Rick Schultz has garnered recent acclaim here for his cables. It is unfortunate that he was ungracious when I recently purchased a pair of Steinmusic Harmonizers from him. One was damaged. He admitted he was reselling them and did not open them to inspect before shipping. Besides refusing any compensation he was surprisingly disrespectful in his communication with me -- totally unprovoked. I would have expected a wiser response from him. |
Geoffkait,
Because the physical carrier of the signal has mass. |
Regarding Rick Schultz and all the hoopla around High Fidelity cables. How much imagination and how much money does it take to put a magnet in a cable? Not very much. I'm no Albert Einstein and I have been using neodymium magnets in cables for years.
High Fidelity says the whole difference is where the magnets are placed and only one cable genius knows how to do that -– and it's so special it is worthy of a patent. And then they say the geometry makes the whole difference with the inference that the average Joe could never hope to wrap his small mind around it all -- ah, the all-important geometry. Don't even try to understand it. Anyway, it's proprietary.
If you step out of the cable box and make your own cables you may find out what you read from cable makers is simply Cable Babble designed to get you to part with your hard-earned greenbacks. Can the average audiophile go up against 20 years of amazing knowledge from a professional cable maker? Absolutely. Ozzy proved it. I have a good chuckle when I read all the marketing and all the hoopla and all the cheerleaders in the background with their cable pompoms raised in unison.
Cable making is not quantum physics in spite of all the mystery that cable makers surround their trade with to bewitch the gullible. Cable making is simple mechanical engineering and empiricism -- in spite of all the Cable Babble marketing talk designed to convince you that you need to be Albert Cable Einstein to make a good cable -- or an extraordinary one.
Did you ever ask yourself the question, if all those cables offered on Audiogon are so great why are they on offer? Do all those discerning audiophile sellers just happen to be selling for a friend with a second audio room they are closing down? Just look at all the mediocre cables produced by all those genius Albert Cable Einstein makers -- the game-changing SX followed by the SX Super followed by the SX Ultra followed by the SX Reference. You can bet your life that ZX will be hard on the heels of SX with ZX Super and ZX Ultra and ZX Reference following in due course.
Cable makers are some of the biggest smoke and mirror salesmen I have ever seen. In the vast majority of cases the astronomical prices you will pay for "top" cables have no relation to the rewards reaped once you make your own cables for a small fraction of the price and compare. You may find yours make the others look pale by comparison -- and you will shake your head in disbelief.
Let's talk about speaker wires. I would bet if you make your own silver speaker wires as per Ozzy's formula or my formula you will come up with a gem for under $200 that will easily beat any multi-thousand dollar speaker wires from any of the much-lauded and frequently-reviewed "heavy hitters" including High Fidelity, Synergistic Research, Nordost, Tara and others, with all of their high-priced superlatives thrown in free of charge. The real heavy hitting is done in the marketing department. The name of the game is to become The Cable of the Month.
As Ozzy has so keenly observed, it is all about the conductor in spite of all the BS-baffles-brains marketing talk about special Magnetic Conduction technology (watch out for those capital letters), patents and patents pending, ground-breaking technology, reduced distortion from all that nasty "noise", signal flow, Litzes and ribbons, geometries and configurations, tuning bullets, improved tuning bullets, terminations, active shielding, dialectrics, OCC 99.999999999 copper, cryogenic treatment on campus, 10 years in the making. But there's nothing like the hallowed word "game-changer" to rivet the attention of hordes of audiophiles. Just what the marketing doctor ordered.
Cable makers will say anything to make you think you'll need jaw surgery when your bottom mandible ends up on the floor after you audition their latest cable. They will say absolutely anything to get you to part with your hard-earned greenbacks. |
Calvinj,
You stated, "I knew it had to be something when there was no comment about the sound at all." My comments were all about the sound and how much the sound is worth. A pair of speaker cables is worth $7,500? You must be joking. I mean, we're talking about 2 wires with some neodymium magnets. We are not talking about nuclear physics. You can make your own stunning speaker wires, Ozzy and I and others have done it, for less than $200 including the magnets.
This is about venting about the outrageous prices some cable makers put on their cables -- including Synergistic Research, Gabriel Gold, Tara, Nordost and High Fidelity, among others. There are folks who can afford to throw money at any audio product without batting an eyelash. And there are others who cannot. It's as simple as that.
Why in the world would anyone even think of spending $7,500 on a pair of speaker wires if they could make their own for less than $200 and have $7,300 left over in their audio budget? |
In June of this year Jack Roberts of Dagogo wrote a review of the High Fidelity Cable CT-1 Ultimate Reference Rhodium Plus Power Cord.
Here is his conclusion: "I don’t think I have written a power cord review and not talked about how dead quite or black the background is. That’s because these power cords simply made my system sound better in every way. Maybe the one way to sum up this review is to let you know that the High Fidelity Cable power cords allowed my system to have an uncanny sense of realism that was a revelation to this reviewer."
This is worth $12,900 for one power cord? You got to be joking. |
Jmcgrogan2, Calloway and Mapman,
My system sounds stunning. I have Raidho C1.1 speakers, an Atma-Sphere power amplifier (fully loaded), an Audio Horizons preamplifier (fully loaded), a PS Audio DS DirectStream DAC, a PS Audio PerfectWave transport, a Shunyata Triton power conditioner, a power regenerator, an isolation transformer and a REL subwoofer. Room treatments include Audio Magic PEAs (3 units) and Wave Stabilizers (2 units), Shakti Hallographs, Synergistic Research ART (plus extra bowls), Steinmusic Harmonzers (4 units), IPC Acoustic Energizers (5 units), QRT Symphony Pros (3 units), QRT ElectroClear, Bybee GG Speaker Bullets (8 units), 10 Schumann Resonance devices, 4 ion generators and a variety of my own DIY tweaks and accessories including my own DIY HFTs. Cables are DIY, Elrod and Shunyata. Conservatively, I have invested over $70,000 in my system -- so far. I'm not quite done yet.
And what are your systems like? |
Calvinj,
You stated "We are imagining what we hear." And you missed my point completely. My point is simply that you can make your own cables -- as good as, or better than, the best out there -- for a tiny fraction of the cost. |
Calloway,
Thanks for the suggestion, but I live in Asia. It is buy and try for me, alas. Very costly, needless to say. I have gear shipped in principally from the States and the UK and I bring things over from Singapore, as well. Singapore is great. I bought my Raidhos there from a wonderful dealer. I was lucky they had a pair of pristine C1.1 demos in stock when the D1s came out a couple of years ago. The D1s are great but they would have been over-kill for the system. It's already very resolving. |
Ddraudt,
Sad Sabai with the empty life here. I believe my points are well made regarding the price/performance ratio of cables. If I look at my system and consider the components, the tweaks and accessories, and the cables that have visited my home, the worst price/performance ratio has consistently been with cables.
In the case of High Fidelity where you have high-performance cables, and this goes for so many other cable makers, some that I have already cited in this thread, the prices are outrageous. I mean $12,900 for a single power cord and $7,500 for a pair of speaker wires? Give me a break. If you are OK with this sort of thing, no skin off my teeth. But $50,000 for 4 power cords?
There is a very attractive alternative. You can make your own high-performance cables for a tiny fraction of the cost -- with stunning results. Why not give it a go if money is a concern? There is so little to lose and so much to gain. In fact, you can make a whole roomful of your own cables for a fraction of the cost of a single over-priced cable -- including neodymium magnets that run about 50 cents apiece. Ozzy and I have worked on this with great success after owning multi-thousand dollar cables. And I'm quite sure there are others out there doing the same thing who prefer to sit on the sidelines, understandably.
Now, it's true that some components may also be somewhat over-priced. But you usually get pretty good value if you choose your components carefully. You will need to change components a lot less often than cables if you purchase wisely.
It is also true that some tweaks and accessories may carry outlandish prices -- such as Synergistic Research HFTs that go for $60 a pop. But in this case, you can also make your own. I got some of the ideas from Ozzy with HFTs and mine work great. I also make proprietary DIY tweaks that are stunning. So, with some imagination and not too many dollars you can really stretch the audio budget.
This is a concern for me because I live overseas and buy and try can be very expensive. OK, I have a pretty liberal audio budget. But why the heck should I just thrown money at the audio thing when I can do better by using my imagination -- and have a bit of fun, as well. There is nothing more satisfying than making your own speaker wires or power cords that allow you to sell off multi-thousand dollar cables that were performing really, really well. |
Lak,
Look up Ozzy's posts and you'll find how he does his speaker wires. I did mine with no dialectric. With speaker wires I do the magnets with my own DIY tweaks attached to Bybee GG speaker bullets. |
Mapman,
You stated "... DD is a shill for this product plain and simple." It certainly looks that way, IMO. The gushing descriptions -- followed by more gushing descriptions. The fawning over Rick Schultz -- followed by more fawning. |
Calvinj,
You stated "If you like to build your own I applaud you. But, it's not going to be this good." You are welcome to drop over the next time you visit Asia so you can judge for yourself. |
Tbg,
I agree with you about solder. Which is why I use none in my speaker wires. I don't think DD is as rapid as he is rabid. |
Ddraudt and Calvinj,
With all due respect -- once again, it looks like you have completely missed my point. My point is not about the sonic merits of High Fidelity cables. I have been using magnets in my DIY cables for years and am well aware of their merits. I also use magnets strategically through my system to great effect.
My point is about price/performance ratio. I will refer you back to my earlier comments about outrageous prices -- including my comment about 4 power cords that cost $50,000. |
Calloway,
My invitation is made in all sincerity. With all due respect, we live where we live. Changing locations is not an audiophile option.
I do not have spares cables lying around. Just go to Ozzy's instructions on how to make the silver speaker wires. Mine are without dialectric. The cost will be under $200. By the way, I do a lot more than is indicated in Ozzy's instructions. I have accessories and "tweaks" optimizing their performance including magnets and other elements and features. Unlike High Fidelity cables they are not incorporated in the cables themselves but are externally located.
So, even if you make the cables themselves you will not know how they sound in my system. You are listening to a system, not just a cable that has been accessorized. The same goes for all cables, of course. You are listening to the effect of one piece of gear on the sound of the system. My system sounds stunning. |
DD,
With all due respect, it may have eluded you but everyone has the right to their opinions. So, it may surprise you to learn that "meaningful posts" may contain observations that you do not agree with. Cheer leading is not the only acceptable form of contribution to Forum threads, IMO. And, as I mentioned earlier, I do not believe that Members contributing to this thread really need parental guidance. |
I have noticed that when I express opinions similar to Mapman's here my posts sometimes do not make it to the thread -- but Mapman's posts are allowed. I wonder why? |
Agisthos,
This is true if you have too many magnets in the system. It all depends on how many magnets you use and where you place them -- and other mods that I include, as well. Surrounding connectors with magnets can indeed cause SQ to deteriorate. I know this from my own experience -- especially if you use too many N52 neodymium magnets. But with the right number of magnets and the right placement the sonic results can be very rewarding, and the sound will not deteriorate. |
As far I can determine DD has yet to deny that he sells or has sold HF cables. I look forward to hearing from him on this matter. |
There are 3 matters on the table.
1. Sound quality. This is not a competition between my cables and HF cables. Magnetic cables perform very well when the configuration is right. You can make your own magnetic cables that may surprise you.
2. Price. The price of some cables is in the stratosphere. If you can afford the price then go for them. But there may be attractive alternatives -- for a small fraction of the cost of high-priced cables.
3. Marketing. IMO, there are suspect things going on in this thread that I and others have observed. I believe I have made my point very clearly. |
Calvinj,
With all due respect, I believe I have as much right to determine what matters to me as you have to determine what matters to you. If you read my posts closely you will see that my concerns are about price/performance and using this thread without full disclosure to promote personal agendas.
I am not disputing the quality of HF cables, although there are some who say the effusiveness and cheer-leading on the thread exaggerate the actual results with HF cables -- and that excessive gushing may belie other things happening beneath the surface. IMO, if read between the lines, this thread may be about more than just the quality of HF cables.
I would like to see Rick Schultz declare categorically on this thread that he has not given any financial or product incentive to anyone posting here -- the same as my request to DD to make a full disclosure. That should be easy enough to do. |
Ddraudt,
With all due respect, for your information, full disclosure means coming clean with a clear and direct statement of your own position -- instead of producing a smokescreen of self-serving statements directed at others along with a blow-by-blow description of your latest and inevitably fabulous listening session with friends -- that I am sure everyone was waiting to receive with bated breath.
You have already admitted selling cables. Why not make the details clear for everyone on this thread instead of appending it in a back-handed coda to a long post? It should be pretty easy for you to make a clear and up-front statement -- should it not? -- without a camouflage of diversions and obligatory LOLs. The more evasive the responses the more one is encouraged to speculate and draw conclusions -- obviously. |
Since posts that misstate and misrepresent what I say are being allowed and my replies are being disallowed I will no longer post to this thread. |
Agisthos,
What people call tweaks can make as big a difference to SQ as a component or a cable. This is what my experience tells me. I also believe that "almost all high end cables are just another flavour of sound ..."
There is also "a lot more going on" with my DIY cables than magnets. I am not denying that High Fidelity cables may be exceptional. What I am saying is that you can make great cables yourself without having to mortgage the house. I mean, most people have at least 4 power cords in their system. How many can afford to spend $50,000 on 4 power cords?
Thanks for the tip. I will look around Singapore for these cables. |
Mrmb,
I agree that there seems to be an attempt to constrain comments on this thread -- coming from members with questionable "credentials". In the past, I have been enthusiastic about cables from Synergistic Research, Grover Huffman and HiDiamond. My opinions changed when my experience broadened.
Everything depends on system synergy. There is no Magic Audio Bullet no matter what anyone says with all the enthusiasm they can muster. I now use David Elrod cables, Shunyata cables and my own DIY cables to create the necessary synergy in my system that has taken over 8 years to develop. System synergy depends on many factors: the right components, the right cables and the right room treatments. System synergy does not simply depend on the right cables.
Disclosure:
I was involved in an unfortunate transaction with Rik Schultz that came down to a matter of integrity. Nevertheless, he may indeed make very good cables. I have not yet tried them.
Disclosure:
I was partnered with another cable maker at the time of the above-mentioned transaction in a project that involved developing magnetic cables. I have been making my own magnetic cables for years. They are very nice cables. Are they the Holy Grail? No, they are not. |
Calvinj
You stated, "I will make it simple for you. If you didn't like the sound you wouldn't buy them." I will make it simple for you. If you liked the sound you would't have sold them.
You stated, "Try the high fidelity stuff for yourself. Don't let anyone tell you what it's worth." If you can afford high priced cables without batting an eyelash then you can afford to make this statement. But if you are among those who demand value for their hard-earned audio dollars then "worth" is critical.
Jmcgrogan2,
In spite of Rick Schultz's unethical actions this has nothing whatsoever to do about a grudge. That's all in the past. My observations are not so easily dismissed. I have been critical of many cable makers for years on the Forum -- Synergistic Research, Grover Huffman, Gabriel Gold, HiDiamond among them. |
Tbg,
You may be right. But I believe there is a mystique around cables and cable makers that needs to be dispelled. Ozzy put it very well when he said there is just so much BS in the cable business. If you believe everything you read on the Forum and in reviews, there are more geniuses in the high-end audio business than there are in Mensa. Sorry, I don't buy it. That mentality simply fills a need for myth-making and cultism.
What I am talking about is the price/performance ratio. I have known for years that neodymium magnets can elevate the performance of cables. But I also know from my own experience that any audiophile can make his own stunning cables for a pittance -- meaning no more than $200 or $300 -- including the magical neodymium magnets that usually run no more than 50 cents apiece. This makes the astronomical prices demanded for "high end" cables with lesser SQ, and in many cases inferior SQ, nothing short of laughable.
Of course, those with enough money to throw at the matter do not care a whit about price/performance. They want to come home at night, put their feet up, and enjoy the music. For them performance is all that matters -- not price or value. They have no interest in making their own cables. They simply let someone else address the problem and pay them for their work. On the other hand, there are others who try to get the best value for their hard-earned dollars but are drawn into the high-end hoopla and spend way more than they need to spend for stunning sound. They have no idea they can make their own high-performance cables for a song.
By the way, my comments are equally directed at a long list of cable makers including Synergistic Research, Cardas, Gabriel Gold, High Fidelity, ASI Liveline, Tara and Nordost, among many others. |
Swampwalker,
You stated "$100K (or more) for a full loom of cables? Get real...this is one of the key reasons why people think audiophiles are crazy!"
This is precisely my point. Unless you are a multi-millionaire and could not give a hoot about the price, if audiophiles plunk down the astronomical prices being demanded for these cables, and the cables of other makers, people have very good reason to suspect they are crazy. IMO.
Tbg,
You stated "The DIYer cannot match any of them." How do you know that? Have you tried? And even if you have tried and failed, there is more than one DIY path. Ozzy has already stated his speaker wires outperform all the multi-thousand dollar speaker wires he has ever had in his system. Same for me. With all due respect, you may speak accurately for yourself as a DIYer but you cannot speak for everyone.
You also stated "... we can lower our goals ..." But this is precisely the point I am making here and that Ozzy has made, as well. The object is to raising your goals by making cables that outperform multi-thousand dollar cables. This does not lower the bar because of the simple fact this costs very little to do. It may encourage disbelief but that does not mean it has not been done. |
Jmcgrogan2,
You stated, "The problem with this thread is there is no tolerance for anything except gushing about the products." And I agree. It's obvious, especially from DD's posts. He sounds like he wants to set the agenda -- with parental guidance required regarding posts he does not agree with. Very odd for someone who has suddenly appeared as a Forum participant out of the blue. IMO.
By the way, I did not state or imply that my cables were better than anything on the market. Sorry if I left that impression. I imply that, in my system, they are better than anything I have ever heard, including highly touted and multi-thousand dollar cables, and that my cables will likely rival other high end performers.
I have also made the point that you are not listening to a cable when you power up any system. You are listening to the synergy of the system. Any changes that happen with the introduction or removal of one element or cable are duly noted. It is the system synergy that matters -- how the elements complement or detract from SQ.
There are many things I do with my cables to optimize their performance, including using magnets. These elements are not included in the cable construction but are externally implemented, unlike HF cables that incorporate various elements into the cable design itself. |
Ddraudt,
It appears you are the self-anointed shadow moderator of this thread. Congratulations. By the way, was this by acclamation?
You stated, "Perhaps there is a thread out there that specializes in whining and complaining about things no one wants to hear." IMO, if you substitute the word "I" for the words "no one" you will be making an accurate statement. With all due respect, you may speak for yourself but not for all Members. After all, it appears that at least Jmcgrogan2 is not allergic to my comments. If you are, then please feel free to ignore them.
By the way, I am not offended in the least if you do not read what I have to say. But you apparently do read what I have to say since you characterize my comments as whining and complaining. How would you know if you had ignored my posts? So, your denial is disingenuous.
And besides, even if I were whining and complaining there is no law that says this form of communication is, ipso facto, disallowed on the Forum, as far as I am aware. In any case, if you characterize my comments as whining and complaining -- when I point out the obvious, that HF cables carry an outrageous price tag -- then so be it. However, this does not detract from the truth of my statement.
By the way, if Jmcgrogan2's comments about your selling HF cables is true then I believe it would be best for you to make a full disclosure. Please let us know one way or the other.
Tbg,
Since my cables have bested Elrod cables in my system then, by your line of reasoning, Elrod cables do not best Radio Shack cables. In any case, since you have not heard my cables in my system the point is moot. You are not in a position to judge by direct experience but only by speculating. You certainly have a right to speculate. |
