Horns

You may want to read the thread on Viking speakers.  The last post was a week or so ago.   A longtime owner vented his frustrations with a pair of speakers he bought (his fourth pair).

@jasbirnandra,

You may want to read the thread on Viking speakers below. Mike

I hope the mods leave this post up since there have been a few people who have reached out to me about Viking Acoustics products since I owned 3 different pairs over ~7 years and had good experiences. When I placed an order for my 4th pair everything went wrong. This was roughly a half cash and half trade-in credit with my current pair. I paid the cash in Aug 2019 and sent my trade-in speakers shortly after that. To make a long story short there were some setbacks (original speakers painted wrong color), some changes of plans for various reasons (could not source good wood), and by the time things got on track COVID-19 hit. I was extremely forgiving of the situation due to what was happening in the world. Every few months I would try to check in but there was never any sort of firm ETA. In the spring of 2021 I started to doubt whether I would ever receive these speakers. I was now at the 20 month mark with no audio (shipped my trade-in pair in 2019) so I placed an order with another manufacturer. Of course as soon as I did this my Viking’s were ready to ship...

Before the speakers even arrived Viking apologized for the poor packaging (this is important later). When the speakers arrived I was shocked they were not destroyed and even emailed Viking this. From my memory they were shipped in cheap Home Depot moving boxes which were barely big enough to hold each speaker. The delicate wood horns stick up above the top of the cabinet and were very close to the box with essentially zero protection. There was very little packaging inside the boxes, just some scraps of foam and whatnot that looked leftover from something else. The first stand I pulled from the box had a big ding in the wood. This was obviously shipped to me this way because the box had no damage and it was the center pillar of the stand which would have been impossible to hit once in the box. I then pulled the speakers out and saw the finish of the black painted cabinets was cracking all over. Also, none of the imperfections of the ply were filled prior to painting so there were voids and divots all over. Extremely amateur looking for a retail $15k speaker! I asked Viking about why these were shipped to me like this and their response was "it gives it character". The other issue was I use a specific set of speaker cables with a certain size spade and also a ground lead. I made it clear from the start that I needed the binding posts and ground lug to fit these cables. I even drew a nice schematic of it in Visio and sent it to Viking at the start. I was assured this would be taken care of and I reminded them at least a couple times long the way. Despite all my effort they paid no attention to it and my cables would not fit.

Viking refused to take the speakers back despite all the issues. They said I could ship them back, they would refinish them, then list them on their site for sale. They made it clear that I still own them. So, I re-packaged them back into the same boxes, using the same scraps of packing material, and shipped them back. Of course on the way back one of the horns gets destroyed and Viking blames me. They make a new horn for it and get it listed on the website for sale sometime in the late spring or early summer of 2021. In Dec 2021 I finally see the status change to SOLD on their site so I ask where my money is. Viking says they are not sold but will send back some of my money. After prodding them a second time for my money they sent a check for 90% of my cash payment, as in I am still out 10% cash plus the trade-in value of my original speakers. A few months later after more excuses and lies I became aware that a forum member purchased these speakers and indeed his check was cashed in Dec 2021. I confronted Viking on this who still continued to say they were not sold yet. When I pressed harder on where the rest of my money is Viking would respond with cryptic one sentence emails like "we’re in the middle of a major hiccup" and "we’re in the middle of re-organizing". They would not answer my direct question of "why are you not returning my money?".

In the end I am out X thousands of dollars, went without audio for almost 2 years, was delivered a laughable product, and have wasted so much time dealing with this company and their lies. There are many great speakers out there and trustworthy companies to deal with. Save yourself a major headache.

vortrex05-23-2022 11:39pm

Yup I'd stay clear of Viking Acoustics. Nothing I'd want to deal with or take a chance.

You might try Audiokinesis speakers.

I have their big Dream makers, sounding fine.

To get the best horn speaker sound you need matching amps.

I use Atma-Sphere MA1 monoblocs, to the Audiokinesis Dream makers. These speakers are designed for tube amps. This match sounds way better than other speakers / amps I tried before.

hORNS are supposed to be stunningly good. I have not heard them but a few people I trust either own them or have heard them and said they are worth the time to listen to.

Avantgarde is the obvious choice to me.  Stunningly good speakers though not everyone loves that they use powered bass modules.  The benefit is that the overall efficiency of the speakers is ultra high (104 to 107dB) and you can use 1-2 watt amps.

Auto-tech has been making many high-quality horns for a few decades their new company http://horns.pl/en/speaker-sets/universum-3-way/  is based on long-established DIY offerings and would be a great choice. 

Listen to horns before buying. If you are used to other types of speakers you will find horns have a unique sound and specific attributes that you may or may not appreciate. 

audition__audio. --  Every speaker has a unique sound.  I have had Wilson, B&W, and Sonus Faber speakers.  All were different.   I now have horn speakers and I love them.  As far as unique sound to the horn....hmmmm, I don't agree.  I do think that live recordings on a horn are like being at a concert hall.  

+1  @willgolf 

Well I believe that the type of transducer has a huge impact on the sound of the speaker. So the difference in sound when comparing dynamic speakers is not as significant as comparing dynamic speakers with horns or panels. I have never heard a horn speaker that sounded like a dynamic speaker nor an electrostat. I think the sonic differences are very fundamental and very easy to recognize. 

@jasbirnandra , the James Romeyu Bohemian (Audiokinesis) speaker is a wonderful Horn speaker for those with tube amps. For top performance they still require subwoofer but there are painfully few that do not. However, since those big 15" drivers cover the meaty part of the midrange (crossover 700 Hz) the improvement in clarity should be profound. If used without subwoofers I would roll them off at 40 Hz.

@audition__audio , I think the big difference is between point source and line source speakers. Bad horns are painfully obvious but really good ones sound very much like regular dynamic speakers but cleaner, more efficient with less room interaction because their dispersion is restricted. Tall Panels are in a totally different world, some like them others do not. I am a big fan of tall panels as most people here know. I prefer the larger sound stage and the dipole, line source radiation pattern almost entirely eliminates the need for room treatments. The room essentially disappears. But, if I did not have the situation required for big panels the Bohemian is certainly a speaker I could buy. 

Don’t listen to the audiophiles who assume all horns have a sound that is mostly negative. Much of the audiophile music that’s so cherished today was mastered on horn systems. Yet audiophiles will say you need to play back the way the artists intended then they proceed to play that wonderful Jazz or blues mastered on Altec TAD and RCA horns on a small chinless dynamic bookshelf or slim tower. Many of them have never owned horns or had any real experience with the many types of horn systems available. They have been told that horns are problematic. An old tail made up by 1950-60s audio salesmen to get mono speaker owners to dump the wonderful JBL Hartsfield for a crappy pair of AR. The old sales lines have been passed down by the audio press as facts. Just like they did with tube amplifiers and turn tables. Later they were proven very wrong it’s the same with horn designs.

Well what type of speaker used for mastering has no bearing on the quality of reproduction in your home system. For example those awful JBL speakers used in so many mastering studios for decades should be proof enough. The goal with speakers is to reproduce, as accurately as possible, the source material. Each speaker design contributes positively in different ways to this material. But the same thing always emerges from the horn crowd and it is dynamics and lack of dynamic compression. Legitimate points. You have to laugh when people claim to have heard a recording being made but are listening in the booth with whatever monitor the studio was using at the time. Instead of considering what the monitors used in the studio got correct, it is equally legitimate to consider what was missed by these same speakers.  

Oh and by the way, who is your source for the information about the 50s and 60s tactics to sell AR speakers? Perhaps you should say you dont like the old ARs and prefer horns. To assume that many of the negative opinions regarding horns arent based on listening is a bit of a stretch dont you think?  

List your vast horn experience. And please link to all these reviews based on listening tests that prove the point you try to make on horn loudspeaker systems. Or was I also wrong about how the press covered tube amplifiers and early digital? 

You said {For example those awful JBL speakers used in so many mastering studios for decades should be proof enough}. So what models of JBL are you referring to and when did you own or hear any of these JBL horns? 

No you arent wrong about the way the press covered tube amps or early digital. Doesnt make your point one bit about how they covered dynamic speakers vs. horns and that the same mistakes were repeated. If you want to point me to a specific article about what we were actually discussing then I am game. 

I have heard Klipsch both stock and modified, various Antique Audios both at shows and at the home of the owner of Atma-sphere and Triplanar, various designs by Bruce Edgar, Cessaro, Avant Garde, various Altecs (including several Voice of the Theatres), all horn (including bass horn) from China at Axpona, Living Voice for a start. I have no idea what you mean about linking reviews about horns/my listening tests.

I have never owned any JBL or horn speakers. The JBLs of which I refer are the dynamic design JBL ( L series ?). No need as they all share a sonic attribute that I find distasteful. Would you buy a speaker which had attributes that you didnt like? A "chinless" speaker if you will. I can find things I like about horns but nothing about those older JBLs.

The thing I find very unusual is how aggressive horn fans sometimes seem. This is nothing new to me as I was introduced to this in high school and college. A Klipsch dealer in Iowa built a S.S. amp (a Leech if memory serves) and a pair of horn speakers for a friend that sounded just awful. When we would go into the dealership where he worked he displayed a nastiness towards those who didnt like horn speakers that was most unbecoming. As a college student especially, it was very disheartening to actually want to learn and to be lectured and belittled by a overweight, slovenly salesman without a pot to piss in nor a window....He felt that he elevated himself by belittling others, especially those younger and less schooled and loved to do this around others. Dont know why but this has stuck with me as the way not to be and how not behave in this industry. Last thing you ever do is knock a product that someone just spent their hard earned money on. Also I learned from this guy never to ride an older Japanese twin with straight pipes....rude. 

So I guess if you want to continue to try to objectify the subjective I will do my best to help. But, dont be like the Klipsch salesman I described earlier. 

audition__audio...You are not a horn guy and that is fine and I respect your analysis above.   However, you say that horn people get all bent out of shape when horns are criticized and that may be true.  In this case, the Op was asking specifically about two different horn speakers.  He was not asking if anyone had any concerns about the sound characteristics of a horn speaker versus a nonhorn speaker which you alluded to early on in this thread.  In this case, the Op has made a decision to go with a horn.   Respectfully....

I wanted to make certain that he had heard this design before buying. His statement about "buy and try" raised some questions. Dont get me wrong I love aspects of horn speaker reproduction, but in the areas which I find most important I think they fall a bit short. I dont like it when another member concludes that I havent heard horns because I dont prefer them to other designs. I also reject the notion that other speaker types arent viable or are intrinsically inferior. 

Ive purchased numerous JBL Speakers that were used in recording studio's and NONE were an "L" Series. The only L I can think of is the L65 from the very early 1970's.

  The studio monitor numbers are like 4312, 4311, 4309, 4410, 4412.   I dont think you have ANY idea what your talking about.

  The studio monitor numbers are like 4312, 4311, 4309, 4410, 4412.   I dont think you have ANY idea what your talking about.

I agree!

I didnt say definitively that it was an L this was just a guess. The 4312 comes to mind if this was the speaker with the midrange and tweeter on the same horizontal plane when upright. Why dont you just say you like JBL speakers and my comment that I thought they sucked got under your skin. But you are right I dont know what I am talking about. Now lets move on to horn speakers and how I dont know anything about them either. 

+2 @willgolf 

What happened to johnk? I thought we were just getting started. I wonder if perhaps he does or used to own a Japanese twin with straight pipes?

No Japanese twins with straight pipes.  I design loudspeakers, and I also collect and restore all types inc horns I'm well-known in this hobby people come to me to design products or appraise identify or retell the history of rare audio. I tire of those who pass about hearsay and bias as facts while not having any hands-on experience.

 I tire of those who pass about hearsay and bias as facts while not having any hands-on experience.

I agree!

If possible look into the offerings by Charney Audio full range single driver horns. I just up graded to the Companion with Voxativ AF 2.6 drivers. Sweet clean engaging sound with deep clean bass in my 11x15x8 office. Wether studio or live the artists are in the room with you…spooky real! If your space is bigger Charney can accommodate you. 
 

http://charneyaudio.com/

I don't know where you live, but if you are close to Tucson, Arizona, you are welcome to come listen to Volti Audio upgraded Khorns.  Have the system of my dreams. All amps are tubes and range from 6 wpc to 29 wpc. sensitivity is around 105. Have no problem driving with 6 wpc. You have to listen to as many systems as possibive.