!0 years ago i was in the exact same boat.I put almost all my money into the speakers(B+W matrix 801s series 3).I have never regreted doing it that way and would still do it the same way.Incidently I still have the 801's but now with a highend front end.With each improvement I got to rediscover all my cds all over again.I had alot of enjoyment doing it this way.Now I have bryston sst amps,bryston preamp with dac etc..The speaker does still make the single biggest difference in the sound of reproduced music....goodluck.. |
I'm with Dennis_The_Menace, with minor reservations.
With the great older speakers out there, you needn't spend a lot on speakers. Also, new midfy front ends are closing in on hify performance.
Virgil, you may be correct that $2000 amp upgrades will not buy musical bliss, but with the advent of the new CLASS D amps burgeoning onto the scene, $2000 into new amps will go a LONG way into improving your system's sound. In fact, it most probably will be all you need to spend on amps.
I have $1500 in glorious used speakers (Apogee Scintilla) that defy modern speaker attempts to equal. Added to those, $1000 in a wonderful transport/DAC front end (Liteon DVDROM/Audio NoteDAC). Most importantly, I put $3000 into mono blocks (H2O ICE powered class D), and that took my system into a stunning new universe of sound reproduction parameters.
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At CES 2004, Dave Wilson was trying to answer this age-old question in a creative new way - he set up a pair of $16,000 competitor's speakers powered by Krell electronics and driven by a very high end ($20k+) transport system.
He secretly drove his $11,000 Sofia's with an iPod, a $1,000 amp and Radio Shack cables. All who listened said the Sofia's blew the other speakers away.
His message: If you have $15,000 to spend on a system, pay $11,000 for speakers (his, of course), use your existing electronics (if possible) or buy modestly priced, quality gear. Speakers make the biggest difference.
Whether you agree or not, I think he showed some guts doing this. |
I don't think this took any guts. He was obviously able to choose the other products and make the comparison BEFORE the show.
Richard |
Dr Diamond: Regardless of how Dave Wilson was able to "beat" the mega-dollar system, the fact that he did so says a lot about what one can do with a little bit of money and a lot of know-how when it comes to electronics. I've been trying to stress much the same point here for years. Sean
> |
I`m not going to tell what to spend speakers, amps, linestage, source, I will tell my experiance in the upgrade path. I probably would have saved many thousand`s of dollar`s if I would have purchased the one`s I really wanted in the begining rather than one`s I thought I could afford. But that`s the story of my life BUY HIGH SELL LOW oh well. David |
As much as you can afford, plus 15%!!! |
Sean,
I was just responding to the statement prior to mine, saying that it took "guts" for Dave Wilson to put on the demo.
I completely agree with you about "know how vs. the dollars spent."
I personnally altered my speakers according to instructions by someone far smarter than I. They now, in my opinion will beat out speakers costing five times as much. I also purchased an SACD player that, when tweeked, far beat out CD players costing more that two or three times as much.
Richard |
lots of different points of view on here bout the way things should be...its hard to make up your mind reading it all.
this is what i did
i'd narrow your field of searching by finding out what particualar brands suit the music you listen to first off.
first off i chose an amp in my price range that suited my music i listen to(fast pace-toe tapping and plenty of head room for detail and bottom end and also volume ect)...i also like NO features real basic....i feel an amplifier is the HEART of the rig.
then the speakers...i wanted a monitor pair because they are more accurate for music to me( a sub may come later).....again find a pair that deal with rock music not classical(my preference)...do i want my speakers to calm my amp down or stay foward>? i choose to stay FOWARD!..i found a nice pair made by the same manufactor as my amp so i was lucky...i liked the sound,they were punchy detailed ect ect...
now i got a cd player that wasnt expensive but had reaped many many awards as a top shelf budget player....i chose one that was just a tad layed back than the rest of the system,jus to add warmth ect.........
added some cables...IC'S were $160 each..took a whle to find a matched cable...every thing but nordost made my rig sound like the tone knob was set fully anticlockwise..
so the price of my speakers and amp were the same and the cd player was a bit cheaper....
i would like to see what a nicer CDP would sound like running in this rig......
this hobby gets addicting and seems to take all my time up..i dont think it'll ever end either |
(In my opinion) They are the most crucial component for the sound you will achieve.
Next piece of advice is to get used components and speakers.
First, as mentioned above, go listen, listen, listen, to as many high-rated speakers to find out what sound pleases YOU with the music you like. Take your own music so you can compare speakers with music your used to and know well.
People who buy high-end equipment tend to take care of their stuff, and speakers don't have much wear issues if not overdriven.
When you know what you like, start saving, because it's still going to cost more than you want to spend. That's the nature of the beast.
Have fun. The joy of anticipation and seeking knowledge is priceless. Enjoy the journey as well as the destination.
You might consider a kit like the Linkwitz Orion's or some other serious home-built speaker system as well.
My original point was the difference between electronic components doesn't take much to get into diminishing returns for additional dollars, but you won't be happy unless you know the speakers you buy are your favorites in your price range. They may be the most similar sounding to your favorite money-is-no-object speaker.
Frank |
Biro speakers, best buy for the money, period. |
Determine your budget and double it. Nice try swampwalker! |
Hi George, welcome to posting on Audiogon. From your other posts, you are obviously a fan of Biro speakers -- I assume you're not affiliated with the company. Could you share your impressions compared to other speakers and perhaps tell us how you determined what to spend on speakers vs. other components? Thanks. |
Hi there,
I am not affiliated with any company, just another music/audio junkie. I flew to Minn. to visit with Frank Van Alstine and listened for two days to various equipement that he makes by hand right in his house. I do own some of his stuff from years past when he recommended B&W speakers. He now doesn't and lets you listen to the Biro's next to the B&W's. The Biro's actually sound better, clearer, tighter etc... It is amazing that for $1,600 you can have that kind of sound and for $1,500 more you can ad the sub-woofer. If you think you can get better sound quality than his equipement for the $$$, you are not correct!
I have compared the Biro's without the sub to my Snell mk-2, c's and xa60's. I can get more base out of the xa's and the c's , however, the overall sound is not as good, I was shocked! If you ar looking for speakers and have quality electronics, consider van alstine as apposed to the mass marketed, then get the Biro's!! |
Thinking back over 35 years of enjoying recorded and live music, I still find that the speakers are the single most important component--provided that one is talking about half-way decent components (say $500+ each).
Next in importance is the room: if you've ever been to a well-set-up recording studio, even a modest one, you'll know what I mean. The pros typically spend as much or more on room treatments than on components. The pay-off is awesome.
I spend 40-45% of my budget on the speakers, 45-50% on amplification and disc player and maybe 5% on cabling. Now I also use LP and listen to FM so there's additional component costs that I'm not including here.
So. . .if someone handed me $20K tomorrow and said it was mine--but only to use on upgrading one of my audio systems--I'd probably spend $1-2K on an extreme upgrade to my digital front end, but with the rest I'd buy the speakers I can't afford right now. |
Engagement ring money...but get the prenuptial done so you get to keep the speakers! |
Czik=Newbee; i've heard a NAD-Lynn chain the other day for 1 1/2k and honestly i was blown-away. I've got all that heavy-metal-crap for zig-thousands at home and here comes someone that does it for less than 20% ( cd-player and integrated amp from NAD / speakers and TT from Lynn (sondek). If your not runnig it at insane levels ... 2x35W thru minimalistic electronics in a 250sf scarcely furnished room : utterly detailed, wonderful soundstage, not overweight at any Hz, a thoruoghly enjoyable listening experience for hours! Go for it. |
First, decide on what YOU like to listen to and then scour the magazines out there (all of them) to help narrow down your choice on speakers. Speakers first, don't forget. Don't rush into this. Let the hype direct you but trust your ears: listen carefully, as long as permitted, with music you are familiar with. Don't deal with someone who won't let you listen and never feel compelled to buy based on pressure. The good ones are used to seeing the earnest ones come back. Check out the latest issue of Absolute Sound and read the article entitiled "Steak and Lobster on a Spam budget'. Good way to start. In fact, I, myself might buy the amp or pre-amp made by TAD (mentioned in the article). Be wary of 'sonic jewelry': there's tons of mark-up in this industry and alot of those glossy ads underwrite the sales of those mags and therefore get favorable reviews. If you can, talk to someone who's been around in the industry (20-40 years) and glean what you can from them (eg: Pierre @ mapleshaderecords.com or Paul @tubeaudiodesigns.com.). There's a reason why there's so much buying and selling of used, high-end audio gear (your reason here). Good luck. |
Krayzeeyk, this thread is getting close to 3 years old. Just curious: Have you purchased a system? How is it working out? |
This is a good question to which I don't think there is a firm answer, as you can tell by the myriad of responses here. The question is basically: "which components contribute the most to the quality of sound reproduction?", since it would stand to reason that one should sink the largest sum of money there. I was initially told by my local audio retailer that the most important part of the audio chain is the source (i.e. the CD or DVD player), since the rest of the system can, at best, only reproduce exactly what this component puts out. The argument was to allocate money to buy the best CD or DVD player, followed by the preamp/amp, and lastly the speakers (i.e. that the order of importance parallells the flow of the signal, since at each step the performance of that component is limited by what is upstream). While this is probably true, in reality, the MARGINAL difference from spending an extra $1000 on a CD player may not be the same as another component (say, a speaker).If there is a component that is onviously lesser in quality than the rest of the system, I'd say the money should be spent upgrading that component (i.e.-- "the chain is only as strong as the weakest link" theory). However, assuming you have a system where basically all the components & speakers are of relatively comparable (and reasonably good)quality, I'd agree that upgrading the speakers will have the largest effect on the sound, followed by the source components, then the preamp and finally the amp. I should also mention that adding a power conditioner and quality cables/interconnects can have a large effect as well. With respect to speakers, it is important to audition them with your system, since I find it difficult to predict from a store audition how the speakers will sound with my electronics and in my room. For example, my CD player is a bit on the bright side, so my aerial 7b speakers (which are slightly "reserved") sound alot better than my Thiel 2.3s (which are brighter), even though they are of relatively comparable quality, and both excellent speakers. Interactions between speakers and the electronics, I find, make it difficult to know sometimes if I'm really "upgrading" my speakers, or simply changing them. |
To anybody that suggested Audibile differences can't be detected at the price points listed for digital frontends are wrong in my very humble opinion.
John Wright of museatex heavily moddified my Melior DAC, and the differences were huge. The problem with hearing digital differences is patience. Everybody wants instant results. The same people that can't hear differences in interconnects and speaker wire probably don't hear many differences in CDPs or digital front ends. They want instant change. They want to go from hearing RED to hearing BLACK within seconds.
I had been using a NAD 541i CDP and I hooked up the Meilor DAC (using the NAD as a transport) with a Moray James interconnect and a Harmonic Technology Cyberlink Platinum cable. At first there were differences but they were small, or so I thought. After 6 days I hooked up my NAD again and listened. I was disgusted. What I thought was a decent CDP sounded horribly 2-D stale and flat in comparison. These differences were not leaping out in front of me within the first 5mins of listening. After a week of listening to the DAC I heard differences that weren't subtle upon going back to the NAD. The Museatex gave me what the NAD did and didn't take anything away but simply added. Speakers can both add and subtract from other speakers, making the differences more striking.
I think part of the problem stems because speakers can be subjective and people can hear instant change. I sincerly doubt a person could spend $5k on a CDP/dac combo and "hate" its sonic signiture. Generally the more money spent on a CDP will allow you a better overall sound. Likewise, I have listened to speakers costing $5k that I hated. Speakers might be more subjective and might change the sound of music more, but don't disregard the frontend.
The kind of improvements take time, but when you hear them its all worth while. If you had to take away one thing from my system I can tell you right now, the DAC and digital interconnect would be the last thing you could get your paws on. I'd be content listening to this setup on cheaper speakers then a cheaper source. I can live with a system living up to its potential. Having more expensive speakers not coming close to what they could sound like would drive me insane, or kill me. |
Monthly income x 3.125 = quality speakers
Annual income x 3.125 = divorce |
Krazeeyk:
Get a used pair of Infinity Intermezzo 2.6's with stands and a matching Intermezzo 1.2 subwoofer. I saw a guy on Audiogon offering these for $1,250 obo. These are rated Class 'A' by most audiophile magazines in the world.
The Intermezzos have built-in 250W bass amps, so they're easy to drive, and they sound splendid with vacuum-tube electronics, which is the only way to go. Also, you won't have to spend much money on room acoustical treatments, because you can tune their low frequency response to suit your listening room.
Buy the Prima Luna Prologue Two integrated amplifier and the AH! Supertjoeb 4000 from Upscale Audio for circa $1,345 and $1,250, respectively. Buy the P.S. Audio UPS 200 line conditioner for $500.
Now you've got $655 left for cables. For an interconnect, look to D.H. Labs Revelation or Nordost Blue Heaven. For speakers cables get Nordost Blue Heaven with gold-plated Z-clip bananas (I've seen many used Nordost Blue Heavens on Audiogon.) And get your power cables from Frank at Signal Cable.
You'll have just enough left to take your Sweetie for a hot fudge sundae.
Good luck,
Jay
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A good rule of thumb would be 10 to 15 percent of your net worth. At least. Maybe more. |
Krazeeyk,
IMHO there is no set point as to what to spend on what. With 5K to spend. You can put together a sweet system SS or tubes. There are a few speakers in the 750-1500 (DynAudio) range that would easlilly foot the bill. That leaves 3500-4250 for an Integrated, a Digital front end and cables. Let your ears choose.
If I were to suggest a system in your budget:
Musical Fidelity X-80 or X-150 Integrated $1000.00
Musical Fidelity X-RAY CDP $1000.00
B&W Signature 805 $2500.00 (Maby less with the 805S out)
Synergistic Research Alpha Active IC 1M $200.00
Synergistic Research Signature 10 Active 10' is $800.00
Ok I am over by 500.00 but I am a firm believer in cables and that does not include stands.
Michael |
I think Douglas Schroeder is using the "DeBeers Equation", heheh. |
Personally, it's not the loudspeakers as much as the equipment behind them. I've heard reasonably priced speakers, (4K a pair), THAT I didn't care much for, sound superb with $22K of preamp, mono blocks, and CD player. My own experience proved that. I spent most on speakers, not front end. Consequently, not only did it become frustrating, it was costly.
Front end first, as much as is your budget to do. That is the priority.
Loudspeakers second - and here you can start low and move up with almost a new system each time there after.
The only other point to consider is synergy. Throughout a system, it is important. Details like sensitivity, size, price, resale, cosmetics, (not a high priority but important) should not be discounted.
I like the idea of powering less efficient speakers with big power amps. . . but it's costly. The 22K & 4K system I heard that blew me away was top of the line THOR preamp, blocks, and Shan Lings top CD player, p[utting out 30 wpc into a pair of von Schweigert VR 4JR's. pretty impressive sound came out of those little 2K a copy loudspeakers. (audience & HT wires) |
Personally I start with speakers. Whatever does it for me that I can afford.
And then I build a system around them that works as best it can as funds permit.
This way you end up with a good front end that when the time comes to upgrade the speakers, there is little to do to optimise for them, simple as cables, or perhaps an amp, and then move forward.
A "strategy" for progress.....although recently I have been through wholesale changes as everything is getting on a bit in age now. And I've mellowed as I 've got older and priorities do change. |
basicly I believe there are two schools of thought, one says put your money into your speakers, and upgrade everything behind them till you are satisfied and then upgrade your speakers and begin again. The other says put it into your amplification then go either to your source or speaker next and keep on going back and forth, cabling included until you can't get it any better and then upgrade your amp. i buy my equipment with the idea of hanging on to them for at least a decade, so it is a splash but it lasts. Hope this helps. |
Hi all
For those of you that are curious, I have purchased the following components so far.
Bryston BP-20 preamp
Aragon 2004 MkII
Arcam cd72.
Creek obh-9 i believe (moving magnet forgot the number)
I am currently looking to try some new speakers. Currently using wharfdale e-90s. Right now I have a strong inclination toward the Vandersteen 3A signatures.
Interestingly enough I have made my want into analog and have started to despise the cd-sound. Could by my player so I'm currently looking into either upgrading that or buying a new analog rig. Decisions decisions.
After that, the Power Amp is next. |
Re: digital sound. In my experience, a good DAC can do wonders for transforming edgy, flat digital sound towards a more layered, musical, liquid analog-like experience. Like Lush, I use a modified Museatex Data II. It's the real deal. The improvement is dramatic, not subtle, compared to playback from my Sony CDP. If you find one, get it. If it doesn't work for you, you can resell at little to no economic loss. I haven't heard the unmodified version, my comments pertain to the John Wright mods. My cost was $350! Other DACs I listened to are DCS, EMM labs, Lavry, Electrocompaniet, Audio Aero, and some others I forgot. |
Yikes....5K in plenty. The speaker-room interface is probably the most critical part of your system. Remember to budget for room treatments as it doesn't matter how much you spend on the rest of your system if the room is bad. The most expensive system in the world will sound like crap set up incorrectly without regard for the room. |
Decent speakers w/crap electronics=crap. Here is my example.
Before i begin let me just say that I plan to sell my current speakers (Bose 901's MKVI). They were the first item purchased when I decided I want a good stereo. I always wanted a pair since I was a kid in the '70s. So I bought them without even an audition. (very bad idea). Hooked them up to a Pioneer Elite VSX52. Very disapointed. I hated them. So I bought a McIntosh MC-2205. They sounded much better, but I still did not like them at all. Recently I bought a McIntosh-252 and what a dfifference! They actually sound pretty good. Even at very high volumes. So my point is that even though the speakers may be the most important part of your decision, without quality amp, even the best speaks in the woirld will disapoint. I am looking for the 'right' speakers now. Guess I need to spend about $3-4k...and all I came in here is for some milk and a loaf of bread.... |
Sensitivity rating on the speakers should be a consideration if you like your music loud and you are on a budget. Less $$$$ to spend on an amp capable of driving your speakers to a satisfying volume.
Another note.....I think on a modest system interconnects and speaker cables are the last thing I would spend big bucks on. Blue Jean cables makes good stuff for a very reasonable price. Keep in mind that I am new at this too, but I believe that to be sound advise based on my experience. |
I just replaced the 901s with a pair of Klipsch RF7s. Wow! What a speaker!!! Blows the 901s back to the 70s where they should have stayed. For $1800. I am very happy. |
i would call klaus at odyssey and tell him you want a 5k digital system. you could probably get his top of the line speakers with that. then you have 45 days to decide if it blows you away, and i'm sure it will. the components are all trade in approved if you want to upgrade later. i'm sure he can suggest an economical cd player that "works" with the rest of the system. i don't own any odyssey gear but i have heard it plenty at my cousins house and it is very good. if i had known then what i know now i would have gone that way, the price is right and you get great synergy. |
Hi All,
The challenge so far is the room size 20'x18'. Any new suggestions? |
There is a bigger difference in sound quality/characteristics between speakers than there is between electronics. Therefore, speakers are DEFINITELY where the money must be spent. |
I say you just need to take as much as you think you can afford for new speakers, and then double it. ...or perhaps simply make your own... |
In my humble audiophile opinion start by spending half the budget on a excellent source (turntable/tonearm, or disc player), first. Fact is, if you can't recover the data from the source you will never hear it, no matter how swing the speaker. Many audiophiles will agree that there is a far more satisfying future in a system built around a outstandingly musical and detailed source. Now understand, your hearing this from a guy who in 1983 bought a Linn Sondek Lp12 with Ittok arm for about (1700.00 USD) and then found a modest amp and speaker combo. Since then I have upgraded three times completely with exception to the source, which I still own and am very pleased with. If you notice I have not mentioned a phono cartridge because my first was very modest as well and over time I have upgraded to something outrageous. I have always remained happy with my system and my upgrades have followed in this hierarchy. I digress. Split the remaining half on the best speaker and power amp combination to your liking. Caution. Be careful in this pairing to find synergy in performance. I recommend you do not buy any power amp or speakers that are individually auditioned, recommended, or reviewed. I know this is sometimes difficult but, you must hear the magic of these two components together. Read around Audiogon of the mismatch problems and general discontent with the synergy of many combinations. There is a lot of great amplifier products and great speakers that will never work well together. I happen to like and could finally afford Aesthetix preamps, Atma-sphere amps, and Coincident Technology speakers. I auditioned them on and off for two years while coming up with the funds. For me, this combo gets me closer to the music than I have ever been. Enjoy! |
Buy the best speakers you can period, that way as you up-grade all your components, your speakers will grow with you, you will hear more, feel more, and smile more as your sources get better. |
If you have the room for Magnapans, like the 1.6s or even 3.6s, consider them at 1725 and 3500 per pair respectively. Because the sound improves as you feed them more power, you could start with an integrated amp, or good preamp and amp, with the intent of adding more power over time. You could even monoblock or biamp them as budget allows in the future.
Audition multiple CDPs (or even the new universal players) to determine if, on your selected cuts, you can hear a difference. I would avoid SACDs and HDCDs for now, unless the specific cuts you desire are already available in these formats.
The ultimate judge of the music is YOUR ear, and no one else's. |
i bought a VPI MK3 with a Morch Arm,and with the money left over purchased a Grado Reference The Reference Phono Cartridge.You would be very hard pressed to find any CD RIGsound like this one.Of course I can always upgrade the table a little more with an Aries Platter,SDS,and outer ring clamp.
You can try to get an Analog Table like this.With everything mine cost me about $1,500.00 counting cost of cartridge.My spekers cost a little more the Martin Logan Quest Z.
Happy Hunting
Don |
I always ask my wife...... |
My plan of attack was to purchase "A class" 7.1 electronic equipment and then to purchase a borderline high end 5.1 speaker setup. This allowed me to get equipment I won't have to upgrade for a long time, while allowing me the time to save up for the "A class" stereo speakers that I can add to my setup to complete a 7.1 system down the road. The borderline high end speakers are close enough in quality to bring out the best in my equipment without me having to sacrifice in any area while I save the cash to complete my setup. |
I subscribe entirely Swampwalker's opinion:
"In other words, high end speakers driven by average electronics will NOT sound as good as good electronics driving average speakers."
I had one system where the weak-link were the speakers: they were too good!!! Superb detail and transparency showed all the limitations of the source, amplifiers and cables!
I've only found two ways of making that system play enjoyable music: Replace all the electronics and cables by much more expensive ones (5k source; 11k amps; 4k cables); or replace the "high-end" speakers by normal "hi-fi" speakers.
From my personal experience I have also found out that for most balanced systems, the largest sum of money should go for the amplifiers, and not the speakers:
1. Amplifiers
2. Speakers
3. Source and cables |
Sony I agree that better electronics are more important than better speakers. The issue I would have with your statement is that the amp is more important than the source.
What is the better amp going to add back into the music that the lesser source did not get off of the LP or CD? Everything lost at the source is lost forever. The source is far and away the most important piece, but all things are important! |
In my system,I spent about half my budget on speakers,about a quarter for amplification,and about a quarter for sources. I used supplied innerconnects and 16g hearter cord from the hardware store as speaker wire.
I have no quibble with those who would break it down into thirds instead of 2 to 1 to 1.
You mentioned that you are a beginner at this.I hesitate to tell you how to spend five thousand because I don't know your room or your listening preferences.
That said,for a beginner,I suggest using a search engine to find AVA (Audio by Van Alstine) and Odyssey Audio. Take the time to look over their sites and when you have any questions,e mail them,with the knowledge that they market excellent stuff for the money and will give you honest advice.
I have not heard the Biro L-1s(I'm one of those panel speaker nuts.) but I'm sure those(from AVA) and anything Klaus(from Odysssey Audio) recommend with their equipment would be fine deals for the money.
Then,when you are no longer a beginner and can put together used stuff properly,you can do well at this site. |
Nrchy, I haven't said that the amplifiers are more important than the source, but that I would put more money on them. Without a good source, forget about it. The main reason to spend more money in the amplifier than the source is simple: Good amplifiers are much more expensive than good sources!
With 5K you can buy a good source.
With 5K you can only buy an average altough powerful amplifier or a fine but weak amplifier.
|
Intersting comments, Sony. There may be something to that. I have about $13,000 worth of front end in the TT/arm/cartridge, and about $15,000 (I think) worth of electronics for the amp. That certainly coincides with your assessment. BUT since I did not pay retail, in actual dollars there was more money spent on the front end.
Velly intaresssstingk! |
