History on ohm A's and F's.

I do believe that unlike the current Ohms, the original Ohm Walsh's were bending wave drivers, and the German Physiks DDD is just an update of the original Walsh concept. The "inefficiency" of the original Walsh drivers might be due to other factors.

I think saying the Walsh speaks including As and Fs are pistonic is an accurate statement.

Regarding efficiency, though I would not doubt the DDD driver is more efficient than the original Walsh A or F drivers from 30 years ago, I think comparing a full range driver like those on the Ohm A and F to a limited range driver that does not cover the low end like the DDD is an apples and oranges comparison.

"(the Walsh was a purely pistonic driver, which was at the core of its efficency issues)."
???

Pardon my intrusion, but as the North American distributor for German Physiks I hope I can add some information to the discussion:

by the way - to my knowledge, Huff has not had access to the German Physiks DDD driver for quite some time. Holger Mueller (owner of German Physiks) said that he had stopped supplying the driver to OEMs some time ago.

Also - with regard to the technology in the German Physiks DDD driver - it is not a "truncated" Walsh driver as one suggested, but rather a bending wave driver (the Walsh was a purely pistonic driver, which was at the core of its efficiency issues).

The DDD is actually made from microns-thin titanium foil or carbon fiber, and the voice coil is not fixed hard to the cone but rather acts as a striker might act on a bell, causing predictable distortions in the surface of the foil ... which in turn project the sound into the air.

It is true that the DDD does not perform into low frequencies the same way the original Ohm driver did. Then again, it also doesn't require megawatt amplifiers to come alive, not will it melt down the moment it starts getting enjoyable.

Kirk's not dead?Have you seen those commercials?Same voice,definately not the same body.They must of not shown that episode where you live where he...........can't remember now.....new chipset isn't working properly.To be continued......

See "This Side of Paradise" and "All Our Yesterdays" for an emotion filled Vulcan.

Ah yes you are right. I kind of meant in general though. The T'pau episode (Amok Time) also seemed quite emotional for our logical hero too - he sure seemed happy to see Kirk was not dead!

I may have a bit of an interesting perspective on the Ohm's since I'm a new Ohm owner.

I had to sell my old Vandy 2C's due to space considerations and aesthetic considerations (low WAF) in our remodeled house. I had it narrowed down to either a pair of Totem Arro's or a pair of Ohm Micro Walsh Tall's, which Mapman got me interested in here on A'gon.

In the end, the Arro's had more online reviews and more raves on A'gon, and so I made a more "conventional" choice with the Arro's, instead of what seemed at the time like a "weird-ass" choice (the Ohm's). ;-)

I was disappointed with the Arro's, not because their tonality isn't fine (it is) but because I found the much-touted "holographic" presentation lacking. I mean, they image nicely enough, but the "magic" wasn't there in my listening room. Plus, I found the descriptions of the Ohm's so seductive that I couldn't shake the thought that I'd like them better.

I took the plunge and ordered a pair of Micro Walsh Tall's.

They're nearly identical in exterior dimensions to the Totem Arro (an inch wider and an inch shallower, but the same height).

To my ears, the Ohm MWT's smoke the Arro's on a number of fronts:

1) Bass is far fuller and more authoritative.
2) The Ohm's really move some air when they need to, as opposed to the Arro's.
3) I'm sure there are people who find the Ohm's spatial presentation gimmicky or weird, but I love it. Instruments reach out into the room. Voices have space and air around them. On the right material, the rear wall behind the speakers vanishes into a deep soundstage. And orchestral music is convincing to the point of being truly moving or thrilling.

Disclaimer: the Arro's aren't fully broken in, as I was reminded/chided in another thread here. So be it. But I don't see the Arro's, even after their recommended 100-140 hours of break-in time, replicating what I find most impressive about the Ohm's.

>>Indeed Mr. Spock displayed much more emotion in "The Cage" than in rest of the series<<

Not true.

See "This Side of Paradise" and "All Our Yesterdays" for an emotion filled Vulcan.

I would say there is truth and still some beauty as long as you don't open up the "cage".

Indeed Mr. Spock displayed much more emotion in "The Cage" than in rest of the series.

"Even Spock???"

Yes, even Spock!

Although as I recal he felt better by the end of the episode.

I think it (the episode) was ironically called "Is There in Truth No Beauty?".

With the Ohms, I would say there is truth and still some beauty as long as you don't open up the "cage".

Aktchi:

My comment was meant to apply to speakers that I have actually owned and tested over the years in my own house, not necessarily to any that I have ever auditioned or heard. There may well be others out there, but nothing I can think of offhand that I would consider over the Ohms.

$2800 B&W floorstanders (P6) and $2500 Dynaudio Monitors (Contour 1.3 mkII) are two that I own or have owned and tried.

I lost all interest listening to classical with the B&Ws after the Maggies. Though they had good weight and slam overall, they were never convincing with classical. Pretty good with other more rhythmic forms of music though.

The Dynaudio monitors, though fantastic for their size, are not totally convincing with large scale works including classical either.

I also still have a pair of Triangle Titus 202 monitors mated with a sub which does a very respectable job with all classical music forms.

Also I would include original Ohm Walsh 2's from the 80's that I owned for years....respectable but not great with classical.

The newer Walsh CLS series 4 drivers beat out all of these in every type of music, but for classical in particular.

There is no sense of missing anything in a performance of a large scale classical piece with any of the Walsh series 3 drivers in a properly matched size room.

Mapman: The Ohms and Maggies are the only speaks I can afford that I ever found endearing when set up properly with classical music...

Which specific brands did they beat out in your experience?

Even Spock???Surely you jest......don't call me Surely.Those Ohm from the 70's,forget the model was magnificent,cheers,Bob

By the way, I would not consider Ohm CLS drivers to be "exotic".

The technology is unique and affordable, perhaps, but if you were to look inside the cage, the actual driver is butt ugly THBOMK. Thank God it is hidden! Its like that episode of Star Trek where that ambassador guy was so ugly he lived in a box and if you opened the box without the protective glasses, you went insane (even Spock)!

Interesting. This is the first I heard of Huff and their exotic driver speaks. Nice that they are US made apparently. Price wise, they appear to live somewhere between the Ohm world and German Physiks.

So where can one go to on the east coast to actually hear them?

The Huff line of speakers use the same driver as the German Physiks line, at somewhat more reasonable costs. The German Physiks might have more elaborate cabinets. I have no idea if they warrant the extra costs. The German Physiks driver is an update of the origianl Walsh design. While it might be better in many regards, it does not go down as deep as the original Ohm Walsh driver and unlike the original Ohm Walsh design might be best supplemented with a sub-woofer. Still, the German Physiks and especially the less expensive Huff design look mighty appealing. I wish I had the opportunity to audtion them.

Hello Gentlemen, Ladies,

May I interject on the conversation? If you have not seen our new site please vist it. Love to have some feedback.

www.hhr-exoticspeakers.com

Also, Regarding the Apogees and newer versions being made by Graz, prices start at $50K and go up to $120K. As for MBL's they start at $55K and go to over $200K on the extremes. (If my memory serves from our last conversations. I do keep in touch with Apogee, MBL and German Physiks)

Oh, BTW, the German Physiks unit is a truncated Walsh cone with a 2" VC and about a 6" nominal diameter, crossed over at 240 Hz to a 10" woofer. The Old F was a 3" vc and a nominal 12" diameter.

Referencing the slow sound and lack of highs on the F's you heard I can relate. If the wrong voice coil, spider and surround are used in a recone as well as not replacing the damping foams and putties, the unit will suffer terribly. No highs, no transient response, muffeled sound, etc. will result. This is what I have been fighting so diligently.

I truly wish you all could feel and hear the magic these speakers are capable of producing. Funny, most women that come to my home/showroom are emotionally impressed, but to my suprise it has been the men that are most affected. Several have actually had tears run down their face and hair stand up from the experience. To me there can be no greater testament of their musical prowess and of shear musical enjoyment.

As always, I humbley wish you all the greatest musical experiences.

Dale Harder

I had heard the Fs in the '70s, and was very impressed by the power, scale and coherence of the sound. Years later, in the early 90s, I bought a pair of mint Fs to compare to the Walsh 5s I had so I could compare them directly.
To me it was not close. The F sounded heavy and slow in the bottom registers by comparison, and recessed on the top. The Walsh 5 was much better balanced and open sounding.
The decision as to which was a keeper was very easy for me, even though at the time the Walsh 5 was worth 4 or 5 times as much as the Fs on the resale market.
I had a very beefy amp (over 600 wpc into 2 ohms), so I had more than enough drive for either speaker.
From that, and later descriptions of the S3, I would say that it is very safe to assume the S3 is much better yet.
YMMV.

It's a nice speaker; good value for the money.

Audiofeil,

What did you think of the 5-S3's?

Mapman,
I heard them at a customer's house with a pair of Pass XA60.5 amps.

I can't give you an honest comparison for 2 reasons. First, I haven't heard a pair of properly driven F's for almost 20 years and it wasn't in the same room as the 5-S3 which is critical. Second, and more importantly, our "sonic memory" is quite poor. Any comparsion based on what was heard 20 years ago is not worth talking about now IMO.

Sorry.

Jtwrace,

No,unfortunately never heard MBL, so I can't compare the sound.

I can compare the two designs however to some degree.

They are similar in that both are inherently omnidirectional using a single yet supplemented wide range driver.

The Ohms however are physically damped/attenuated in the wall facing directions by default to enable easier placement near walls, so their measured sound dispersion pattern is not purely omni-directional.

Also the Ohm Walsh wide range driver reside on top of the cabinet like larger MBL and German Physik for that matter and is supplemented on the high end by a directional super tweeter and ported to extend the low end, whereas I think the large MBL wide range driver is supplemented on the low end by a sub woofer.

Larger German Physiks, which use their own derivation of the Walsh design, are also supplemented like the MBLs on the low end by a sub woofer, I believe.

All these designs will claim a high degree of phase coherency from top to bottom.

Ohm claims that their near full range design produces most of the most important frequency range that most people over 40 can truly hear via the wide range Walsh driver used. The theory is that we lose our ability to hear the highest frequencies recorded in music as we age.

Ohm As and Fs utilized a single Walsh driver for all frequencies but rolled off at ~17Khz, according to the specs on the Ohm site.

Ohms and German Physiks use different derivations of Lincoln Walsh's original driver design (look up "Lincoln Walsh" on wikipedia for more info here). I am less familiar with MBLs omni design but from what I have read on their site it is a more radically different breed of omni design.

One a'goner here whose opinions I respect recently referred to the Ohms as "Blue Collar MBLs", which is probably a fair description in that Ohm Walsh speakers range in cost from $1000 to $6000 depending on target room size and finish, whereas big MBLs cost over $25000 as I recall, so some might consider the Ohms to be "giant killers" and all that goes with that designation.

Ohm is located in Brooklyn NY, USA. MBL and German Physiks are imported from Germany.

Mapman,

Have you ever heard the MBL's? what do you think of them compared to the Ohm's?

Audiofeil,

Have you heard Walsh 5 series 3? What electronics have you heard with them?

I'd be curious for a comparison between 5 series 3 and properly functioning Fs if you've heard both.

The 5-S3 is a nice speaker, a good value.

However, it is not an Ohm F but nothing else is either.

The F is among my favorites of all time which includes Apogee Duetta, Quad 57, and Magnepan 20. You can see I am partial to panels or speakers that replicate the imaging of panels.

One drawback to the F was the lack of SPL. I believe the sensitivity was around 82dB. Very few amplifiers back then could drive them to rock and roll volumes that we were accustomed to vis a vis the other contemporary speakers such as ESS, RTR, Infinity, JBL, etc.

I remember listening to my Phase Linear 700B in 1973 getting sucked dry during the opening heartbeat from Dark Side of the Moon. Even at reasonable SPL the Phase Linear was gasping for breath and out of gas.

Great memories of the speakers and the recreational medication.

Pedrillo,

One other thing of interest is that Ohm's website indicates that newer Walsh 5 speakers, like those like the F5s in my system, can be set to sound identical to original Ohm As using a certain combination of the 4 range level adjustments on the Walsh 5 cage.

My experience with most assertions on the Ohm site is that they are usually on target, for what it is worth.

I tried this with my system and found it a bit bass heavy in my larger 30X20 L shaped listening room. I've used similar settings in that room most recently but with the relative bass levels lowered somewhat.

In the current 12X12 main listening room I currently have the F-5s in (where I have access to best speaker cables, etc.), I lower the bass even further otherwise my fixtures will start to vibrate and I might well be driven out of the room at even moderate to higher level SPLs.

The weight, dynamics and overall impact the Walsh CLS speaks provide though when properly matched to room size is an exhilarating experience you will most likely never get with electostats or planar designs which may otherwise sound similar.

The Ohms and Maggies are the only speaks I can afford that I ever found endearing when set up properly with classical music but the Maggies alone cannot touch the Ohms in regards to overall power and impact.

I participated in some exchanges here on A'gon threads with Dale Harder a few months back, but not recently.

He seems most knowledgeable regarding what it takes to get a pure Walsh driver like those found in old A's and F's operating properly and has shared that info in the form of a guide both here on Agon and on Ebay. It is an extremely challenging task to accomplish in practice, as I understand it. I have also seen ads he has posted for both Ohm As and Fs here on Agon that he has completely refurbished for $5-6 grand (about the same price as a pair of new Ohm Walsh 5's) and they looked very nice. Would love to be able to hear them someday.

The closest things to Ohm As and F's today design wise are probably the larger and extremely expensive German Physics designs and Ohms own Walsh line based on the CLS driver.

I have heard most all Ohm box speaker designs from that era but never As or Fs so I cannot comment on their sound other than saying that many who did hear them remain dedicated.

Newer Walsh CLS speaks are definitely easier to drive (though the larger models still require very good amplification to do their best), are easier to locate relative to walls and are less problematic and more reliable overall.

The newer Ohm CLS speaks have better specifications on paper, but I have heard some Ohm F fans state that they do not think the newer Ohms have the same "magic" as the Fs.

AudioFeil-
what do you think of the new 5-S3? I would like the MBL but too much money. Looking for something that is amazing and these have come up.. Thoughts?

Dale Harder recones original Ohm speakers and builds his own, improved versions of both A and F models. He can be reached at:

dale@hhr-lasers.com or 440-888-2163 in Parma, Ohio

Extremely difficult to recone.

There is only one gentleman I would trust to do mine.

He's located on the east coast near Philadelphia and doesn't get involved anymore due to the time and complexity involved. I even offered him one pair to keep in exchange for one repaired pair (plus his parts cost and labor of course). So far no interest.

But I keep them hoping he'll change his mind.

Bill, Aren't the Ohm F's very difficult to recone? I think I read that there are only a couple of people who can perform this in the USA. Is this the case because I have seen a number of pairs here on the GOn. Bob

Agree Ohm Fs were/are really nice. I think all of the newer stuff, including the 'upgrades' are lifeless and plastic sounding.

I think there is a guy that is building a new version of the model F; seems like he has advertised or sold a pair here on Agon.

I have 2 pairs of Ohm F.

All 4 speakers need repair as the foam disintegrates over time.

With proper power, let's say Chernobyl, they are among the finest loudspeakers I've ever heard.

Ohm A was basically a prototype. It was a 16" Walsh driver as opposed to the 12" Ohm F.

I believe very few pair were actually made available to the public.

I've owned Fs, two pair of Walsh 5s and a pair of Walsh Sats (similar to 100s). They float instruments very well, and are coherent, but the Fs are very recessed on top, and bass heavy except in very large rooms. The 5 is much better, but still a bit recessed in the upper mids, and the top is not as detailed as the best. However, they do present large scale works more realistically than most high end speakers and are highly musical, if given enough room and power. The S3s supposedly improve on the weaknesses of earlier versions. The sound of the Walshes is polarizing for audiophiles, but I think music lovers find them to be very endearing indeed.