Could anyone here (Georgehifi) comment to how the ML2’s compare to the 20.6’s sonically? |
"Stenalx, Based on your summation, the ML2 was an excellently designed/implemented simple/straightforward (relatively speaking) circuit superb sounding class A amplifier. Any idea why the decision was made to add gain stages and feedback thus losing the "magic" of the original? Seems they should have left well enough alone. Charles " A very late reply to Charles1dad question above about later ML's using more gain stages + Feedback etc: As Georgehifi correctly mentioned, their newest offerings appear to be simpler design with low feedback. I was of course referring to the ML amplifiers post ML-2's and up to no 33's. They got crazy complex (just look at the schematics) and the sound was really not that great. I have listened to /owned many big ML's. Although their build quality is always second to none, their sonics remained a lot to be desired.
ML-2's are a totally different beasts. Good luck |
[please excuse my poor English] A friend sells his ML-2 pair (2nd hand). - is the ML-2 topology fully balanced ? I read that the XLR input was an option; this suggests that the circuit is not fully balanced. Which in turn implies that the RCA/Camac inputs are more "direct" (no additional circuit to balance the signal just after the input). Is it correct? - On this sample, there are only Camac inputs & XLR (my Aries Cerat Incito preamp is not fully balanced, but has an XLR output; so RCA outputs of my preamp are more "direct"). So it means I would enter the "connections compatibility hell". - if Nr 1 is correct => preferred output for my preamp is RCA <> preferred input for ML-2 power amplifier is Camac...
SPEAKERS: analysis Epsilon, 85dB, 4 Ohms nominal (3 Ohms above 3 KHz); flat impedance curve. Moderate level. Classical music. 50m², but listen midfield; excellent acoustics (brick walls and curvated vaults ceiling). Thanks. |
I don't have ML2 but have ML333. I also have the latest Class D Purifi Eigentakt and Benchmark AHB2 (Stereophile Class A rated today). The ML333 has more dynamic and extended treble than Class D Pirifi while driving 802D3. The Benchmark AHB2 sounds very similar to ML333 , but when play loud classical music, it has less bass slam. |
Mark and I parted company in 1978. The ML2 was fully developed and shipping to dealers by then. The ML3 was still conceptual. Two or three years later, after the ML3 and other ML products were introduced, Mark sold the company to Madrigal Audio. I was busy with my own (non-audio) company and I wasn't following the details except for occasional conversations with my former coworkers. Tom Colangelo, who had been my assistant, and Mark continued to develop and market products for the brand, brilliantly in my opinion. I was saddened to hear of Tom's death in 2007. I've never met a more talented and dedicated designer. |
These were all great amps. I owned an ML-2, ML-3 and No 23.5 in the mid 80's. I started with an ML-2 but I was driving Magneplaner Tympani-IVs in a very large room. At low volumes, it was absolutely exquisite, but it ran out of power at louder volumes, and since I was in my 20s then, I liked to crank them louder than I should have. I switched to an ML-3 which had tons of grunt. When I sold my Tympani IVs and switched to Duntech Sovereigns, I also traded in my ML-3 for a No 23.5, which I agree was more refined. But these were all great amps in their day, and I think the ML-2 and No 23.5 could still hold their own against current amps (at least under $20K). |
Thanks George. It is great to hear/read about engineers/designers. The ML-2 is one of my favorite amps. Same for the ML-3. That was/is a monster also. Doesn't sound quite as good as a 23.5, but, it is pretty nice. George, did you have anything to do with the design of the 23.5? To this day, it is still one of my favorite and still better sounding amps. enjoy |
I think I can provide some useful information on the ML2. I'm sorry to be so late to this conversation. I have been out of the audiofile world for decades, and I've decided I want to do some serious listening through a good system again. I'm thinking you folks can help me catch up with new developments and products. Mark Levinson hired me to be chief engineer for his company in December, 1974. I was the ninth employee and first engineer at the company, and I participated in the development and production of the ML2 amplifier. I relate that info simply as background. The ML2 is capable of 100 watts into 8 ohms in a bridged configuration. That requires two ML2s per channel, one driven normally and the other driven in inverse polarity. Both connections are on the back panel. Although they were uncommmon, triamped HQD systems with an ML2 on each tweeter and bridged ML2s on the mids sounded amazing, and amazingly loud. I don't recall the various large amps used to drive the Hartley woofers, which ranged up to 24 inches. I'll be happy to provide additional information on request. It's been over 40 years, but I still remember my MLAS experience pretty well. George Mayhew |
How do true talents such as Mark Levinson ... get booted from their own companies? How can one discard that level of passion, commitment and talent? Hi Charles, The "Background" section of the following court case summary provides an excellent overview of the relevant history: https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/appellate-courts/F2/799/814/117849/ Perhaps the financial troubles that were referred to contributed to Mark & Tom’s decision to produce the relatively low cost (and presumably much more widely marketable) ML-9 and ML-11. Best, -- Al |
Reading Al’s post concerning other "original" ML amps with higher power output, George answered my first thought/question. Did the higher powered ML3 rival the sound quality of the revered ML2? I should have known that would be the answer .How do true talents such as Mark Levinson and Dennis Had (Cary) get booted from their own companies? How can one discard that level of passion, commitment and talent? This would the same as Audio Research getting rid of the( late) William Zane while still very active and involved with the company.. Charles |
Here is an very old shot of the ML3 I had to repair 200 W/channel at 8 ohms, 400 W/ch at 4 ohms, 800 W/ch at 2 ohms It opens up like a clam very thoughtful design for techs and you can power it up like that, it was so big it wouldn’t fit on my work bench, so I used the kids homework table. Some 24 bi-polar outputs per channel 2 x massive transformers, true dual mono amp. https://ibb.co/XCxYmkz Didn’t come within cooee of the 25w ML2 monoblocks for sound quality I just find it quite admirable that a class A transistor amplifier from 1977 still can on sonic grounds (the most important quality/criteria IMO) outperform so many current production amplifiers.If you look at it nearly all tube amps today are based on the 1949 Williamson circuit, https://www.preservationsound.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/WilliamsonAmp_1947.jpg Similar can be said about transistors, especially Matti Otala’s, Nelson Pass, John Curl, etc etc designs Cheers George |
Any idea why the decision was made to add gain stages and feedback thus losing the "magic" of the original? Seems they should have left well enough alone.According to my records the original Mark Levinson Audio Systems company produced three other amplifiers before Mark lost control of his company, and he and Tom Colangelo were no longer part of it (~1984). Those were the ML-3, ML-9, and ML-11. All of them were much more powerful than the ML-2 (into 8 ohms!), while the ML-9 and ML-11 were designed to much lower price points. And I believe the ML-3 was also significantly less expensive than a pair of ML-2s, while being 8 times as powerful (into 8 ohms). And after 1984 or thereabouts it was essentially a completely different company. Best, -- Al |
I appreciate ML's comments. I recognize technology moves onward and evolves. I just find it quite admirable that a class A transistor amplifier from 1977 still can on sonic grounds (the most important quality/criteria IMO) outperform so many current production amplifiers. A 43 year old SS amplifier that people still covet for excellent sound quality. Charles |
Today's ML's don't have much feedback as the distortion specs show on the 534 and 536 poweramps. The the poweramps have input sensitivity that's almost 3v for full output this is a low gain amp, and distortion figures of 0.3%THD showing low feedback designs. (they don't show the THD for the poweramp section of the integrated's, but one would think it's the same) Maybe they lost their way in the 10-15 years ago when they dabbled in Class-D with the very expensive No.53 monoblocks, with very complex output filters to get rid of the switching frequency, they were probably high gain and high feedback https://www.stereophile.com/content/mark-levinson-no53-reference-monoblock-power-amplifier Interesting read that Mark Levinson wrote on Class-D. Cheers George |
Stenalx, Based on your summation, the ML2 was an excellently designed/implemented simple/straightforward (relatively speaking) circuit superb sounding class A amplifier. Any idea why the decision was made to add gain stages and feedback thus losing the "magic" of the original? Seems they should have left well enough alone. Charles |
Here’s lots of info on them https://www.marklev.com/2013/04/ The WTconcept resto site was a great to see one with dozens of HD pics gets a complete resto job done, http://www.wtconcept.com/levinsonml2/ but it closed down, even "WayBack Machine" hasn’t got it in it’s entirety The Aboslute Sound: Cheers George |
I think the ML2’s over the Classe by quite a margin. The Classe uses Darlington output transistors combined driver/output, not great can’t be controlled as well, never really caught on in hiend audio. file:///C:/Users/georg/Downloads/Classe%20DR-3%20Service%20(1).pdf And the ML’s use separate driver and Bi-Polar output much better scope for tuning for stability etc. https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/solid-state/268127-reason-people-dont-darlington-power-transistor.html Cheers George |
Problems? Low power - read: low sensitivity speakers playing in large, deadening rooms, 25W in 8 ohms is not gonna cut it.Yep, great sounding amp to a given level. better driving 4ohm speakers then you’ve got 50w first 25 Class-A. A step further a 2ohm speaker then you have 100w first 25w Class-A!!! Have a guess where I’m going ?? Wilson Alexia 90db and over 100w available for it's horror load impedance bass, again to a given level, I’d guess medium to medium/loud listening level with efficiency Cheers George |
Totally concur with George-hifi. ML-2 is a legendary amplifier without peers - really. Not only can it compete with modern designs (2020), it’ll subjectively and objectively outperform 99% of them. Sonics far superior to anything of the time (70s) from Threshold, Krell, Phase Linear, Harman, Marantz or anything else. Phenomenal build quality & design. ML later opted for far more complex, massive no. of gain-stages, massive feedback circuits and so was the magic of ML-2 gone forever. Problems? Low power - read: low sensitivity speakers playing in large, deadening rooms, 25W in 8 ohms is not gonna cut it. I know some who’ve modified them for higher power, but you’ll need electronics knowledge and tools to do it, so not recommended for John Doe. I’ve heard a cpl of Chinese clones... they’re not even close, so don’t bother. In one word: If you find one = get it !! |
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It depends how loud you listen and what type of music you listen too, these ML2’s are absolute magic with Quad 57’s and they are 86db. But I wouldn’t have a party and play AC/DC through them. Yet with Wilson Audio Alexia at min 0.9ohm and a mean of 3-4ohms at 90db you almost could "maybe". But either speaker would sound their very best before the ML2's ran out of wattage. Cheers George |
Here is a 3 angle pic of a pair of these magnificent Mark Levinson ML2’s 25w into 8ohm monoblock beasts. Yes you read right only 25w, but it’s pure Class-A, and the amp supposedly can double all the way to 1ohm or very close to it, 50w into 4ohm 100w into 2ohm and 200w into 1ohm. http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-Dl_s-5onlMQ/U3aOuQObHgI/AAAAAAAB8w0/dcWAEn7P7hU/s1600/ml_2_d.jpg http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-zeynKRtwYAU/U3aVH1ye9BI/AAAAAAAB8x4/r4y2IE0dOfM/s1600/img_0.jpg http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-eknTM0uV3hs/U3aVH6L5KNI/AAAAAAAB8x8/36EssodT4_k/s1600/img_1.jpg Cheers George |
