You are mixing up reverse channels on SP 8 and 10. SP 11 and Ref 3 and 5 have reverse polarity. I owned an SP 14, nope.
High resolution digital is dead. The best DAC's killed it.
Something that came as a surprise to me is how good DAC's have gotten over the past 5-10 years.
Before then, there was a consistent, marked improvement going from Redbook (44.1/16) to 96/24 or higher.
The modern DAC, the best of them, no longer do this. The Redbook playback is so good high resolution is almost not needed. Anyone else notice this?
Before then, there was a consistent, marked improvement going from Redbook (44.1/16) to 96/24 or higher.
The modern DAC, the best of them, no longer do this. The Redbook playback is so good high resolution is almost not needed. Anyone else notice this?
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erik_squires cleeds: Every Audio Research preamp I've ever seen has a phase inversion function. It can be very useful! Please give specific exampleSP-8; SP-10; SP-11; Ref 3; Ref 5 ... |
erik_squires ... no one has it because almost no one finds any value in it.Every Audio Research preamp I've ever seen has a phase inversion function. It can be very useful! The old McIntosh MX-100 tuner-preamp also had this function, although I don't know if it's included on more recent Mac products. |
“I'm just saying that if the perceived quality of audio reproduction could be improved so dramatically by inverting the polarity of playback it would be a common feature.” Nobody said the sound is improved dramatically. Give me a break. It’s more like a subtle but powerful difference at best. It depends on the recording and the system and the listeners skill at hearing. Why would it be a common feature? The industry doesn’t believe in Polarity, power cords, fuses or wire directionality. So what else is new? |
Switches are nice. Having a L to R phase mismatch is not what we are talking about. I'm just saying that if the perceived quality of audio reproduction could be improved so dramatically by inverting the polarity of playback it would be a common feature. I have to believe that the lack of sensitivity to this means most of us don't have a lot of value for it. |
@erik_squires Are you saying nobody knows or cares what polarity is anyway and wouldn’t notice if they got it wrong. So a quick polarity check with a button is superfluous. Are you saying that you can swap cables quick enough to A and B back and forth for polarity? I find that an amazingly archaic approach that could easily wind up in errors between one speaker and another and one component and another. I listened to a 50K system recently and wound up informing the owner something was out of phase. He was puzzled initially but thanked me after he fixed it. Not sure how long that situation had gone on - a simple switch makes it much easier to check. |
I have pro gear that has a phase inversion button. Kind of useful to quickly check things. I am surprised that nobody has this. Amazing that this hobby values fancy cables and the effort that goes into swapping that fancy stuff out but a simple polarity switch seems too complex! Um, no one has it because almost no one finds any value in it. But rather than swap cables you can always swap your speaker connections. This is something everyone can do. For those of a digital mindset, you can use the public utility SOX to invert absolute polarity on most common formats. Makes it easy to experiment at home. Best,E |
I am not certain this is the same thing, but the Meitner PA6i preamp I had years ago had an absolute phase inversion button on the remote. I could not tell any difference whether the button was selected or not. http://www.museatex.com/pa6i.htm |
"But how do you know whether your system is in correct Absolute Polarity? " |
I've been reading on line concerning absolute versus inverted polarity. Let's say my CDs are mostly (92%) inverted polarity. They sound great. Why? Maybe my equipment, speakers and/or CD player make polarity inversions whose end result inverts polarity. The combination of an inverted polarity CD and an inverted end result from the audio system equals absolute polarity, where two mistakes make it right. So quoted in http://www.absolutepolarity.com/ |
The 3 box set of 180 RCA Living Stereo CDs were remastered and sound fantastic overall. On the level of the Mercury CDs. Also, the Heifetz/Piatagorsky set sounds amazing. Also the Friedman, Browning and Dorfmann sets are very fine listening. The Friedman/Previn Franck/Debussy CD beats the already fine Japanese CD from a decade ago. There are some very fine remasterings being done. I can wholeheartedly recommend the Decca mono box and the Recital box. |
Of course Mercury Living Presence classical CDs were produced by entirely different people than whoever produced the pop stuff. So the jury is still out on those Golden Age classical CDs from the 90s as to their Polarity. The jury is still out on the RCA Living Stereo CDs from the same time period, which frankly don’t sound that great to me. As to their Absolute Polarity, who the hell knows? As for Deutsche Grammophon I would believe that entire label is OOP. By the way when I refer to Absolute Polarity I’m referring to the case where the recording is 180 degrees from the correct Absolute Polarity. |
Polarity of a few recordings Some Correctly phased recordings: Rickie Lee Jones Pop Pop Some inverted CD’s Mary Black No Frontiers Note that Mercury Living Presence are in correct Polarity as opposed to the prior list which stated the opposite. Within labels, polarity on CDs change. Ella Fitzgerald's Clab Hand here Comes Charlie is in correct polarity on the gold DCC disc by Steve Hoffman. |
So many recordings were made or mastered in reverse polarity. Here's an excellent expose of polarity issues pertaining to both equipment and recordings. https://iamyuanwu.wordpress.com/audio/audio-direction-ltd-adl/adl-absolute-polarity/ Equipment is often in reverse polarity, with speakers being a major culprit, both reversed or drivers in and out of polarity to each other. Even two sides of an LP could be different (1 side correct, 1 side wrong). |
This just in! From Clark Johnsen, author of the book on Absolute Polarity, The Wood Effect. From Clark’s Diary over on Positive Feedback from some time in cyberspace,
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Polarity has some effect, but it has more to do with pressurization of the room than imaging IME. If you want to properly test this and you have balanced analog cables in your system somewhere, then there is a simple tool: Just solder a female and male XLR connector together and connect pins 2 and 3 between them. Make 2. Insert this into your cabling. Test with the same track, with and without the adapter. Steve N. Empirical Audio |
While it’s somewhat interesting that instruments can sometimes be in different polarities on the same track and that sometimes tracks can be in different polarities on the same recording what is most important is whether the recording’s Absolute Polarity is Correct or Inverted. Especially if it’s the entire label that’s Inverted! Hel-loo! There isn’t much you can do about the former cases, since those errors were made during the recording session. However, the latter case of *Absolute Polarity* of a CD being right or wrong relative to a playback system that has been determined to be in correct Absolute Polarity (using a test CD). Either a Polarity switch or the patience to change + and - cables would work. The alternative way would be to make the playback system’s *Absolute Polarity* Inverted. Then, presumably at least according to George Louis, most CDs will sound correct Polarity wise. |
Let me cut to the chase. Here’s an excerpt from George Louis’ Polarity List that illustrates just how many cherished audiophile CDs AND AUDIOPHILE LABELS are in Reverse Polarity. Check it out. I’m not saying yea or nay. R Reverse Polarity N Non Inverting Polarity
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As to inverted polarity, I've written several times in these forums concerning recording polarities which can often be wrong, especially for multiple instruments. These can be heard in many Mercury Living Presence recordings of pop engineered by Stan Ricker who I had several conversations with. So, LPs can be way out of correct polarity. I have Brasil 66 LPs where the first issue is in correct polarity and the second pressing is in 180 degree wrong polarity. Also, CDs and digital recordings are not usually in incorrect polarity unless they were recorded that way or remastered incorrectly. I have noticed some of my Heifetz/Piatagorsky CDs have reverse polarity on some tracks. Overall, most of my recordings have good polarity (correct rather than reversed) and have strong imaging, just like high end fuses by SR have a correct and incorrect polarity. |
Stereophile F...d Up on their review of the EAR Acute Classic, beginning with a defective unit (overdriving inputs with a 6 volt output) that sounded terrible, bright and brittle. They did not review the prior units. Everyone else reviewed various models and found them exquisetly analoglike WITH NO HIGH END DISTORTIONS OR BRIGHTNESS. Since I've owned the Acute 1 for 13 years using especially rich sounding tubes, I do not hear brightness. I've heard the Acute III and the Acute Classic. NO BRIGHTNESS even with stock tubes. These are great sounding CD players. I've included several other Classic reviews previously. No mention that it sounds bright or with a peaked treble. I would said so as I've heard so many CD players (probably 100 by now) in my home, at friends homes and at audio shows. The EAR is one sweet sounding player, maybe too forgiving in the highs. |
@audiolouis You make a lot of very verbose claims about audio polarity. Can you point out a specific track or better yet, CD which you feel should make this perfectly obvious to anyone? Preferably something on Tidal. Next, are you stating that that you have solved the Vinyl sounds better issue, and that with proper polarity, digital will sound as good or better than Vinyl? Thanks so much, Erik |
“On a purely random basis that means that digital media and files are heard in the wrong polarity approximately 85% of the time and either 92% wrong or correct when audio systems are set to a fixed playback polarity.” >>>>>That’s the second time you wrote that. Can you explain what you mean by that? It kind of doesn’t make sense. And why would analog be correct Polarity 99% of the time yet digital be incorrect Polarity most of the time.... or am I misinterpreting your statements? |
The Real Reason Some People Prefer Analog To Digital
There’s a problem that has been ignored by the entire music industry which I believe is really important for music-lovers that I think you my want to investigate. Approximately 35 years ago when digital media was introduced to the music consuming public as a media with “Perfect Sound Forever” the music industry made a huge screw up when it got the playback polarity of digital music on CDs and later DVDs, etc. in reversed (inverted polarity). On a purely random basis that means that digital media and files are heard in the wrong polarity approximately 85% of the time and either 92% wrong or correct when audio systems are set to a fixed playback polarity.
The result is that the music played in inverted polarity sounds harsh and two-dimensional. And that’s probably the major reason that some music-lovers still believe (without knowing the real reason) that analog sounds better than digital. Analog media plays in the correct polarity over 99.9% of the time but also sounds bad if played in inverted polarity. It’s difficult if not impossible to make meaningful comparisons of the fidelity and musicality of media and audio components when they aren’t playing in absolute polarity. The better the playback system the easier it is to hear the differences in polarity. Confusion over polarity may cause music-lovers to expend needless time and money trying to smooth out the irritating and flat sound of digital media when the real problem is music played in inverted polarity.
This should be an object lesson on how an entire industry with its experts and electrical engineers can get it wrong and not do anything about if for over 35 years and counting! So it should be an object lesson that the entire industry that creates recorded music and is based upon scientific principles continues to mostly get polarity wrong.
I've written two monographs that go into great detail about the problem at: http://www.AbsolutePolarity.com andhttp://www.PolarityGeorge.com. If you or anyone you know might be interested in developing ThePerfect Polarizer™ that will detect and correct polarity in real-time, then please forward this email to them/encourage them to contact me, because I believe it could be accomplished with AI/App. Now, do you want to be part of the problem or part of the solution?”
Respectfully submitted,
George S. Louis, Esq., CEO Digital Systems & Solutions President San Diego Audio Society (SDAS) Website: www.AudioGeorge.com Email: AudioGeorge@AudioGeorge.com Phone: 619-401-9876
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georgehifi4,837 posts02-03-2019 1:47pm If you could hear what I’ve heard with my ears.You say you can hear a difference in the direction of an ac mains fuse, you hear nothing! >>>>>You get an F in directionality. God gave you two ears and one mouth for a reason. Audioquest controls directionality in their higher end power cords for a reason. And I don’t mean marketing. You agree power cords are part of an AC circuit, yes? |
fleschler The Ear Actute uses the WM8740 which is a Delta Sigma https://statics.cirrus.com/pubs/proDatasheet/WM8740_v4.4.pdf The Acute II and III uses the later higher spec’d WM8741 which are also Delta Sigma. https://statics.cirrus.com/pubs/proDatasheet/WM8741_v4.3.pdf They had quite a peaked up treble that begun at 5khz which could make them bright to listen to. https://www.stereophile.com/images/217ear.EARfig04.jpg Stereophile: From this you can probably understand why there was 3 different versions of the Acute. Cheers George |
all things being equal, higher rez files can sound a little better overall. but, of course, all things are rarely equal. i agree with the whole recording quality being more significant than the digital format, but that’s only half the equation. the 800 pound gorilla in the room is native recording source resolution. that’s where you find optimal sound. i always try to listen to the least mucked up source. this goes equally for analog too. give me 1/2" 30ips tape if that is what the recording started life as, or redbook if that’s where it started. direct to disc vinyl is also phenomenal and can compete directly with the best tape. my MSB Select II has a hybrid dac which optimizes both pcm and dsd whatever resolution. it is astonishingly good on redbook, and does a great job with MQA. but my favorites are consistently the native resolution if i have a way of determining that. i have dozens of native dxd (352/24) and quad dsd files and those are pretty awesome when the recording quality is also superior. if you think redbook sourced recordings are equal (especially as the music gets more complex) you have work to do. and not every system will equally reveal media differences. so my experience and realities might not equally apply to all. YMMV and just my 2 cents. |
If you could hear what I’ve heard with my ears.You say you can hear a difference in the direction of an ac mains fuse, you hear nothing! Mark Levinson No 30.6 4 x PCM1704-K + 2 x SHARC ADSP-21061L " The Mark Levinson No.30.6's measured performance is about as good as it can get. No wonder I liked its sound so much".—John Atkinson The ML 30.6 is now 20 years old and still a magnificent sounding R2R Multibit dac. Only last month I had the pleasure of listening to one up against my Linn CD12, using the Linn as a transport there was a "poopteenth" in it between them, your lucky to have it velveteen. Cheers George |
velveteen1 posts02-02-2019 8:24pmI love my digital front end, with r2r technology! I couldn't imagine my redbook CDs sounding any better than they do now....... Mark Levinson No 31.5 Mark Levinson No 30.6 It’s kind of hard to image what you haven’t heard. If you could hear what I’ve heard with my ears. |
http://www.earyoshino.com/images/Reviews/HiFiChoice_Oct_2016.pdf The Stereophile review was based on a defective unit that had a 6v hot output rather than a 2v which resulted in distortion. It was sent back repaired and the reviewer grungingly claimed it was worth the money now. |
breezer - Since 2006, I've been using an EAR Acute CD player. It has large D getter, earliest version Amperex 6922 tubes, a seriously upgraded power cord and sits on Stillpoints Ultra-minis. Now on their fourth version, my original Acute sells for 1/3 the price, between $1800 to $2000. Absolutely worth it, unless you want to stream. The subsequent versions include external DACs and higher resolutions like 192/24 instead of my 96/24. The latest version is $6795 http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/EAR-Acute-Classic.htm I've heard it and it sounds very similar to my original with STOCK tubes. Quite an accomplishment. |
You have not heard every DAC, so making sweeping statements is not useful. Yes it is totally useful, and you can get off "your own product protection horse", as I did say every dac I've heard, and I hear pretty much a new dac every couple of weeks. Other vendors have brought their DAC's over (I wont mention) and they lasted 30 seconds in the system because they sounded so bad. Even the other vendors wanted me to remove them.Wow! you must sell so many, sound like nothing but an ad to me. |
