Hegel H390 DAC

@curiousjim

Anders, the marketing guy for Hegel has asserted the H590 and 390 have the same DAC module but that the H590 has better isolation.

RE: H600, all I’ve seen/heard so far is this Jay’s Iyagi review:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xk13XzfWSZ0

Don’t know reliable his opinion is but he characterizes the H600 as warmer than the H590 and less warm than the H390, for whatever that’s worth.

My experience comparing the Hegel’s DAC to the Aqua has compelled me to question my long-standing conviction that I inherently prefer warm gear. I guess if I lived somewhere close to high end audio stores I would be able to do more listening and less reading !

@curiousjim 

Re: Anders, that's disappointing to hear.

Out of curiosity, did you ever get an answer to the bias question?

What DACs did you consider before choosing the Pontus and what do you like about the Pontus, especially?

@jjss49

I was hoping you’d post here. Thanks.

I used digital bnc from Jay’s cdt2mklll to Aqua and rca"s from Aqua to Hegel.

I used same bnc from Jay’s directly into Hegel.

Sorry, but are you suggesting using DAC loop would equate to "equal footing" or the opposite? I did not use DAC loop, in any event, as I have only one digital cable and loop would require two.

This comparison really surprised me. The results were not at all what I expected. With the Aqua, I experience fatigue and sibilance. These disappear when Hegel’s DAC is utilized. I tried the Hegel’s DAC as an experiment to see whether these unwanted factors were traceable to the Aqua.

It’s a shorter path using the Hegel’s DAC. Could that be a factor?

Hi @soix

Thanks for the suggestions.

I neglected to mention in my OP that I was hoping to go with something US or Euro made and furthermore, one that I can return if necessary. My speakers are US made. My Jay’s and Hegel are both made in China and I wanted to equalize things a bit (admittedly for no profound reason) with the DAC.

However, I’d still be very interested in any DAC recommendations you might have within these parameters.

I’d always assumed any DAC I’d own would be r2r/NOS but this latest experience has thrown me for a loop. Not sure what to make of it, yet.

@mm1tt77

Yes, the same thing ocurred to me (noise). I tried A PSA power regenerator/conditioner in the past and noticed no effect but it’s possible the power is dirtier, now.

And the PS Audio is a dac I’d like to try. Thanks for you comments.

@markmuse

Good to know ! Thanks.

@rick_n

Thanks for the description of respective sonic presentations. The H390 is entirely sufficient as an integrated for my needs and the 600 is beyond my financial reach but I wonder whether Hegel has any plans to release a standalone DAC utilizing the same approach used in the 600.

Do you have an opinion regarding whether using an external DAC in the Hegel’s DAC Loop would circumvent noise that would be present without using the DAC Loop? This would be very useful to know.

Before checking out other dacs, I’m going to try the Aqua inserted into the Hegel’s dac loop. My hope is that the Hegel’s clocking and anti- jitter capacities will ensure the smoothness I’m currently enjoying with its onboard dac will remain but applied to the Aqua’s less lean presentation.

@jjss49

Yes, sir -- only CDs for me!

Thanks for your generosity in taking the time to look into the Aqua's topology, for the tips on cabling and last but not least, your kind offer re: cable loan.

(FYI, the DAC Loop requires two bnc cables and one XLR -- no rca’s).

In order to minimize variables, I plan to order a duplicate of the Audio Art Statement digital cable that’s currently running from the Jay’s to the Hegel and a pair of the Statement XLRs. I can return them if this experiment fails to yield good results.

I will report back once I’ve gotten everything hooked up and listened. I’m hopeful this will solve the fatigue and sibilance issues. If it does not, then borrowing some other cables could reveal whether my current cabling is problematic.

@audphile1 

Thanks for your Kimber suggestion. 

The Hegel's DAC loop requires two digital bnc cables and one XLR. I must use XLR for it to work. 

@audphile1

Thanks for your comments. Please note that La Voce is SS, not tube. Only La Scala is tube in the Aqua line up.

All cabling is Audio Art Statement. @jjss49 has offered to lend me some other cables. I prefer to start the experiment with only one brand of cable in the system and not introduce another variable but may take him up on his offer. We’ll see.

It is never bad advice to spend sufficient time listening before making any decision. Having said that, my conception of musicality demands generously-voiced mids. Absent this, I’m simply not fully engaged. Although the Aqua is far from perfect, it is not lean.

I now believe that what I’m mostly enjoying from listening with the Hagel DAC is less due to its inherent sonic character than an absence of fatigue others have suggested is due to noise/jitter.

@audphile1 

about staying with one brand of cable…it’s totally up to you but it isn’t necessarily always the best approach

I don't disagree as a general approach but for my current "forensic" purposes , I'd prefer to stick with just one brand and one "house sound."

@audphile1

I’m trying to be systematic.

I didn’t mention that I retrieved my old Jolida tube cdp out of a closet and tried it as both a transport and cdp into the Hegel. In these scenarios, the sound was worse, rather than better.

I will report back once I’ve put in some listening time with the dac loop.

@audphile1

I didn’t expect the Jolida to beat the Aqua in terms of SQ. That would be absurd. Attempting to isolate the noise source was the rationale for trying the Jolida.

Next step : trying Aqua and Jay’s in Hegel’s dac loop.

If that doesn’t work, I will have to try a different dac and a different transport, in order to rule out one or both. Or, try a power conditioner.

I hope the dac loop works. It would be much simpler.

@eugene81 

Thanks for your suggestion.

@audphile1 

Sorry. Let's start from the beginning.

1) I like the sound of the Aqua but experience listening fatigue when the Jay's, Aqua and rca ICs are all in the signal chain.  

2) When the Jay's is directly feeding the Hegel's internal dac (no ICs required) the fatigue completely vanishes. 

This result makes me wonder:

a) Is the fatigue due to the Aqua or the ICs?

b) Could utilizing the Hegel's internal clock 1) eliminate the jitter while 2) allowing me to still enjoy the fuller tonality of the Aqua dac? 

My aim is to determine the source of fatigue and eliminate or otherwise defeat it. 

@audphile1

Thanks for confirming my strategy makes sense and for pointing out the possibility that the dac’s power cord might be the culprit. I ordered the necessary cables today and will report back once I’ve had a chance to set up and listen to the dac loop.

Update:

Cables needed for dac loop arrived today.

Tonality with Aqua back in system in dac loop mode is no longer lean.

The good news : noise is still absent. The bad news: sibilance has returned.

I will try different xlrs to see whether the current ones or the Aqua might be the source of the sibilance.

@audphile1

A fellow forum member has volunteered to lend me some DH Labs.

I’m not concerned about the digital cables. It’s the XLR ICs that I want to swap out.

I can return the newly acquired Audio Art XLRs if necessary.

I’ve researched the topic of dealing with sibilance and encountered quite a  variation of opinion:

1) It’s in the recordings.

2) it’s an AC issue

3) it’s a vibration issue

4) it can be dealt with via speaker positioning (I haven’t found this to be true, so far)

5) it has to do with the DAC.

Substituting my old Jolida CDP for the Jay’s (both as a transport and a CDP) failed to improve the sibilance issue, so it would seem the Jay’s is not to blame. I find sibilance extremely annoying. I don’t really want to give up listening to certain female vocalists but I may have to, until I can afford to put serious $ into the system.

@steakster ​​

Excellent detective work. I hope you find the culprit.

Your home is stunning.

I hope so, too, and thanks.

@grislybutter

both the rooms and the furniture are just gorgeous. A rare delight amongst all the sterile, "dedicated" listening "labs" :)

Thanks. If I had the option of a dedicated room, I would definitely take advantage of it but I don’t, so I have to work with what I have.

BTW, I was looking through the virtual systems a few days ago and found another guy who, like me, favors the Craftsman style and has used it very tastefully in his listening room. While they comprise a minority, there are those, if you look, who pay as much attention to the room’s esthetics as the sound.

@audphile1

Darn -- forgot about the power cords. Thanks for the reminder!

I never had sibilance until I acquired the Jay's and the Hegel. 

@audphile1

I paid for 72 hour burn-in on the new cables -- I’ve been buying Rob’s cables for over 15 years and have always paid for burn in and have never found them to change much.

Another variable is the fact that the analogue out from DAC to Hegel is now via balanced XLR connection. The wire is the same as the RCA s I use but the termination is different -- rhodium. There is more weight/lower mids now, with this cable, which I actually like. This was something I always felt was missing before and which I attempted to bolster with the Schiit Lokius.

To be honest, I’m not clear re: the distinction between using balanced connections and using balanced connections between components with balanced topologies.

The Aqua site describes the La Voce S2 DAC’s XLR output as "asymmetrical".

Not sure about the Hegel -- one reviewer describes it as "true balanced" but I didn’t see this in the description on Hegel’s website.

If you were asking whether components are broken in, yes -- definitely

Just looked at your virtual system. Impressive! Another forum member suggested I swap out the Hegel for Pass.  

@audphile1 

Thanks for researching that.  That's quite a bit more burn-in. the Jay's remote has a repeat function. Unfortunately, last week I had to send mine to Tek Audio in Texas for repairs. While the Hegel remote will work for some functions on Jay's, repeat is not one of them. So this means I can only listen while I'm awake. Will do what I can. I appreciate your ongoing advice !

@audphile1

Yes; I have an old DVD player.

I'm sorry but I don't follow your meaning. 

Could you please describe the signal chain you're suggesting, incorporating the dvd player ? 

@audphile1 

I found a pair of Cullen xlr's I'd forgotten I had. Using  them in the dac loop, sibilance was just as pronounced as with the new A. Art cables, which suggests to me it's not a cable issue.

@audphile1

1) Jay’s: It has many hours on it, as I bought it a year ago.

@bigtwin has described it as "somewhat forward" compared to other transports he’s heard. I actually did contact Alvin at one point re: brightness/sibilance and he recommended some inexpensive (Mogami, perhaps?) IC’s. I didn’t find they helped and the overall SQ was severely compromised by those cables.

2) Sibilance:

a) With Jay’s -> Aqua -> Hegel, sibilance was mostly confined to female vocals -- soprano range being noticeably worse than alto range.

b) With Jay’s -> Hegel, sibilance was lessened. At first, I thought it was gone, but further listening has revealed it remains to some degree. Fatigue, on the other hand, was much less evident.

c) With DAC loop, sibilance became more exaggerated, with longer "trails" and not only S sounds affected. Furthermore, male vocals were also affected. This is the worst it’s ever been. In other words, whenever Aqua is in signal chain, sibilance is worse.

FYI, I searched Forum threads for "sibilance + DACs" and came across numerous references to guys modding their DACs to get rid of sibilance.

3)

RE: DIgital cables: I just looked at the description on A. Art site and it says: "Audio Art’s new Statement Digital employs a Single Crystal (OCC) silver conductor".

This might be another issue. 

@steakster 

Yes; everything you suggest could prove worthwhile. 

Many years ago, Dave brought over a PS Audio power regenerator and we heard no difference with the system plugged into it but that system was much less resolving than my current gear. We live in a rural area of large parcels, with a separate transformer assigned to each property. There is a sub-station about a mile away and something could've changed over the years at that end. I'll admit to knowing nothing about power. 

Thanks for your kind encouragement. 

@yage

This does indeed seem like an incompatibility and yet I have no other choice; utilizing the Hegel’s DAC Loop function requires connecting the DAC’s xlr analog output to the Hegel’s xlr analog input. I’ve been instructed it will not work any other way. I’m not wedded to the DAC loop --just explaining why I did what I did.

@bigtwin

My apologies. I’ve clearly confused you with someone else. At 67, my memory is not getting better! ;o)

@audphile1

Yes, I’ve reached the same conclusion -- it’s most likely a synergy issue -- but perhaps not exactly how you describe it.

Consider that, when I had Simaudio transport - > Aqua -> Hegel, there was no sibilance or fatigue.

It wasn’t until I replaced the Simaudio with the Jay’s that problems started.

I could try another DAC or another transport and see what happens.

Thanks for hanging with me through all of this -- it’s much appreciated!

@steakster

In Sacramento area. I know there's a fairly active forum member who lives in Folsom, but unfortunately,I don’t remember who it is. There is a local audio club -- I just haven’t been active in it but am good friends with one of the members who used to be a dealer. Good idea!

@steakster 

As it so happens, I read much of that thread but was quite confused by the contradictory opinions. 

I have my gear mounted in a heavy built-in bookshelf unit that is deep enough for a relatively large component such as the H390, but does not have much room behind it to locate a power conditioning unit. I could ask if anyone in the audio club has something I could borrow. 

@steakster 

Thanks for the useful clarification and link

@steakster 

From your virtual system comments:

Cables: too close together - and/or - in parallel - and/or - even crossing at 90 degrees.  e.g: This includes: power & signal, shielded & non-shielded, single-ended & balanced.

Definitely the case with my system --- I don't have much room behind components. 

Will see what I can do, though. 

@audphile1 ​​@steakster

Thanks for your perspectives on cable organization.

@steakster

I don’t believe I’ve ever encountered "rat’s nest" and "cake" in the same sentence before! ;o)

As some one who loves to write, I admire your word choices.

Yesterday I reached out to a friend who heads up the local audio club. Hopefully I  can borrow some gear and hone in on the cause of the problems.

As I don’t know how long it might take to borrow something from the audio club, my plan is to order a Puritan PS 106-DC (the best Puritan unit I can afford, currently) and return it if it proves ineffective.

@audphile1

I had the PSM-156 and sold it. You can definitely try the Puritan. I highly doubt it’s your problem though. If you’re determined to make it work I would think that both the transport and the dac have to be looked at as a pairing or individually, given the fact that the Simaudio transport didn’t exhibit this sonic trait you’re trying to remediate.

I just thought the Puritan could be a useful experiment to determine whether a power issue might be playing a role in the equation but if you believe it makes more sense to swap out the transport and DAC first, I’ll try to borrow some gear and do that. I feel like I’m in over my head, here. In the meantime, I've gone back to running the Jay's into the Hegel's DAC, because it's both less sibilant and more relaxing than either of the other scenarios I've tried.  

@audphile1

It’s odd that the Simaudio transport with your Aqua DAC didn’t have the sibilance as pronounced as your Jays transport.

Yes. This initially led me to assume the Jay’s was the problem but, in fact, when running it directly into the Hegel, there is less sibilance and a markedly more relaxed presentation, overall, than when the Aqua is in the signal chain.

I can live with this set-up, no problem. I’m wondering if perhaps a tube dac might be a better match. Linear Tube Audio is coming out with one of their own design early in the year. I prefer to buy products I can demo at home and return if necessary and LTA offers a 14 day return policy. The fact that it has only two tubes is a big plus in my opinion. I swore I’d never use tube gear again (audio or guitar) due to the mantainence factor but I could change my mind.

As for power, I live in a rural area of large parcels (we have one of the smaller ones at 25 acres). Each parcel has its own transformer. Pretty far from the scenario you describe! And, Hegel does not favor use of power conditioners for their integrateds.