.2ohm min at 90db and a benign -phase angle, it will probably sound better than two bridged ones. If not I would look at another amp/s without doing any bridging.

Cheers George

I'll put a vote in for the Second Edition Ambrosia preamp from SST: 

https://www.sst.audio/new-products/ambrosia-2000-second-edition

This is a new and improved version of James Bongiorno's first edition Ambrosia. James always believed in giving the customer a lot of functionality at a reasonable price. This preamp has tone controls, MC and MM phono inputs with low cut filters, tape loops, headphone jacks, many inputs, and now a home theater bypass input!
The volume control has 96 steps, 1db/step and there is a remote control with a big volume control knob. 
I've been running the Ambrosia Second Edition for a few weeks now and I am very happy with it. The preamp is very quiet. You can set a jumper in the unit to lower the gain by 14dB which helps lower your noise floor. This is good for people like myself who don't play loud. 
Check it out. 

$15,000.00!

“The result of trolling is that someone has to correct your misrepresentation- and then we go on and on, around and around. That's classic trolling.”

george, you’re clearly a knowledgeable person and have a lot to contribute and can obviouly say whatever you want but this sort of behavior tends to damage your credibility, if you actually care. You accuse others with a vast technical experience in the field for expressing their opinion for personal gains and one could argue the same for your opinion and your passive attenuators. Not a productive approach to exchange knowledge. And no, I’m not stalking you, just seem to keep running into the same thread and reading the same arguments.