Hegel H390 DAC

Yup. Don’t bother with a power conditioner. 
 

@audphile1

It’s odd that the Simaudio transport with your Aqua DAC didn’t have the sibilance as pronounced as your Jays transport.

Yes. This initially led me to assume the Jay’s was the problem but, in fact, when running it directly into the Hegel, there is less sibilance and a markedly more relaxed presentation, overall, than when the Aqua is in the signal chain.

I can live with this set-up, no problem. I’m wondering if perhaps a tube dac might be a better match. Linear Tube Audio is coming out with one of their own design early in the year. I prefer to buy products I can demo at home and return if necessary and LTA offers a 14 day return policy. The fact that it has only two tubes is a big plus in my opinion. I swore I’d never use tube gear again (audio or guitar) due to the mantainence factor but I could change my mind.

As for power, I live in a rural area of large parcels (we have one of the smaller ones at 25 acres). Each parcel has its own transformer. Pretty far from the scenario you describe! And, Hegel does not favor use of power conditioners for their integrateds.

@stuartk that’s cool. Just enjoy the music and take your time in solving this puzzle. When you borrow a dac and a transport you will most likely figure out where the root cause is. It’s odd that the Simaudio transport with your Aqua DAC didn’t have the sibilance as pronounced as your Jays transport.

As to power conditioning…looking at the power supplies in the Aqua and Jays… unless you live in an apartment building in the city something like that lower end puritan is a waste of space and money. It may actually introduce other nuisance like power cord upgrades for it, restricted dynamics, etc. 
If you want to upgrade your power, run a dedicated line for your system. Cheaper and better.

@audphile1

I had the PSM-156 and sold it. You can definitely try the Puritan. I highly doubt it’s your problem though. If you’re determined to make it work I would think that both the transport and the dac have to be looked at as a pairing or individually, given the fact that the Simaudio transport didn’t exhibit this sonic trait you’re trying to remediate.

I just thought the Puritan could be a useful experiment to determine whether a power issue might be playing a role in the equation but if you believe it makes more sense to swap out the transport and DAC first, I’ll try to borrow some gear and do that. I feel like I’m in over my head, here. In the meantime, I've gone back to running the Jay's into the Hegel's DAC, because it's both less sibilant and more relaxing than either of the other scenarios I've tried.  

@stuartk I had the PSM-156 and sold it. You can definitely try the Puritan. I highly doubt it’s your problem though. If you’re determined to make it work I would think that both the transport and the dac have to be looked at as a pairing or individually, given the fact that the Simaudio transport didn’t exhibit this sonic trait you’re trying to remediate. 

As I don’t know how long it might take to borrow something from the audio club, my plan is to order a Puritan PS 106-DC (the best Puritan unit I can afford, currently) and return it if it proves ineffective.

@audphile1 ​​@steakster

Thanks for your perspectives on cable organization.

@steakster

I don’t believe I’ve ever encountered "rat’s nest" and "cake" in the same sentence before! ;o)

As some one who loves to write, I admire your word choices.

Yesterday I reached out to a friend who heads up the local audio club. Hopefully I  can borrow some gear and hone in on the cause of the problems.

I never heard any difference in my system that was influenced by how close to each other the cables are or their geometric orientation in relation to each other. Never have I heard even a slightest difference in sound between a speaker cable that was coiled or stretched out.
I did one time mess up the sound pretty badly when I placed my active power conditioner directly behind the amplifier. That was interesting. 

@steakster 

From your virtual system comments:

Cables: too close together - and/or - in parallel - and/or - even crossing at 90 degrees.  e.g: This includes: power & signal, shielded & non-shielded, single-ended & balanced.

Definitely the case with my system --- I don't have much room behind components. 

Will see what I can do, though. 

@steakster 

Thanks for the useful clarification and link

@steakster 

As it so happens, I read much of that thread but was quite confused by the contradictory opinions. 

I have my gear mounted in a heavy built-in bookshelf unit that is deep enough for a relatively large component such as the H390, but does not have much room behind it to locate a power conditioning unit. I could ask if anyone in the audio club has something I could borrow. 

@steakster 

Yes; everything you suggest could prove worthwhile. 

Many years ago, Dave brought over a PS Audio power regenerator and we heard no difference with the system plugged into it but that system was much less resolving than my current gear. We live in a rural area of large parcels, with a separate transformer assigned to each property. There is a sub-station about a mile away and something could've changed over the years at that end. I'll admit to knowing nothing about power. 

Thanks for your kind encouragement. 

@yage

This does indeed seem like an incompatibility and yet I have no other choice; utilizing the Hegel’s DAC Loop function requires connecting the DAC’s xlr analog output to the Hegel’s xlr analog input. I’ve been instructed it will not work any other way. I’m not wedded to the DAC loop --just explaining why I did what I did.

@bigtwin

My apologies. I’ve clearly confused you with someone else. At 67, my memory is not getting better! ;o)

@audphile1

Yes, I’ve reached the same conclusion -- it’s most likely a synergy issue -- but perhaps not exactly how you describe it.

Consider that, when I had Simaudio transport - > Aqua -> Hegel, there was no sibilance or fatigue.

It wasn’t until I replaced the Simaudio with the Jay’s that problems started.

I could try another DAC or another transport and see what happens.

Thanks for hanging with me through all of this -- it’s much appreciated!

@steakster

In Sacramento area. I know there's a fairly active forum member who lives in Folsom, but unfortunately,I don’t remember who it is. There is a local audio club -- I just haven’t been active in it but am good friends with one of the members who used to be a dealer. Good idea!

@stuartk  I think you have me mixed up with some other contributor.  Those aren't my words.  I had to google  "sibilant" to get the meaning. 😆  I have never experienced the effect in my system so can't speak to it.  Luckily the only thing that gives me fatigue is getting up too early in the morning.  Cheers.

@stuartk so you’ve pretty much narrowed it down to DAC. I wouldn’t worry about silver in digital cable. It won’t impact the sound the same way the silver in analog cables would.
My conclusion is your dac/amp/speakers combination is not very synergistic.
The DAC is emphasizing the sibilance and the amp is exacerbating it.

At this point no amount of vibration control, tweaks or cables will fix this issue. At best it would provide a temporary bandaid. Probably time to try a new DAC or a new amp. Room dampening might help as well if you can add some.

@audphile1

1) Jay’s: It has many hours on it, as I bought it a year ago.

@bigtwin has described it as "somewhat forward" compared to other transports he’s heard. I actually did contact Alvin at one point re: brightness/sibilance and he recommended some inexpensive (Mogami, perhaps?) IC’s. I didn’t find they helped and the overall SQ was severely compromised by those cables.

2) Sibilance:

a) With Jay’s -> Aqua -> Hegel, sibilance was mostly confined to female vocals -- soprano range being noticeably worse than alto range.

b) With Jay’s -> Hegel, sibilance was lessened. At first, I thought it was gone, but further listening has revealed it remains to some degree. Fatigue, on the other hand, was much less evident.

c) With DAC loop, sibilance became more exaggerated, with longer "trails" and not only S sounds affected. Furthermore, male vocals were also affected. This is the worst it’s ever been. In other words, whenever Aqua is in signal chain, sibilance is worse.

FYI, I searched Forum threads for "sibilance + DACs" and came across numerous references to guys modding their DACs to get rid of sibilance.

3)

RE: DIgital cables: I just looked at the description on A. Art site and it says: "Audio Art’s new Statement Digital employs a Single Crystal (OCC) silver conductor".

This might be another issue. 

@stuartk

I ran across this little tidbit using Google (link)

This a response from Christian Bakken at Hegel when I asked him the same question about XLR and H390.

“Hi Rob,

Please note that there is absolutely no point in using XLR connectors unless the signal path is balanced, all our XLR outputs and inputs are balanced. "Fully balanced" is a pleonasm, a circuit is either balanced or not.

Best regards

Hegel Music System AS – Oslo, Norway

Christian “

The Aqua La Voce S2 specs note ’asymmetric’ XLR output. That seems to imply that it is not a balanced output but a voltage doubled single ended output using an XLR connection. So probably not an ideal situation for the amp’s balanced inputs from Hegel’s point of view.

Here's an article explaining the difference between balanced and unbalanced connections - link.

If the transport is the root cause of the sibilance, you have to try a few things. 
1. get at least 200hrs of play time on the Jays. Not just on time but playing and passing the signal thru

2. try different digital cables. Doesn’t have to be expensive but must be either 75ohm coax or 110ohm AES. Using regular balanced or rca cable can cause sonic degradation. The impedance of the cable is critical. 
3. Assuming the transport is broken in with at least 200hrs of play and you’re using proper  digital cables, and you tried stock and upgraded power cords, and your old dvd player isn’t exhibiting the same issue, you need to contact Jays Audio and discuss this situation. 
 

If the sibilance is just as nasty with the DVD player as transport into the Aqua but there’s no sibilance with hegel inbuilt dac, your dac is the issue. 
 

Let us know. 

Rule out the transport next. Connect your old dvd player to dac via coax or toslink. If sibilance persists, it’s the dac. Also, could be a recording. Is it every disc you play that you notice this? Or just certain disc(s). What are the songs? 

@audphile1 

I found a pair of Cullen xlr's I'd forgotten I had. Using  them in the dac loop, sibilance was just as pronounced as with the new A. Art cables, which suggests to me it's not a cable issue.

DVD spinning a CD on repeat into Aqua via coax or toslink. Leave that on 24/7.

@audphile1

Yes; I have an old DVD player.

I'm sorry but I don't follow your meaning. 

Could you please describe the signal chain you're suggesting, incorporating the dvd player ? 

Do you have an old dvd player you can connect to aqua and run 24/7 or just get WiiM streamer on Amazon and run into aqua via toslink. Send that garbage back when you’re done. Lol

@audphile1 

Thanks for researching that.  That's quite a bit more burn-in. the Jay's remote has a repeat function. Unfortunately, last week I had to send mine to Tek Audio in Texas for repairs. While the Hegel remote will work for some functions on Jay's, repeat is not one of them. So this means I can only listen while I'm awake. Will do what I can. I appreciate your ongoing advice !

I just looked on the audio art site and it is furutech rhodium connectors. That’s going to be additional 200-225hrs. Forget 72hrs cooking. These plugs require around 300hrs. Run the system non stop. 

Thanks!

I wouldn’t rush to swap for pass. Hegel is good. Different but good.
Back to your findings…

UNBAL 2 RCA Output 2.4 V RMS
BALANCED (asymmetrical output) 2 XLR Output : 4.8V RMS

what you’re hearing is due to higher output via XLR outs of your dac and that gives your lower noise and the more weight you’re hearing in the presentation is your dac driving the amp better. I always use XLR where possible.
Rhodium plugs take more than 72 hours to burn in. Are they made by Furutech? I would connect some source to the dac that you can spin 24/7 for at least one week while your hegel amp is on but on mute at times you are not listening. don’t turn anything off let it run.
Power cords on dac and amp will be critical.

@audphile1

I paid for 72 hour burn-in on the new cables -- I’ve been buying Rob’s cables for over 15 years and have always paid for burn in and have never found them to change much.

Another variable is the fact that the analogue out from DAC to Hegel is now via balanced XLR connection. The wire is the same as the RCA s I use but the termination is different -- rhodium. There is more weight/lower mids now, with this cable, which I actually like. This was something I always felt was missing before and which I attempted to bolster with the Schiit Lokius.

To be honest, I’m not clear re: the distinction between using balanced connections and using balanced connections between components with balanced topologies.

The Aqua site describes the La Voce S2 DAC’s XLR output as "asymmetrical".

Not sure about the Hegel -- one reviewer describes it as "true balanced" but I didn’t see this in the description on Hegel’s website.

If you were asking whether components are broken in, yes -- definitely

Just looked at your virtual system. Impressive! Another forum member suggested I swap out the Hegel for Pass.  

Is everything broken in?

@audphile1

Darn -- forgot about the power cords. Thanks for the reminder!

I never had sibilance until I acquired the Jay's and the Hegel. 

DH Labs should be good. See if you can borrow some power cords as well - rule out the power related issues 

Some recordings will have sibilance. However  how harsh and unnatural that sibilance is reproduced depends on your components, speakers and cables as well as the room acoustics. 

@stuartk yes, luckily there are some fine examples. Personally, I think audio companies should post pictures of their gear in "real" living rooms to appeal to a wider audience. 

@steakster ​​

Excellent detective work. I hope you find the culprit.

Your home is stunning.

I hope so, too, and thanks.

@grislybutter

both the rooms and the furniture are just gorgeous. A rare delight amongst all the sterile, "dedicated" listening "labs" :)

Thanks. If I had the option of a dedicated room, I would definitely take advantage of it but I don’t, so I have to work with what I have.

BTW, I was looking through the virtual systems a few days ago and found another guy who, like me, favors the Craftsman style and has used it very tastefully in his listening room. While they comprise a minority, there are those, if you look, who pay as much attention to the room’s esthetics as the sound.

Your home is stunning

both the rooms and the furniture are just gorgeous. A rare delight amongst all the sterile, "dedicated" listening "labs" :)

@audphile1

A fellow forum member has volunteered to lend me some DH Labs.

I’m not concerned about the digital cables. It’s the XLR ICs that I want to swap out.

I can return the newly acquired Audio Art XLRs if necessary.

I’ve researched the topic of dealing with sibilance and encountered quite a  variation of opinion:

1) It’s in the recordings.

2) it’s an AC issue

3) it’s a vibration issue

4) it can be dealt with via speaker positioning (I haven’t found this to be true, so far)

5) it has to do with the DAC.

Substituting my old Jolida CDP for the Jay’s (both as a transport and a CDP) failed to improve the sibilance issue, so it would seem the Jay’s is not to blame. I find sibilance extremely annoying. I don’t really want to give up listening to certain female vocalists but I may have to, until I can afford to put serious $ into the system.

@stuartk interesting. What cables are you thinking of trying?

Update:

Cables needed for dac loop arrived today.

Tonality with Aqua back in system in dac loop mode is no longer lean.

The good news : noise is still absent. The bad news: sibilance has returned.

I will try different xlrs to see whether the current ones or the Aqua might be the source of the sibilance.

T+A DAC 200 would be my choice at the $7k level.
Lampizator Baltic 4 also sonically punches above it’s price point also but with a warmer tube presentation- can tube roll to adjust sound.

@audphile1

Thanks for confirming my strategy makes sense and for pointing out the possibility that the dac’s power cord might be the culprit. I ordered the necessary cables today and will report back once I’ve had a chance to set up and listen to the dac loop.

Got it. And thanks for that explanation!
 

So from my experience….I’ve had interconnects that caused fatigue. I’ve had power cords that caused fatigue as well. 
So in your case the root cause is the DAC or the cables that connect the dac to hegel or the power cord on the dac. Easy to troubleshoot. You’re on the right track and if you continue going thru this methodically you will nail the source. I’m curious what it is. Keep us posted

@audphile1 

Sorry. Let's start from the beginning.

1) I like the sound of the Aqua but experience listening fatigue when the Jay's, Aqua and rca ICs are all in the signal chain.  

2) When the Jay's is directly feeding the Hegel's internal dac (no ICs required) the fatigue completely vanishes. 

This result makes me wonder:

a) Is the fatigue due to the Aqua or the ICs?

b) Could utilizing the Hegel's internal clock 1) eliminate the jitter while 2) allowing me to still enjoy the fuller tonality of the Aqua dac? 

My aim is to determine the source of fatigue and eliminate or otherwise defeat it. 

Interesting. So you are planning on feeding a digital signal to Hegel then Hegel digital out to Aqua and XLR from Aqua to Hegel XLR in?

If I am not mistaking, the clock in Jays CDT2MkIII is supposed to be insanely good. The digital signal that comes out of that transport is as good as you can get for the money. You’re passing that to Hegel for its most likely subpar clock to pass it over to Aqua. I’m probably misunderstanding this but I’m struggling with the objective of this test. What problem are you trying to solve? What noise is there with Aqua??

If you don’t like the sound of Aqua, nothing will change it.