Ddraudt, I love your posting which saves me from the bile that my saying more would build. |
Hi All--
Like Audiolabyrinth, I don't see any problem with what Badman is saying. While I am sure Rick's cables sound excellent, he is NOT saying they sound bad. His problem is something Rick is claiming that he want to be proven wrong. The onus is on Rick to prove him right or wrong.
As far as I know, such tests/eperiments should have recorded data backing them. I also think that people who make such bold claims should know that they can be challenged any time. Proving one right or wrong requires more than just mere words from the mouth.
That being said, I hope to hear Rick's cabels one day. I am sure, like those raving about them, I would be blown away. |
I think these cables make good systems great ...and great systems even better.they are surely the best i have ever had in my system ...and the last... |
@ Calvin:
Seriously? Jesus has nothing better to do than inspire cable "technology"? Never mind millions of starving kids, Jesus has audiophiles to take care of!
@ The "It's okay because it's just marketing" people- being marketing isn't a license to lie. There are laws against that sort of thing.
I'll point out that those who have "seen" the measurements have said nothing that would indicate they saw anything with meaning, only that they saw some claims Rick made- and why are there so many people so buddy-buddy with Rick posting hundreds of times in this thread? You'd think that "These are great" would suffice, but no, the shills are exceedingly active and aggressively defending obvious lies. |
Mapman I sent you a message via Audiogon. Perhaps it did not go through or maybe you have a new address since you began here. |
Hey fellas, I am trying the the luminance amplifier direct to the the resonessence invicta dac. Using the high fidelty ultimate reference cables. It's sounds great. We will be modding my speakers and doing some tweaks to my equipment to get it sounding even better. We have some brass points under the speakers and we will be adding a little device on the tweeter. I'm going to try to get it to sound even better. This has been a great experience. Rick has consulted with me on my audio system and some of the smallest changes can make huge improvements. I now understand why a lot of you guys on this forum have customized equipment. I totally understand. One more thing. This Dac is really good!!! the luminance amplifier is very open and powerful with great detail. Really surprised me. No pre amp in the chain going straight to the dac. |
Calvin, welcome to what the possiblys are with no pre- amp's! |
Hi Albert,
I had not checked my agon inbox in awhile, but it is there. I did not see any actual corresponding email sent to my provider, where I check daily, like in past. I might have just missed it. I did get it though and responded. |
Calloway, Yes, I agree with you.
Calvinj, Sounds like you are having too much fun! like me. Great!!!
4orreal, One difficulty in speaking on magnetic cables is that they are very different than electrical cables. The principals and function are different so the can't be thought of as "cables" in the traditional sense.
If one applies electrical thinking to magnetic conduction it will not make sense. Rick & friends are working on a vid to help explain mag conduction more simply. should be out soon. And yes, when you hear them you will be blown away ( and you'll want them very much).
Tbg, I know it is frustrating to have people rant about unfamiliar topics but, as you know, these are a new and different (superior) approach. Magnetic technology is know by so few that there is a learning curve for everyone. Enjoy the Music D |
It's a safe bet that there is a concrete relationship between magnetism and electricity. Any electromagnet is proof that the relationship exists. How to apply it in reverse exactly in teh interest of "better sound quality" is beyond me, but its a topic that I am willing to learn more about.
In return, read up on Lincoln Walsh. Most people including myself still do not understand that well enough to apply the principles properly for good sound, even after all these years, but luckily there are at least a few still around who do. |
Ddraudt, perhaps I am too outraged when a pretender claims other is pretending. At least I know that the HFCables work quite well. The other guy has no substance at all and the purpose of his posting is all too evident, at least to me. |
Good-day Madman,
Speaking as a member of a small research, development and manufacturer that participates in the audio industry, I find your theories and claims on third-party testing to be ‘ridiculous rubbish’. I personally was extremely hesitant to post to this thread, but since you appear to be on a quest to do damage here, I feel the need to voice an opinion, as well as provide the public some additional information from industry experience.
Neutral laboratory testing is the only way to make available unbiased evidence that the technical approach and science dedicated to the product is functional, hence meeting the goals of the engineers, designers, investors, et all involved with the product and/or technology.
In High-End Audio, the cost of third-party testing is extremely expensive. First and foremost, a company must go to lengths to locate and hire the optimum engineer who has the responsibility of establishing the testing methodology and performance validation criterion. Fortunately, in our case, we have a Doctorate in Engineering as a member of our company whose primary focus is developing and/or instituting the necessary design and direction of testing, which is generally targeted to increase the knowledge and understanding of the technology being applied.
Therefore, anyone who spends the financial capital required for third-party testing for the sole purpose of marketing propaganda, in hopes of providing the public a small measure of supporting evidence that their science is of technical merit, is just plain ‘nuts’! That company could easily take those investment dollars and develop a strategic sales and marketing campaign, toss up a few charts and graphs on their website to reinforce their claims, and sell more products, versus a limited posting of third-party testing results to their website.
Add to that, the cost and time involved with selecting and hiring the specialized laboratory. Then there’s researching and qualifying the information about the facility, reviewing history of the lab, identifying test equipment, confirming calibration dates for the test equipment and, in some categories of audio, the lab personnel must provide extensive documentation on the acoustic environment used to support the test; and the list goes on and on.
Our corporate goal involving third-party testing is to make sure the technology is on track in order to expand the science of which we are committed to and believe in.
Laboratories, like all business, have their own reputation of which to build and grow on. I personally have never heard of a lab cheating the test results just to appease their clients. Obviously, you sir, may have never attempted to acquire, been involved with, or have ever paid out of pocket for third-party research.
Badman, did you ever review a detailed lab report on a breakthrough discovery based on a new-found technology? It would take a good engineer at least a week on the first pass through; chemistry reports on all the materials, corporate and engineering reviews, compiling of all the data that again, must be re-analyzed to assist in verifying and proving the results, which, of course, always leads to more variables and more unanswered questions.
My guess is this test was performed to prove Rick Schultz and his company were onto something new, heading in the right direction, and to verify the evolution and functionality of Magnetic Conduction Technology leading to their Patents and “Not to sell products”.
Whether you agree or disagree on the actual testing methods employed, your argument is based on your knowledge and/or opinion. Since obvious hostilities still exist, and before time is invested proving whether you may or may not be aware of newer testing methods or procedures, I have a couple of questions for you.
Are you, or do you, work for a business competitor? Do you have the educational and/or professional background, and if so, what type and in which career? Since you are calling out a brother, claiming fraud (the highest of all crimes in audio), and nobody knows exactly who you are, why not provide us with more information about you?
It is no secret that Mr. Schultz is a long time friend. We have shared technical information, partnered in a few innovations and occasionally discuss general business within the Audio Industry. In my opinion, he chose to use a well known University to conduct the testing and posted a very small portion of the overall test results to their web site.
I am confident that there is a great deal of information that has not been disclosed for public consumption, which would indicate that you do not have all the details required to fully understand the methodology leading to the end result.
In closing I might add that Rick Schultz is also one heck of an educated sales person who does not need to resort to any illegitimate practices or bogus marketing techniques in order to earn a living. If you really desire to see the testing parameters with a full disclosure, I would first pick up the phone and simply speak to Rick, or a representative of his company, and NOT disparage his name and/or attempt to discredit the Company on a well read public forum.
If you have a grievance or objection with me for expressing my opinion here, you are more than welcome to pick up the telephone and call me, as meaningful conversations are always welcome.
Very truly yours,
Robert Maicks
Star Sound Technologies, LLC |
Mapman wrote,
"It's a safe bet that there is a concrete relationship between magnetism and electricity. Any electromagnet is proof that the relationship exists. How to apply it in reverse exactly in teh interest of "better sound quality" is beyond me, but its a topic that I am willing to learn more about."
Current in a wire produces a magnetic field. You remember the right hand rule. Does a magnetic field interfere with or influence an audio signal? Does an audio signal have mass? If the audio signal could be influenced by magnets it should have mass, right? |
I hope all is good here, Right or wrong, it did not matter, this is the High-fidelity fan's thread, That was like going to a chevy site and saying, hey, ford is better!, Really!, not very smart, Enjoy! |
Pretender? Based upon what exactly? I call BS on a BS claim.
You can't reduce 14% of a loaf of bread by removing the diamonds from it- there weren't any there in the first place.
There's certainly a relationship between magnetism and electrical fields, this is obvious and has been applied to cables for a very long time, generally as low-pass filters, that's what the ferrite add-ons do, reducing RFI through added inductance. Most PC monitor cables have them, as do many power cords and other things.
However, unless these are serious low-pass filters on the cables and are creating severe high frequency rolloff, they wouldn't reduce THD, and even if they DID reduce THD at some frequency due to the rolloff, a proper test would account for the rolloff and adjust the generated harmonics accordingly- IOW, a proper methodology wouldn't show an advantage from high inductance due to magnetism.
IMD could potentially be reduced by the same mechanism, but that's only if these are REALLY insanely nonlinear cables, acting as exceedingly high-value inductors, we're talking fractions of a henry, not millihenries, if line level. At speaker level millihenries would be sufficient to cause that level of rolloff, but it would be exceedingly extreme to believe that he's introduced that much inductance, and the extreme rolloff at the high end would be noticed as a severe negative by the vast majority of listeners (and 100% of educated listeners). We're talking several dB at a minimum, a severe and highly noticeable change over a broad frequency range.
Even IF this were the case and they were so dramatically nonlinear (a problem vastly larger than THD and IMD whose audibility is variable and frequently a non-issue), a proper test methodology would have indicated this severe problem. The lack of any language about the testing other than the absurd claims should be a red flag.
Using magnets around audio is not a new idea, it's been tried every which way. The primary way it would apply to cables, is to make them worse, not better, if having an influence in the audio band. One exception is the utilization of a transformer- many reputable transformer manufacturers publish measurements too. Transformers can reduce system noise and achieve some other benefits but do introduce their own distortion and other issues.
So, take your pick- either his cables are badly broken and nonlinear, and the "testing" misleadingly ignores this to give him his claims, or the numbers are made up. There is simply no way for the claims to be true under legitimate testing. |
@tbg@ddraudt. Yup. You have to wonder when a person rants and they never one time mention if they like the sound or they even talk about sound. Well that's telling. Anyway. I am listening straight from my dac to a luminance amplifier. I got some brass points under my speakers. It helped ground them better. I also got my speakers positioned properly. The headroom on my sound is really good. I put in an album called Two Shade by piano player Gerald Clayton. He comes from a family of successful musicians. He has some great musical arrangements. There is a lot of speed up and slowing down of drums, cymbals and piano. The piano has a rich deep earthy tone using the amplifier. The high fidelity cables are also starting to sound better the longer they are in. This album showcases the speed of the cable. The drum and pianos are playing at frenzy all at the same time at different speeds and these cables play it perfectly. It's bursting fast when it needs to be but also melodically slow when the musicians pace slows down. There is also a three dimensionality when I'm sitting in the sweet spot listening. Cymbals are telling on this album. They are rapid fire fast with proper decay. They give you a metal shimmer without being glassy. When there is a lot lot going on in a song this cable and amplifier catch it all. I been listening for the last 2 hours. Happy listening!!! Do you guys have any music suggestions that were recorded well I will listen to anything. It's about the music to me. |
@audiolabyrinth. We are not high fidelity fans we are lovers of sound. Lol. When you HEAR the truth you repeat it for all to hear lol. I'm not in it to say I have this cable and that gear. I love the music. From the time I heard "Me and Mrs Jones" by Billy Paul when I was four till now. It's all about the music of course "In High Fidelity" Lol. |
Badman, why don't you just give it up? You are not having the impact that you sought. For one thing there is no reason to believe you know what you are talking about, and for another most of us believe what we hear when using these cables. |
Badman wrote,
"Using magnets around audio is not a new idea, it's been tried every which way. The primary way it would apply to cables, is to make them worse, not better, if having an influence in the audio band."
How can magnets have an effect on the audio signal since the audio signal has no mass? |
The war goes on!, white flag anybody?, you have some very valid points that I do not disagree with, however, at this point, what is your motive for doing all this?, you may very well be correct?, If you cannot tell these people your motive, then, take a step back, and leave these tormented people alone. |
The solution to anyone who challenges ones beliefs is not for them to just go away, but rather defend one's position.
No matter how strongly one believes anything, that alone does not make it so. |
Mapman, There is a frequent argument here and on other forums that consists of some claiming that the "laws of physics" prove that something is impossible versus those that argue man's "laws of physic" are useful for engineers to make use of in designing things, such as bridges and electrical circuits, but certainly do not totally determine what happens. We don't know everything about how things behave. Robert Maicks above takes the middle route namely, validly run tests by competent people. I support that, if and only if, the measures validly assess the quality you seek, in this case sounding good. So in reality what we hear is the only real measure.
Badman is always lecturing about THD as though that were a valid measure. I think most of us put that measure to rest as invalid long ago. He thinks he is challenging those who tout the HFC cables, but many of us dismiss his challenge as invalid on its base. Badman has no basis as a critic and many reject his "laws of physics" basis.
I'm not going away, I'm just going to ignore him and wish that he were not disrupting what had been a constructive thread. |
Clearly, there is enough uncertainty around on both sides of most "next best tweak" debates, including this one, to warrant multiple opinions and viewpoints.
THe truth usually falls in the middle somewhere with this kind of thing. The middle can be a hard place to understand. |
Like throwing gasoline on a fire! I did warn all of you not to read and definitely not to respond to off topic trouble makers. I am mildly amused by your replies to this troll so thanks for that. I have not been reading the stupid posts but the responses are fun au be it a waste of time like arguing with a rock. Truth, information, logic, kindness, anger
all pointless to empty vessels looking only for responses of any kind to validate not having a life. Perhaps your all enjoy calling idiots idiots but scratching has only made an ugly wound uglier. Remember BadManners
give himself a point every time you respond. suggest Ignore him and enjoy the music. D |
Calvinj I also have the Luminance amp, I am presuming you have the KST-150?
I was getting spectacular sound through a Densen B200 pre into the KST-150, but when I went DAC volume direct I have really lost some of the magic. Its a cheap no-name DAC though, not anywhere near the quality of the Invicta. |
"enjoy the music"
Always good advice. That's all that really matters in these parts. |
Mapman wrote,
"Enjoy the music." If I'm not mistaken that's exactly what the bandleader told the people gathered on the Titanic's deck while the ship was about to roll over and plunge to the bottom of the sea as the band prepared to strike up a rousing chorus of Don't let the Sun Catch you Crying. |
Ok, well then don't. Just stay off any sinking ships..... |
@agisthos. Yes it is the kst 150. The invicta dac is amazing on the kst 150. This is the best dac I have ever heard period. Smooth and detailed while being musical. I am happy with the combination. This one is on loan until my invicta mirus arrives next week. It is the version without the headphone amp. Highly recommended. No pre amp no problems. Lol.
@tbg@DDraudt.lets get back on topic. The guy has precisely done what he originally set out to do. That is to get us to talk about everything except for actually how they sound and perform. Look as a lawyer when I can't win an argument I talk about something else. People want to know if they sound great. They do sound great. Are they faster than any cable I have heard? Yes they are. Can they handle complex passages with multiple instruments? Yes they do. Do they do voices well. Yes they are exceptional in this area. Are the natural sounding? Yes they are. Do the get the timbre of the instrument right? Yes the do. Does it all come together to make beautiful music? Yes. Let's get back to the music. Let him look in the mirror and argue with himself. I run into a lot of clients who think they know what they are doing and no matter what you do you can't change their minds. Some learn automatically. Some learn eventually. Some never learn. We have to accept that he will never learn and move on. Happy listening please!!! |
Gents, can we please go back to the thread? I thought the logic "if you can not measure it, you can not hear it", especially in cabling, does not merit to be the sole one and should not. Simply because our hearing is more complex than the best instruments can capture and, often forgotten in heated discussions, that hearing is subjective.
My journey in this bottomless pit (sic) in cabling started as non believer (approaching from my left brain as IEEE engineer, WRONG!) so some of the non believers have my sympathy (to a certain point). I fully second the dogma: try it yourself.
Whilst I agree more active contributors on this particular thread would make it more plausible than the usual suspects (and maybe they would less use this forum as a chat message platform, you guys can simply pm each other, no?), the credibility of some posters like Norm (TBG) should not be treated with disdain. I have read Norm's reviews for many years and have talked to him occasionally. If you did the same, you will find that Norm is a very knowledgeable audiophile that really helps people to find their audio nirvana. He seems indeed very excited about HFC.
If HFC products were much cheaper - and I believe there will be cheaper versions/alternatives in the future - then those sneaky remarks about paying less than retail would not exist.
Please put your ego and jealousy a bit aside...thank you!
|
Geoffkait,
Because the physical carrier of the signal has mass. |
Sabai wrote,
"Because the physical carrier of the signal has mass."
The carrier is either copper or silver and usually of high purity, therefore not magnetize-able. Nice try. |
So in the interest of fair discussion, I have no doubt these are "innovative" and very unique wires. That alone says something
THe question for me is always value. What are the options and how do they compare? Which offer high value.
For example, I currently use DNM Reson ICs, which I think are the cat's meow when things are going right. They also use a fairly different and innovative design, and can be had for much less. THey are unshielded, so sometime that alone can be a challenge. But I have managed to get excellent performance out of these, with a few inexpensive tweaks, even with my low output phono setup.
Has anyone compared the HF wires to DNM Reson? I would be interested in hearing observations. |
@tbg@ddraudt@jazzonthehudson. I have been guilty of always switching cables in and out. Rick asked me to keep the cables in so they can settle. The system is really starting to open up even more. More fuller I have not moved the cables out of the system for a week straight. I been playing my system a lot. I think the resonessence dac and the high fidelity ultimate reference is a perfect match. The system has more heard room the more I let it play. I'm listening to hailey Loren. She is an excellent female vocalist with a great band and really good material. I was just told by my dealer that my mirus dac just arrived from Canada just now. I will pick it up today to listen to it and start breaking it in. I can give him the loaner back now. I think it's going to take a couple of weeks to burn it in. The voices with this dac and the high fidelity ultimate reference cables sound lovely. Lol. I'm going to try to pick it up tonight. I'm pretty amazed with sound and no pre amp in the chain at all. I'm going to do some tweaks and see if I can get it better. I don't know how it measures but it SOUNDS GREAT!!!!! Lol. @ddraudt did you hear Kendrick Scott Oracle "Cycling into Reality" song on his "Conviction" album. There is a live performance of him doing it on youtube. The guy is an amazing percussionist. |
If you took the time to read Ricks patents you would learn that he describes the use of an alloy that is ferro magnetic as a key conductive ingredient not the 2 materials you mentioned. The CT-1 conductor is made from highly permeable alloy that, once attached to the connectors, becomes fully magnetized. Nice try Geoff...Tom |
Tom wrote,
"If you took the time to read Ricks patents you would learn that he describes the use of an alloy that is ferro magnetic as a key conductive ingredient not the 2 materials you mentioned. The CT-1 conductor is made from highly permeable alloy that, once attached to the connectors, becomes fully magnetized."
Very good, Tom. So I'll ask the question again: How can a magnet or magnetic field influence the audio signal if the audio signal has no mass? |
I've read HF wires are not copper or silver but rather a custom alloy of some sort, possibly similar to Mu Metal. |
Mapman, yes that is what Tom said. |
If the alloy in HF cables is like mu metal it's conductivity is around a fourth of that of copper. I'll take the copper, thank you very much. |
From what I read, the secret sauce is in the combo of the conductor material used and the application of magnetism. So probably not valid to consider just one without the other.
Definitely a unique design. That's about all I can tell for sure from here. |
Well I see we will keep trying to convince those who might never learn. Listened to my new resonessence Invicta Mirus Dac tonight. It works perfect with Rick's cable. I got it on a suggestion from Robert Spence. It sounds great. I never thought I would go to a dac. This has made me a believer. I was listening to blues artist lightnen Hopkins. A True blues Texas Legend. Blues Hoot is the album. Love the sound of my system. Settling in Dac and amplifier with no pre amp. I usually like tubes but this amplifier within tubes. Is really starting to grow on me. I have listened to system about a total 5 hours today. Love the harmonica on this album. Well I think my cable search has ended with The high fidelity ultimate reference. It's been a long search. I love the music and what cables do to help it naturally be produced. I guess I will let the technical guys battle it out. While I listen stand back and smile. Lol. Ddraudt I will be in Austin next month. I want to stop by and listen. |
if magnetic fields were good for the sound then the copper or silvers wires would do just fine, you know, what with the induced magnetic field arond the conductor that results from current flowing through the conductor. Besides, wouldn't the mu metal *absorb* the magnetic field? I mean, i'm pretty sure that's kinda what mu metal does. Hel-loo! |
Hahahah! Calvin says some might never learn-
Hm- you mean basics like that magnetism and electric transmission are inseparably intertwined? 30 seconds on google will start explaining the details for anyone interested- adding a magnet is a source of high frequency loss, is the halfway cliffs notes version, but there are variations possible that are much more complex.
Another basic: cables don't meaningfully contribute to system THD and thus cannot lower system THD by any meaningful amount.
This is the first-semester stuff people. A tiny bit of intellectual curiosity would serve the denizens here well.
A magnetic or paramagnetic conductor could be made inductive as per my previous post (as could a Cu/Ag/Au/Al Conductor), but a proper technical evaluation would reveal nonlinearity as the issue driving lowered high frequency distortion components (not to mention that most distortion in typical audio systems is relatively low order and wouldn't be as proportionally affected by severe inductance)
What exactly is the deal you have to promote these cables Norm? Is it the same as you being an Emilar dealer but not registering as such, while hyping their products? A known shill with the gall to accuse others of nefarious motivation- classy.
Perhaps instead of questioning the points made from a position of ignorance, the people here should question "Do my assumptions and the claims associated with this product hold water? How can we validate what we're being told?"
It's not magic, there's an art component to hifi but the claims I take issue with are exceedingly easy to understand. It's obvious that those defending the position assumed by Rick don't even know what THD and IMD are, and why a passive device can't inherently reduce them without an extremely severe and problematic lowpass filter component (that any legitimate testing facility would find on their first test).
My credibility or any lack thereof comes from what I say. Nobody can offer a sound technical reason that anything I've said is inaccurate, because it's really simple stuff for anyone who's spent more than 30 seconds trying to understand the basis for how cable performance impacts system behavior.
For what it's worth, I do occasionally sell hifi to friends- the last few things I sold were all speakers (recouping parts cost from my experimentation- they're typically sold at less than the MSRP of the drivers) One esoteric cable seller has no effect on my life- I have no meaningful skin in the game, as most things I sell are at a loss and I enjoy building. My personal income is defined by a "regular" job, not hifi. Anyone who thinks that this tiny cable seller has any meaningful impact on the bottom line of anyone else is speaking from a position completely ignorant of the hifi marketplace, which is highly fragmented and not really based around standard market share metrics. |
Are voices clearly discernable with these, even when buried in the mix? That is usually the first thing i listen for with various ics. Dnms are champs at this. |
@mapman. Voices are clear, natural and realistic with the high fidelity. ultimate reference cables. It's an area where this cable clearly separates itself from others. |
The music is on as I await travelers to Austin in search of audio nirvana.
High Fidelity Cables are too great to be believed and My system sings.
I think one of the hardest idea to get across is these are NOT wires, they don't act or sound like wires. If one has only heard wires they have no idea what we are talking about.
Cal, Love to have you visit. Listening to "The Benoit/Freeman Project 2" just now, Nice, about 7.5 or 8 of ten on recording quality scale and a lot of lively tunes.
@ddraudt did you hear Kendrick Scott Oracle "Cycling into Reality" song on his "Conviction" album.
I'll check it out. D |
Correction- Exemplar not Emilar. |
Badman, I heard all of this in EE classes and then I took physics. |
Geoffkait, if you know that current flowing induces a magnetic field, why were you asking about how magnets can affect something without mass? Ever run a magnet along a cable attached to your speakers?
What I don't understand is how a constant magnetic field from the magnets can affect noise from EMI or RFI, especially without also affecting the audio signal. |
Well once again back to the music. Lol. @Ddraudt. I'm going to order the Benoit freeman/project 2. Thanks for the suggestion. I'm going to check it out. The High fidelity ultimate Reference is special. I'm amazed by the speed and decay of notes. Very special. I will let you know when I'm out your way. The luminance amplifier is doing a great job coming straight from the resonessence mirus dac. Rick made a great suggestion on this set up. It's the little things that can make the difference. No CD player no preamp no problem. Lol. |
