Back to the original question: speakers AYON DRAGON-S
How i can make that speaker a little "faster" or more dynamic ?
Does some sort of spikes will help to move the sound in the direction of faster ?
Are any other method maybe help here like the vertical angle of the speaker?
An experiences or suggestions ? Well, once again we have an OP who poses a question with far-reaching ramifications with a minimum of information on salient factors, which touches off a flurry of responses touting a wide variety of suggestions, theories, and solutions with no further response or clarification from the OP. And I was so eager to dispense my brand of "wisdom" that I didn't even notice the speakers in question: Ayon Dragon-S, a 132-lb full-range floorstander with a ring radiator tweeter with response out to 40K, claimed sensitivity of 94.5dB, and a retail price around $36K/pair. Yet the OP wants more speed and dynamics? One would think you'd get that for $36K, especially with that treble extension and sensitivity. So at this point unless the Ayon Dragon-S is an overpriced dog (which I doubt), then it seems that just about everything else must be wrong with this setup--room size, speaker positioning, speaker platforming (or spiking or whatever), cabling, electronics, room treatments, you-name it. The thing is, the OP posed this scenario and walked away, leaving us to vainly chase our tails. I'm not playing anymore unless the OP returns and clarifies. |
Isn't that part of the typical frequency response measurement? |
For example, since human frequency response disappears at around 20 Khz, many think that any engineering to widen the bandwidth out to 100-150 Khz is an unnecessary expense. In my case, I do hear, or at least am aware of frequencies above 20 kHz. I can't tolerate the resonance of a metal dome tweeter. That usually seems to happen above that 20 kHz limit used. I've had to leave a room at audio demonstrations on numerous occasions. They all had metal dome tweeters, when I found out afterward. |
08-27-12: Inpepinnovations
Thanks Al, I guess all that process control math (Laplace transforms etc.) has conditioned me (I have a Chemical Engineering degree)to only think in the frequency domain. :)
And that, I think, is where some of the communication breakdowns occur in discussions of audio. So many of the audio tests are oriented toward *sound* and fundamental audiology irrespective of musical values such as timing and expressiveness. For example, since human frequency response disappears at around 20 Khz, many think that any engineering to widen the bandwidth out to 100-150 Khz is an unnecessary expense. But if you examine square wave response along with frequency response curves, you find that bandwidth (a frequency consideration) affects risetime (a timing and clarity consideration). Another thing I've noticed is that there are often measurements of amplitude range (e.g., s/n ratio, headroom, sensitivity, power handling), but not measurements of amplitude *resolution*--how small the increments of source amplitude can be resolved. This translates into the musical values of expression and nuance. |
Thanks Al, I guess all that process control math (Laplace transforms etc.) has conditioned me (I have a Chemical Engineering degree)to only think in the frequency domain. :)
Salut, Bob P. |
Inpep, both statements about what constitutes a square wave are correct. Your statement is expressed from the perspective of what is referred to as the frequency domain, and mine was expressed from the perspective of the time domain. Regards, -- Al |
Almarg, isn't that a common misconception of what a square wave is? - 'A square wave is just a series of alternating positive and negative steps, with some amount of time between them.'
I always thought that a square wave was actually a sine wave with many higher harmonics added to the base sine wave, thus creating a continuous 'square wave'. Passing one of these square waves through a speaker intact is a test of the large bandwith of the speaker and its response time. |
08-26-12: Unsound
Keep in mind that the Quads that can produce a credible square wave do so due to the concentric wiring that disperses the wave form in a timely manner.
... and that's what's demonstrated by good step response. Perfect step response shows one impulse that then slopes down uniformly as the sound decays. Scroll down on this page for the step response of the Quad ESL-2805, followed by its square wave response. Now here are measurements for the Dunlavy Signature SC VI, an all-dynamic loudspeaker. Notice how similar its step response is to the Quad. For contrast, here's the measurements page for the highly regarded Revel Ultima Salon 2. Notice what a convoluted mess it is, and this is more typical of step responses of multi-way dynamic loudspeakers. Even the Wilson Maxx doesn't do that kind of step response. I think at a minimum it requires all drivers to be in phase and nothing but first order crossovers (6 dB per octave). Other examples of good step response: Thiel SC-4 and Vandersteen Model Seven. |
Keep in mind that the Quads that can produce a credible square wave do so due to the concentric wiring that disperses the wave form in a timely manner. |
Is there a correlation between a speaker's step response and its square wave response? Sure. A square wave is just a series of alternating positive and negative steps, with some amount of time between them. Of course, how good or bad the responses will look when graphed on paper depends on the time scale of the graph, the risetime and falltime of the input signal, the frequency of the square wave, and also the amplitude of the signal (since distortion can be expected to worsen at high volume levels). I think that the references to electrostatic speakers provide useful insight, since good electrostatics are known for their "speed." And what makes that possible is the ability of their diaphragm to start moving and stop moving quickly and cleanly, and the fact that their outputs at all frequencies (within some overall bandwidth) are generated by the same diaphragm and therefore combine coherently (i.e., with minimal timing error). That is all reflected in what I would refer to as clean transient response, which essentially amounts to good step response and/or square wave response. Clean transient response does not NECESSARILY mean that the response of the speaker and the rest of the system has to be ultra-fast in terms of bandwidth, because the bandwidth of our ears is limited. And if not handled carefully, very wide bandwidth in electronic components can result in overshoot and ringing in the step response, as well as increased RFI sensitivity. As I see it, what clean transient response means, basically, is that the response has to follow a rapidly changing input accurately. And as others have indicated, the amplifier and other electronics in the chain can certainly be significant factors as well. Particularly if the amplifier uses relatively large amounts of negative feedback, which can cause Transient Intermodulation Distortion (TIM), resulting in messy step response. As others have asked, it would be helpful for you to let us know as much as possible about the rest of the system, especially what amplifier you are using, and also a general description of the room, speaker placement, and listening position. Regards, -- Al |
08-25-12: Unsound
Some other speakers that can produce a credible square wave include: Ohms with genuine Walsh drivers, Dunlavy's, Green Moutains, Thiels, Vandersteens, perhaps others too.
I've seen excellent step responses in Stereophile test reports of phase-correct speakers by Dunlavy, Thiel, and Vandersteen) Is there a correlation between a speaker's step response and its square wave response? |
Some other speakers that can produce a credible square wave include: Ohms with genuine Walsh drivers, Dunlavy's, Green Moutains, Thiels, Vandersteens, perhaps others too. |
08-24-12: Unsound
There are a few other speakers that can produce a "credible square wave".
I should have said "The only speaker I know of offhand that can produce a credible square wave..." Since it's the only one I know of, I'm interested in other products that do it--I wouldn't be too surprised if other full-range electrostats could do it such as Soundlab, Martin-Logan, and Sound King. |
I haven't heard your speakers to have an opinion on their sound. But, try toeing them in to align with your ears. Then move them in and out to see if that helps any, and still gives a good sound stage.
Another thing I noticed from viewing their pictures and dimensions, the midrange and tweeters seem high. When you are sitting, you may be too low, and in alignment with the woofers. That can sure cause a problem. Please try this seat height test. Pillows, or whatever will get you there.
Try raising your seat height so your ears are more horizontally even with the midrange and tweeter height. If your ears are at this (midrange tweeter) height instead of the woofers height, I imagine they'd sound more toward what your seeking. They may sound more accurate too.
I don't know if they supplied any info for setting them up. If you tilt them forward to try to get that same alignment, they may be at risk of falling forward. This could be dangerous for people, and ruin your speakers fast too. Raising the seat seems more reasonable, if this is the problem. |
There are a few other speakers that can produce a "credible square wave". |
Every component in the signal chain has a rise time. The longer the rise time, the slower the signal transfer. It's true that there are faster components, amplifiers and interconnects, but all of them are way faster than speakers because they are only subject to bandwidth issues whereas speakers are also subject to physics--mass acceleration and deceleration.
Very fast components and cabling can improve the sense of speed somewhat. For example, if you have ultrawide bandwidth components (such as Spectral) with cabling to match, you *will* hear an improvement in speed and clarity. Better speaker seating and platforming helps too. But ultimately the speed is limited by the speakers. The acceleration of speaker cones is much slower than electronic signals. So far the only speaker that can produce a credible square wave (which is primarily dependent on rise time and controlled ringing/overshoot) is the Quad electrostatic.
Still, many new speakers use very light and responsive diaphragms with much more powerful magnets to improve speed. Also, an increasing number of tweeters are very fast, with beryllium deposit, plasma, or ribbon tweeters with frequency response out to 40-60KHz (indicative of excellent rise time).
The price of fast speakers has come down considerably. Consider the GoldenEar products that use a folded ribbon tweeter and a very fast cone midrange, priced from $800-3K/pair, and the Monitor Audio Silver series with CCAM (composite ceramic aluminum magnesium) drivers and the Gold series with ribbon tweeters. The newer speakers with lighter drivers and more powerful magnets will do more to impart speed than an upstream upgrade. |
Look for time and phase correct speaker designs along with a preamplifier and / or subwoofer that have the ability to change phase.
I don't know why but the phase on recordings can change from track to track. It's usually most noticeable with the bass drum. |
As my Canadian friends might say; "Too fast and you might lose details, a?":-) |
With this description, the only power amp that comes to mind is one that uses bipolar output transistors, instead of mosfet outputs. |
Speed, attack, dynamics, pratt... what ever you want to call it, is a function of the amplifier. No doubt tight clean bass helps with the impression of speed, but overall its the amp. |
Speed is not just a speaker thing, it's a system thing and if the system sounds fast it probably isn't fast. A fast system should be able to accurately track the music. |
You may be experiencing dynamic compression. The louder the system the more the sound may tend to smear. On better systems, short of running out of amplifier power the sound will just get louder.
Subjectively, too much bass response will tend to make a system sound slower. You may consider adjusting speake location to get a better balance. |
Faster and more dynamic? Get new speakers. |
You do it with the right amplifier. |
If you want the sound to arrive sooner, sit closer to the speakers.
But seriously, what is your amplification? |
One of my basic and intro stereos consisted of Creek amp and Vandy 1c speakers that was very slow and didn't last long. When I replaced Creek by Bryston 3b the spead increased gazillion times. |
Buy faster sounding speakers. I am being quite sincere when I say that, although the Ayon speakers have the outward appearance of a quick speaker.
As an intermediate measure, you might want to try setting them on spikes as this tends to clear up the sound a bit.
You may be confusing dynamic with speed , but a highly dynamic speaker is generally very fast as well. Dyunamic range is a different matter altogether. This is where a speaker can transition from low level sound to much louder sound.
I don't know your speaker personally, but I strongly recommend trying to find one you think hast the speed and dynamics you like. |
I agree with Larry. There are many variables.
You could try replacing the stuffing with Black Hole 5, which sometimes will tighten things up. Maybe adding a .1 uF teflon bypass cap to the tweeter crossover caps. Maybe it's your amp that is sluggish. Maybe room treatments. |
Play 33rpm record with 45rpm speed. |
I don't think there is any "answer" that would be universally applicable, so, any suggestion must come with a caveat that one must accept trial and error as the only means to improving dynamics and the perception of speed.
Speakers tend to sound sluggish if the bass response/balance is off. If the bass is booming and slow to decay, the whole presentation will sound slow. You can only reliably find the right speaker location by experimenting. The further away from the wall behind the speaker and the walls on the side, the less likely that bass would be too prominent and booming, but, at any distance, there are numerous nodes, so correct placement is literally a matter of fractions of an inch. You could just try many different locations, or you could be more systematic by using a particular methodology. For getting the right bass response, Google the "Sumiko" method of speaker placement.
The next most important consideration is room acoustics/treatment. Bass response is NOT very easy to correct without major alterations or really big treatment items, such as bass traps, so this should be considered as secondary to extensive experimentation with correct placement.
The proper use of spikes or other kinds of couplers is also quite important to cleaning up "muddy" sound that makes speakers sound slow and undynamic. But, again, the correct treatment can only be determined by some experimentation. Cones try to couple the speaker firmly to the floor. This can reduce or alter the way the whole speaker is vibrating, and thereby make the sound less muddy and slow, or it can actually exacerbate the problem. Generally speaking, if the speaker can be coupled by the cones to a very solid and hard floor (e.g., flooring on concrete slab), cones can be a help. But, if your flooring is suspended and less solid, cones can transfer energy directly from the speaker to a floor that will act as a sounding board and this will make the sound more muddled, boomy and slow. For what you are trying to do, I generally find cones to be the less effective approach than using some kind of "absorbing" approach. I use Symposium "Svelte Shelves" under my floorstanding speakers. These are placed directly against the bottom of the speaker cabinet (no footers) to get maximum area of contact in order to transfer as much vibrational energy as possible to the shelf; the inner core of the shelf has some kind of rubber that effectively dissipates the vibrational energy as heat. I find that this is the best way to tighten up the sound, and make the bass more punchy (less overhang).
By all means experiment with the back tilt of the speaker. This too affects tonal balance and can help to make the speaker sound more lively and dynamic. You should also experiment with toe-in (how directly the speaker points at the listening spot).
I find that speaker cables can make a substantial difference in tonal balance. A set of cables that is leaner sounding (less bass) will make your speakers sound more dynamic. Some brands, such as Nordost, tend toward such a leaner, faster and more detailed sound.
In all of your experimentation, don't become so focused on this particular goal that you sacrifice everything else. It is WAY too easy to go overboard and end up with a too lean, aggressive and harsh sound. |
