These kind of suggestions have been made to Jeffkad at another forum. I think he is looking for something that's plug and play. |
Irv, thanls for the recommendation. I think thats a good investment and I will try it. I have listened with grills on and off. The adjustments simply increase/decrease tweeter and decrease bass for close to wall placement. My issue is low bass and midrange among other issues I mentioned in my previous post.
Sfstereo, with all due respect, I was simply offering my perspective here, and all suggestions and comments are welcome, even if similar suggestions were made elsewhere. Having said that, you are not wrong, I would prefer something more plug and play and not have to mess around so much with placement, room, etc. However, there may be no such animal if I want to play on this level. I appreciate Irv's suggestion, as the Dayton OmniMic is something I can buy to see if indeed these is a suckout issue, and then decide if/how I want to deal with it. For what it's worth, I have moved them around and improved the bass response significantly, but still have recessed vocals on some CDs (just listened again to Clapton Unplugged Layla cut and his voice was quite recessed), as well as the "deconstruct" issue I raised above. |
Jeff, the Salon 2 is very sensitive to room placement for a lot of parameters, especially bass response. Much more so than my previous Legacy Focus speakers were, by a long shot. I've mentioned in other threads that when my Salon 2s are set up for best imaging and response in the 200Hz and up range my bass response is terrible. I finally gave up and got a subwoofer I could move around to my heart's content, and leave the Salon 2s in positions optimized for everything else. I use a 80Hz-6db/octave high filter for the Salon 2 woofers, which of course requires four amplifier channels. (The mids/high run direct from the pre-amp.) In my room there was really no other choice.
I have a lot of fun with the OmniMic real-time analyzer screen too. It shows you where the energy in a recording really is. I like 1/12th octave smoothing mode.
You might be surprised at the effect the tweeter control has on voices. Try turning it down to -.5 with the grilles off and see what happens.
Of course, it just might be that you will like the 802D better. I know someone that definitely prefers them to my Salon 2s. It's not a crime. :) |
Thanks Irv. Interesting how it played out for you. I got the Salon2 as a full range answer (and sold my JL F112 assuming it would be, ugh). If it's not, I'm happy to go the sub route, but probably don't need the Salon 2 as IMO it becomes overkill at that point (financial overkill as well,lol).
I did pick up the Velodyne Optimum 12 and played Adele's Rolling in the Deep, both with and without sub, and since the recording is goosed in the bass and boosted/close mic'ed on vocal, it sounded great without the sub and not much better with. It was after that that I decided to try the Clapton Unplugged recording and was once again disappointed with the recessed vocal. It's like a roller coaster, good song, bad song. I have no problem admitting I may like the "lesser" 802Di or even drop down to an 803Di and go back to a high-end sub or pair of subs.
I do look forward to playing with the OmniMic just to see what's going on.
Which Legacy Focus did you have: 20/20, HD, SE? I was really interested in both the Focus SE and the Whisper XD but nowhere to hear them. How did you like to Focus and how did it compare to others (even the salon)? |
Jeff, of course you realize that the signature of a great speaker is that it makes every recording sound different. That's neutrality for you. ;-) "Good song, bad song..."
I don't consider the 802D "lesser", I consider it different. To my ears the 802Ds aren't as neutral. They're a bit too technicolor for me. But no one appointed me or anyone else the arbiter of goodness, and it just might be you like the 802Ds better.
I had the original Legacy Focus, purchased in 1996. Three 12" woofers, and that bi-pole bass made them easier to place in a room for smooth bass response than most box speakers. I was happy with them for years. They didn't image especially well, or at least I never got them to, but until I heard the Salon 2 nothing got me to change. The Dunlavy V almost did, but the treble wasn't as detailed at the Legacys. I've never heard the Whisper. |
I am also considering upgrading to Salon 2s. I owned the B&W 802Ns several years back...they made me buy back the same speakers I sold, Audio Physic Virgo IIs. I use a pair of Rel Storm IIIs w/ the Virgos and would like to save some space and go with a full range speaker. All the same speakers come up...Wilson Sasha,Sophia,B&W 800d-802d, Thiel 3.7 and Revel Salon 2. I have to deal with a tough WAF...so that is my real bump in the upgrade road. I have the same problem as all...how do we audition these fine speakers in our room with our equipment! My heart felt deduction is the Revel Salon 2 for it's strong reviews and Living Room looks. Second place goes to the Thiel 3.7 |
gandme, if you are in NYC/LI area, feel free to listen to my Salon 2's (and buy them if you'd like :) |
OK I'm late in - I have had both in my home for awhile and I've tested them with my equipment in an A/B format (less than ideal room though). IMO the Revel's win the contest. Only downside for me is that I think I need to improve my amplification for the Revels ("improve" really means "more power" - OK not just any power). The Revels really like lots of good power. I've had several folks whose ears I respect, do the same comparison and they all chose the Revels over the 802d's (without my prompting).
I'll be selling the 802ds shortly, hate to let them go. I still like 'em, but I need the money. I'm planning on building a "listening/man shed" and I'd like to see how they both do with more perfect acoustics, but in my room (with various speaker placements)and with identical equipment the Revels won the contest.
I wish I could test them both some more and in the acoustic shed, but my WAF is really low at this point and the testing was tough to manage (I had to do it when the wife and 4 kiddos were gone!).
Interested in any other comments you guys/gals have. |
What ever you do DO NOT LISTEN to VIVD speakers or you won't be considering either of those. |
Same price point? I have not heard them (of course this is a thread on B&W 802d's vs Revel Ultima Salon 2's).
I doubt if I'd be able to get over the cabinet - I know my wife couldn't. She said that the 802's looked "alien." |
|
Nab, are you going to sell the 802 diamonds? |
Try to hear what Vandersteen and Magnepan offer before you write a check....If you are in New Jersey, Audioconnection has them both. |
I'm planning on selling the 802 diamonds. I haven't sold anything yet. I tend to buy on Audiogon etc. and then hold 'em because I'm too lazy to pack stuff up and advertise. I'm sort of like a pawn shop that buys and never sells. The foam packing on the base of one of the B& W speakers was cracked and I need to get a replacement before shipping. What a pain.
Around here I have to basically buy speakers to demo them. I live in central Georgia and no place around here will carry high end (even Atlanta doesn't have much as far as I can tell). |
Jeff you are accurate on your description of the B&W's, but part of your response to the Revels may be a function of amplification and/or the room. In my room (and it's a big one with high cathedral ceilings) the Revels seemed to me to have a more accurate low end (less distortion and forward presentation) than the B&Ws. They have a real "clarity" overall. I do like the warmth of the B&Ws though. No doubt. I wish I had a better descriptive vocabulary in the context of describing sound. Sometimes I feel like a person who like fine wine but who cannot express it. This Chardonnay has the aromas of toasted oak and hints of vanilla. Uh what? It tastes really good. Both of these speakers sound really good and it may be with a different room configuration the B&Ws might beat the Revels. When I get my man-shed (listening shed) built Ill know more (but my ears might be shot). I'll sell the B&W's before that project is completed. |
"I wish I had a better descriptive vocabulary in the context of describing sound. Sometimes I feel like a person who like fine wine but who cannot express it. This Chardonnay has the aromas of toasted oak and hints of vanilla. Uh what? It tastes really good."
Here ya go - study up on this -
http://www.stereophile.com/j_gordon_holt/50/index9.html
and pretty soon you'll be slingin' it with the best of 'em! |
Hey Jeff, if you interested in the 802d's email me. And we can talk "offline" Email is nbeadles@charter.net. Couldn't figure out a way to contact you directly in Audiogon.
P59teitel: thanks for the link - I will read up on it. I still won't have confidence in my opinions even though it is a good starting point. The Revels do have less coloration (in my opinion) and a wide sound stage. The highs are clear and cohesive without being too forward. I would say they were ruthlessly accurate. They are like a woman with very little makeup. If the original recording is good it will sound good,if not then not. The speakers "reveal" that fact; they do not "mask" the sound. |
Any opinions on 800 N vs. Salon2? |
The thing about the 802d's is they polarize. I heard them when a guy I know who has measuring equipment had them and asked me down for a listen. I walked in and immediately thought - yuck - dead grungy midrange and out of balance - boomy and bass heavy. Then he showed me the measurements - a dirty great big about 10db hump in the bass. And it wasn't just room acoustics or something like that - sterophile measured them and it was exactly the same.
Yet there are people like you that go ga ga over them so one can't really say anything in general except they polarise.
If you are spending that sort of money you owe it to yourself to hear other speakers. I do not know the Revel but the speaker I would listen to is the Rockport Mira 2 - easily in a different league IMHO - but like I said the 802D's polarize and I am one of those that simply don't get that speaker.
Thanks
Bill |
Bhobba. Get your facts straight. The upper bass hump is approx. 6db, not 10db. The 4db difference you describe is very large in measurement terms. If your friend measured a 10db hump then the room and/or placement is the problem. I'm not saying the B&W 802D is a purists speaker. It even has a "house" sound but then that can just about be said of any speaker line. My views of the measurements come directly from the Stereophile mag dated Dec. 2005 of which I have in front of me right now. You wonder why so many people go ga ga over them. well maybe they are fine speakers in other people's eye or ears for that matter. Stereophile gave the speakers a Class A rating. The OP wasn't/isn't interested in your preference of speakers. He wanted to find out what the comparison between the 802D and Revel Salon 2 would be. Something you did not address. |
The differences between the two speakers will have to he through your ears only. If you can listen to both pairs in the same room with the same appropriate amplification. Both sound great. as a speaker should at that price point.
The constant debate over B&W speakers is nuts. the facts of B&W speakers are this...
1 B&W make their own drivers (alot of the other companies use drivers they buy from other companies)
2 The internal bracing of the cabinets is copied now by alot of the other companies. this is the b&w matrix bracing.
3 b&w's curved back of their speakers is copied by other speaker companies.
4 B&w is known for their accuracy of music reproduction, some may have heard a poor recording on the speakers and think it is the speakers fault. ever seen an older tv show say MASH, on a 1080P tv? it looks like ass, but it is not the tv's fault.
5 b&w is a larger company... everyone would have to agree that if they were a smaller company, their speakers would cost considerably more. So, if anything that should be a positive not a negative.
6 B&W have one of the highest resale prices. that should tell you a lot about the company and the quality of their products.
I believe everyone can agree on these statements, or read them in the numorus reviews. so like them or not, it is what it is. |
Mr M here is the frequency responce:
http://www.stereophile.com/content/bw-802d-loudspeaker-measurements
People can make up their own mind about the amount of bass hump there is - I describe it as about 10 db from where it dips below 0 db but I won't get into an argument about it. Regardless of how you look at it such a hump is not the mark of a genuinely neutral speaker. All I am doing is pointing out some people don't like them - of which I am one. I could say have you ever thought the reason for that is they are crap - but I won't because I understand from listening to gear over many years with others how much personal preferences comes into it and there is no right or wrong here. All I am pointing out is if you are spending that sort of money you owe it to yourself to listen to other gear in that price range - that's it that's all. Oh and there were quite a few people in this thread that did not address a direct comparison. This often happens when someone posts about two specific products - some posts just address one or speak in general terms.
Thanks
Bill |
Baranowski wrote 'The constant debate over B&W speakers is nuts'
Mate there is no debate really - they simply polarize a bit - that's all. Some love em - some find them ho hum for all sorts of reasons. I had a guy over while visiting a friend in Canberra who has the same speakers I have and who had just been at a B&W dealer that was gushing how great they were - he personally couldn't stand them for reasons I will not repeat. He liked my speakers a lot better. But another guy I know wrote me saying he was very concerned about all the negative comments about B&W but loved them - it was giving him pause about pulling the trigger. I had to explain to both there is no right or wrong here - there is a wide variety of tastes in Hi Fi - viva la difference I say.
Hear them and make up you own mind and check out other speakers as well so you have a baseline. Its that simple - nothing hard about it at all. No need for arguments, getting upset or anything.
All the OP needs to know is the B&W's polarize in opinion so be sure they are what you want before getting them.
Thanks
Bill |
All of the above is true, and this is why B&W is a premier speaker company. However, I feel the Revels are the better speaker, at a higher price though. For $15000 (retail) you get quite a lot of speaker for the money with the B&Ws. The same can be said for the Revels. So, to me it just depends on what you're looking for in a speaker. The Revels are more neutral and accurate, imo. But, the B&Ws have better bass, imo. It's kind of a toss up, really! lol. |
Reviving an old thread, amazingly, all these ears later the ultima2 line is still current; it's spanned the end of the B&W "D1" (simply known as D) , the 2011-2016 B&W "D2" (simply known as Diamond), and now the 2016-present "D3".
So the General consensus is that both the 802D2 and Salon2 are fabulous, however most people seem to prefer the revel salon2. Fast forward to summer 2017 now, the salon2 is still current, how do folks feel about salon2 versus the current 802D3?
|
@tubesrule Great question! I recently had the opportunity to hear both the Salon2 and 802D3 back to back - powered by Levinson 536 amp + 519 player.
The Salons sounded invisible, effortless, and natural to me. The 802d3 sounded boomy at the bottom and a bit shrill at the top. The Revel+Levinson synergy is tough to beat. And no, I don't work for Harman :)
My 2¢ - no refunds! |
