I have recently got out my dad's old Thorens TT (TD 150 MKII) and listened to some of his old classical LP's. I think that it is a warmer sound than CD but I can't get passed all the noise. I asked my Dad and he said it always sounded that way. Am I doing something wrong? Do you just ignore the hiss and pops? Thanks in advance.
Sol322 . I know you meant well but these types of smart aleck, alcoholic comments only serve to further exacerbate the problem. As you can tell by now.
Ease up guys relax!!!!!! How do you get past hiss and pops??
Well you can try having a Boa constrictor near by for the hiss to be common and train your ears to it... the pop well why not do the same with a corn poper pot in the kitchen.......
At first you fell in love with music then you'd like to improve the experience and then it gets complicated.....
Sometimes is hard to stay in topic isn't it.... go back to the music and enjoy
Hey Guys, this is some pretty funny stuff. I posted on this thread back on 6/18. Back then we were talking about records and turntables. I came back after six days and it's like a blood bath.
Records are cool. Been listening to em' for 35 years. But, don't kid yourselves, digital is coming into it's own. And I now often find myself listening to my CD rig more often than my analog rig.
At the least, be willing to accept both formats for whatever their virtues may be. And they both have their goods and bads. Keep an open mind.
Your mind is like a parachute. It only works when it's open.
well said Rich, I agree with you, I just get tired of some people who misquote others so they can try to justify their opinions. Sorry for the unprofessionalism on my part.
My comments still stand. There was no forwarding reason to refer to those who prefer CD's as "losers" and "lazy clones.' And it is hardly about "fear of the light " ... I just decided differently and your response is name calling. Enjoy the music and the equipment ... save the noble causes for those who are truly noble.
As a strong proponent of analog, who can also recognize the value of CD's in some cases, I can only say that I am reminded of this phrase when reading your posts Rockin, "with friends like this, who needs enemies?"
Why do so many of these threads spiral down into name calling? I maintain that many a barb is tossed out here that would not be dared, eye-to-eye, across the table. From BOTH sides on the issue.
There is no right or wrong, here. You like what you like. A person can say why they like analog better than CD or CD better than analog. And we can agree to disagree. Does this make any of us “bad guys” or in need of “saving”? If I were a moderator (are there any here?), I’d close and delete this thread.
Jim nice post, but alas your information has fallen on deaf ears. You will notice Twl and others have not even bothered to engage these lost souls.
Rich nice of you to finally chime in with your two cents
"Why not just say ... 'our mothers are ugly' ... as well? Thanks for elevating the level of the discussion."
Now that second post of yours has really helped this discussion. Thanks, because your first post was obliviously from the point of view of someone whom has given up on lp playback. This is an example of the kind of audiophile to whom I referred to from time to time in my other posts. It did not even merit a response.
At first you try to help, but when you see the people whom you are trying to guide to the light fear the light, and are not of the light,then I no longer am willing to flog a dead horse.
Kevin- In addition to what has already been said about cleaning records, aligning the cartridge and maybe upgrading your table/cartridge, a DBX 3BX running through the tape loop would yeild pretty good results with your current table/cartridge noise issue. If you upgrade, the 3BX becomes less of a factor as the noise floor of the upgraded table/cartridge drops.
Also, as someone mentioned earlier, there were several "tick & pop" eliminators manufactured such as the Burwin TNE 7000 and a couple of models from SAE. Again, if you upgrade, there won't be much of a need for this kind of signal processing. (My TNE has been in storage for 15 years, but I still have occasion to use the 3BX.)
And, much as I fear weighing in on the LP vs CD lunacy, it's notable that, from a strictly sonic (the music only) standpoint, most "experts", including CDP makers, have concluded that analog sounds better. (Many CDP makers strive to sound like analog and claim their product "sounds almost like analog" while exactly zero turntable makers attempt to "sound almost like digital".) I suspect alot of folks take issue with this fact because they mistakenly think that "sounds better" is an all-encompassing phrase which means that "analog is always better at anything and everything all the time" which, of course, is not true.
LP's are more work and they are not as convenient to play as CD's. And, if one prefers to listen to numbers on a page(something I gave up doing 20 years ago), CD's can sometimes have a "better" S/N ratio and dynamic range. CD's can also sometimes be quieter between tracks or in quieter passages. CD's don't have "ticks and pops". CD's are getting better. Etc, etc, etc. (BTW- Analog is getting better, too- ALOT better.)
Obviously, many have had great experiences with analog and find it to be worth the effort. Your mileage may vary. If you need help, there are alot of very knowledgeable folks here for you.
And, yes, for the record, I do have a fairly good CDP and a whole bunch of CDs that I listen to and enjoy frequently.
Veridian, yes, but I am talking about actual measurements and what the recording industry is (or has) actually done with the "theoretical limits". It is much easier to exploit the CD limits than the LP limits, hence the LP's contain less dynamic range as witnessed by my measurements. I might be off by 2-3Db, but that doesn't invalidate my findings. I still love my record collection, it is just different from my CD's, not necesarily better.
Viridian, I have a better idea of what you mean by dynamic range and signal to noise ratio, but even accepting that definition does not yield more than about 80db range for vinyl, while CD has at least 100db. And these figures I have measured using LP's and CDs. The direct to disc recordings (organ) has about 80db. BTW its surface noise is at about -70db. Pinned the needles at +10db!
Boy, you are some piece of work! So, your signoff is that people who prefer CD's are "losers" and "lazy clones." Why not just say ... 'our mothers are ugly' ... as well? Thanks for elevating the level of the discussion.
I will clear this up for you. If you read my posts you will find out I said;
"You do not have to spend a fortune to get good analog sound, that is mostly free of noise (pops & clicks). A used Systemdeck and a atcoc9 with a Rega arm will sound fantastic ($700 range). There are many sub 1k rigs that will get you most of the way there." Like the rig you have,inpepin.
Anyway this thread is going in the trash. So I will sum it up for you losers and say it plain. lp's rule and have more fidelity even with a pop here and a click there. cd's suck!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
cd's are for lazy clones that are willing to settle for pasteurized music. A Fact some are not willing to explore or admit. The only thing they lose is the music, to bad so sad.
This will greatly reduce or elimimate clicks and pops if the record is not scratched or damaged by incorrect cartridge alignment. Eevn if the record is not mint it will sound a lot better after cleaning with a RCM and a cartridge that will reduce surface noise, once you have done these thing you will then understand why LP's sound way better than CD's.
Rockinroni...Shure my Shure finds lots of LF on LPs (my subwoofers are flat to 20 HZ). What I said was that these LF sounds are monophonic because of the way LP's are mastered so as to enable "entry level" pickups to play them. This is not necessarily bad, but it is different from digital sources where there is no reason to blend LF. Being different they will sound different. Better or worse is an opinion.
I agree with you that a good LP played with a good pickup and (as sean says) a linear tracking arm can sound really good. Problem is that when the music gets quiet that surface noise intrudes.
Rockinroni said, "Your rig is entry level, you will not be able to retrieve the lower 2 or 3 octaves on this turntable." If the lowest octave is 20-40Hz, then the turntable in question can't retrieve info any lower than 80-160Hz. Roni was being kind, if a component can't reproduce anything from the upper bass downward then it's not a true hi-fi component let alone entry level high end. Thanks for clearing things up, Roni.
Viridian, agreed. However, even though dynamic range is an engineering choice, the choices are still limited by the medium and technology. There is a wider dynamic range available with digital than vinyl.
Rockinroni, if I recall correctly, you said that even an entry level system will outplay a CD system. So why doesn't my so called entry system not outplay my CD system? Because it has nothing to do with the playback system - it is more a question of taste. Just don't try to justify your subjective taste (a redundancy of course, taste is always subjective) with objective reasons.
I thouroughly enjoy my vinyl playback system and the quality of sound is wonderful, if the recording is good. I also enjoy my CD playback system and the quality of sound is wonderful, if the recording is good. The differences between the two are not greater than the differences in different concert halls or the orchestras playing in them. Some halls are quieter (along with the audiences) than others, but I do prefer the quieter ones.
As to the original poster's query, do as others have suggested, ignore the shortcomings of vinyl (noise etc.) and if you can't, play CDs. Of course my advice to those who wonder what to do about the shortcomings of CDs (lack of life etc.) is to ignore that and if you can't, play vinyl.
Until you reach a certain level of digital playback quality using redbook cd's, a very reasonable vinyl system with records that have been cleaned and taken care of will provide a far higher level of liquidity, transient response, separation of notes & instruments and proper tonal balance. While the CD may win several categories in terms of "absolutes", the LP wins in most categories in terms of "natural presentation". If your results with LP differ from what i've stated here, chances are, you were using gear that was pretty horribly designed, pretty horribly set-up or a combo of the two.
Several people were completely blown away when they heard how good a $150 direct drive linear tracking turntable that came complete with a "reasonable" MM cartridge off of Ebay could sound when teamed with a good quality but used $200 preamp with built in phono section. After hearing a system that i put together for a friend, the same comment of "I don't remember records ever sounding this good" was repeated by two different people at two different listening sessions. These were the first words out of their mouths after hearing less than one full song. All of this with records that had never seen a VPI, Nitty Gritty or Sota record cleaning machine.
Part of the reason for this is that Linear trackers will place the stylus in different areas of the groove than a pivoted arm will. One can take worn LP's that are somewhat "noisy" on a standard pivoted design and play them on a Linear tracking design and instantly drop the noise floor quite noticeably. Obviously, the shape of the stylus being used has something to do with this, but the fact that tracking error is reduced and the cartridge now rides more uniformly in the center of groove has GREAT benefits. Sean >
inpepinnovations@aol.com Your rig is entry level, you will not be able to retrieve the lower 2 or 3 octaves on this turntable combo + a lot of other music. I have not used a BPS, many like this budget cartridge. We talked about this LP noise problem some people have, a while back, and one of the fellows that was complaining about lp noise was using a BPS. " Remember I said;
"The low frequencies are the hardest to trace for the cartridge and track for the arm. It takes a superior combo to dig the information out of those groves. Twl's moded Origin Live silver arm and a Shelter 501 cartridge (Retail is $1,600) with the hi fi mod increases the low end with at least another octave"
Eldartford "Rockinroni...Perhaps your phono pickup could track LF vertical modulation of an LP groove, but there isn't any because the recording engineer was producing the LP for people with ordinary playback equipment."
Eldartford I think you will have to take my word for it. I Can now, get tons of LF, bigtime! The Origin live arm is reported to be one of the best arms right now and Twl's mod alone got me another octave. I personally have heard it this. It is not a point of view, it is fact. A lot of lp's have great bass.
ePbb,"xcept when the planets align and the moon is holding water, he will always hear surface noise from lps, if it is not present when the record is brand spanking new, he just has to wait and eventually the surface noise will be audible" This statement is misleading because you will not "Always" hear noise. I and others here have stated we hear little or no noise from most lp's we have, many of my LP's are 30 years and older. What has been stated here is (and not very clearly) on a 70's technology turntable you will hear a lot of noise. On a modern high end, properly setup analog rig you will not. .
Unsound "Is it so hard to understand that different individuals have different priorities and different prejudices?"
Also and more to the point, people have there opinions biased upon their experiences. All have had different experiences that is why we have different opinions. If those who differ with me could hear what I listen to. I believe we would have the same opinion.
Pbb, as you nearly always do, you misquote what someone else has said. NOWHERE did I say that the original poster would have to get used to anything, except to maybe infer that he'd quickly get used to NOT listening to CD's! :-)
As for the “you say tomato, I say tomatoe garbage”, your posts on the site are absolutely littered with smart-ass and condescending remarks disparaging vinyl and those that enjoy vinyl, as anyone who has been here longer than 30 minutes can attest. So, please, don't give any of us this "can’t we all get along" noise.
Finally, you can consider yourself most fortunate for the anonymous nature of these websites in light of your "Motdaturd" crack. Grow up.
Kemp, another thing occured to me. There is a product for sale through several of the companies which sell new vinyl. Try www.amusicdirect.com It is called 'Premier' and it works great for cleaning old, and seemingly abused LPs. I have been using it for a few weeks along with a Sota record cleaner and the results have been very good. I'm concerned that some of the LPs you have are probably damaged, and will never sound new again, but this stuff has worked very well for me on some really grungy LPs. Good luck!
Elizabeth, thanks for adding the voice of reason!!! As long as each of us is convinced we own and use the perfect medium what difference does it make what anyone else thinks. Of course only half of us are right.
Motdaturd, seems your apologies are not addressed to the right person. Every fact that ever there was is tortured by subjective audiophiles, be they vinylists or proponents of digital, to the point of being unrecognizable. As I have said and repeated: you eat what you like and I'll eat what I like, don't tell me it's chocolate if it's Ex Lax. The original poster says he hears the noise and appears not to like it. I can only tell him that, except when the planets align and the moon is holding water, he will always hear surface noise from lps, if it is not present when the record is brand spanking new, he just has to wait and eventually the surface noise will be audible. Telling him to learn to like such noise is disingenuous at best.
Rockinroni...Perhaps your phono pickup could track LF vertical modulation of an LP groove, but there isn't any because the recording engineer was producing the LP for people with ordinary playback equipment.
Frankly, listening 15 to 20 dB into noise gives me a headache.
Rockinroni, "this is bass that a CD player cannot match"! Please! If only that supposedly added octave in the bass were there to be retrieved. Not usually! I have played back on my vinyl play back system direct to disc organ recordings (low of 16HZ) which are quite satisfying, and still the bass is not as good as the bass through a CD. TT is Alex Mk IV with Rega arm and BPS.
I am not disputing that playback through analogue is perceived as more pleasing and satisfying, although I think that that is a matter of taste, but disputing the reasons that people are using for justifying their contention. It is not because there is more information to be retrieved on vinyl and that digital has less information.
You prefer vinyl and think that it is better. Leave it at that and stop trying to justify your preference by using objective arguments to prove a subjective point. You will have more credibility from my part anyway.
Wow, Viridian, you enjoy hearing noise that is 20db higher in level than the music?! Even adding the 20db to the average 50db range before hitting the noise floor, that gives you 70db. Don't worry I have measured several LP's for dynamic range and it is a rare disc that has more than 75db. Which is why I have found using an old Phase Linear 1000 range expander quite useful in restoring some dynamics to most LPs. Works well for FM broadcasts also.
This is the same old problem here. Someone new to analog asks a simple question. Members try to answer it as best as They can. Then some digivites start to bash analog.
That is were we are once again.
We have been down this road before. After much debate, digital and analog rigs compared worth 10s of thousands of dollars the verdict is in, lp rules. (check the archives)
The only logical conclusion one can make, if one claims the superiority of digital is that you need to listen to a good analog rig. Believe me, we have been in a place where we once wanted cd to be better, because this medium has a lot going for it. The bottom line for those us that have chosen to abandon digital for critical listening is that lp simply has more music on it, period. Plus a pop or a click once in a while, and maybe some grove noise between tracks. Many lp's play with no noise at all. The low frequencies are the hardest to trace for the cartridge and track for the arm. It takes a superior combo to dig the information out of those groves. Twl's moded Origin Live silver arm and a Shelter 501 cartridge (Retail is $1,600) with the hi fi mod increases the low end with at least another octave. This is the bass that a cd player cannot match.
You do not have to spend a fortune to get good analog sound, that is mostly free of noise(pops & clicks). A used Systemdeck and a atcoc9 with a Rega arm will sound fantastic($700 range). There are many sub 1k rigs that will get you most of the way there.
I hope this clears up some issues. When you here how great, good analog can sound and if you are willing to put in the effort required in setup,(this can be quite a lot sometimes)it is not plug in and play. You will be rewarded.
I have had many CDP's over the last 20 years and yes I've had nearly as many TT's In my own mind the upgrade was about equal each time I bought a better TT I bought a better CDP also. Right now I have about the same amount of money invested in each. The CDP and the table, arm, and cartridge retail for about $3500 each. In theory they should be of equal sound quality.
I attend concerts and hear live music regularly, and use that as the point of reference. When I listen at home to 'cleaned' records and CDs of which I have the same thing on cd, SACD, or vinyl I have yet to hear a digital recording that sounds as good as vinyl. Is my system so inferior that I cannot detect the differences? Am I just to stupid to notice that CDs really sound better? Or is it that I spent the money to buy what I consider to be a very good (and expensive) CD player, but that I'm still unwilling to give the CDP a fair chance? What am I doing wrong???
Pbb, tlak about the pot calling the kettle black. Yours is a fine example of selective logic. The original poster described noise and ASKED if he was doing something wrong and should he ignore the hiss. He did not mention if these were records that were clean or filthy, they were very old or damaged, or what kind of rig he was using to play them.
I have seen mention here of ignoring the occasional pop or tick, but not that he should ignore all noise. There are many factors that might induce noise. Cleaning the records might be a very good first step. If the records have actual damage, he might replace them with a better copy. If he is using some old record player or a decent TT with a defective or damaged stylus/cartridge, even a very modest upgrade might be of benefit. Who is to say that if he cleans and otherwise dirty record, replaces an otherwise damaged record, or plays it on a decent rig, that he will NOT hear the noise he currently does and find even better sound than the "warmer than CD" sound he also describes?
I would point out that "snap, crackle, pop" and hiss are entirely different issues. Perhaps it is more the former he is hearing and not the latter. The former can be easily addressed in most all cases, using the selective logic approaches mentioned. In my experience, hiss is generally never found as a result of the LP itself unless it is an older recording derived from noisy tape OR there is some kind of RF getting into the electronics chain of events. Nothing unique to vinyl, though. Listen to old Louis Armstrong recordings on CD. Where did all that hiss come from? The CD? Obviously not.
This brings up another point. If your CD deck lens is damaged, the CD has muck and scrapes, or you are using a Walkman as a front end, will those CD's sound great? Would it be valid for someone to post a thread wondering how such CD's sounded bad? And, would suggesting remedies in these areas constitute selective logic or an indictment of CD as a format?
As for the occasional pops and clicks. There are many recordings which I have on LP and CD and I have decent rigs to play both. The LP's nearly always win out over the CD version and, have others have said, a click here or there is outweighed by the improvement in sound. Once in awhile, to be fair, the CD in a re-mastered version will score big. When it does I can enjoy and appreciate its sound. Let us face facts, both mediums have there limitations, not the least of which is the ability of the engineers to record and transfer the masters appropriately. Along these lines, the talk of missing LF on LP's is simply a red herring. For every LP I can toss out there with missing LF, I can throw out a CD that is sterile with no dynamics.
"Making of necessity virtue is wearing thin as an argument."
I am not really sure what this means but, continual and gratuitous bashing of any one medium without objectively looking at the equally onerous shortcomings of another is also wearing very thin.
And yet, Eldartford, vinyl proponents will tell you that LP reproduction maintains more of the original music than digital recordings because they don't, for the most part, understand sampling theory and think that somehow the "heart" of the music is being removed. Wrong or inexistant bass, errors in matching the RIAA curve, distortion are not seen as losing anything - only digital loses things, in their minds.
As others (although not many on this forum) have stated, I consider the quality of the silences in music to be just as important as the sound in the music.
The best analog master tape recorders used DBX or other kinds of noise suppression, and produced results comparable to digital recorders...no hiss. But digital is a lot easier to work with when it comes to mixdown, so the world has gone digital. If you heard hiss on a CD it must have been a very early (or poor quality) master tape.
By the way, another common source of hiss is vacuum tubes. (Sorry about that).
As to LP's sounding better...I agree that they will sound different, and you may think, better. Mastering of the LP is different from the CD, and the RIAA equalization process, applied to the signal when the record is cut, and to your copy when you play it back is extreem and would be almost impossible to accomplish perfectly. Spectral balance will change. Also, in cutting LPs, it is common for LF signals (subwoofer fodder) to be mixed to monaural, because phono pickups don't do well with very low frequency vertical groove modulation. Of course this will affect the sound, and you may prefer it.
Nrchy, aren't you just discussing which part is missing on which medium? Vinyl, after all, is missing the bottom end and dynamics, while possessing (or at least recreating the "life" and mark my words the life is not being extracted from the grooves but recreated by the motion of the stylus) that poorly recorded CDs are missing. I don't know why one would want to buy an LP missing low notes and original dynamics.
I'd rather get all of the music and a little hiss from time to time rather than part of the music with a little hiss. Why is it the CDophiles are willing to pay full price for part of the product???
I bought a couple of new LPs this week and was listening to one of them yesterday. There was no hiss at all and only one minor 'pop' during everything I listetned to, but there sure was music. I have this same recording on a SBM CD and it sounds lifeless by direct comparison.
Listening to CD is like having a loved one on lifesupport but consoling ones self with the knowledge that they are still there.
TWL and co: talk about selective logic. All this dubious stuff about hearing through LP playback noise or that the noise is in another plane and does not take away from the enjoyment of the recording. What you had to begin with is a candid question by someone who was taken aback by the surface noise of vinyl reproduction. All the usual responses: the discs require cleaning with an expensive machine, the cart is not good enough, the arm is not good enough, the preamp is not good enough, the table is not good enough, the VTA is wrong, the whole set-up is wrong, you need to "invest" in very expensive equipment, you need to retrain your ear to a new and better paradigm and so on. A simple question was asked, and all that is provided is the doctrinaire view on the superiority of vinyl. Has anyone asked what type of music the original poster listens to? Seems to me that listening mainly to rock or metal, the noise issue is not much of a concern. Any music where silence is an integral part and the noise is clearly audible. If audio is a subjective thing, is the original poster's concern about surface noise not a valid consideration? Maybe telling him that if sounds bad to his ears, it is bad is a better subjective audio response that trying to convince him that (a) it's not there and (b) whatever noise is there should be ignored. Making of necessity virtue is wearing thin as an argument.
How come the vinyl lovers are all able to "tune-out" (pun intended) the little noises contained on the medium to enjoy the music, but are unable to "tune-out" the lack of information (so called) on CD to enjoy the music? Whose internal filter is wrong?
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