Your home is stunning
both the rooms and the furniture are just gorgeous. A rare delight amongst all the sterile, "dedicated" listening "labs" :)
Hegel H390 DAC
I hesitate to add yet another DAC related thread but I haven't seen this particular question asked before, so....
After owing an H390 for a year, I just got around to listening to it's onboard DAC. What? Huh? Why? I was biased -- convinced I wouldn't like because it wasn't described by reviewers as overtly"warm", like my Aqua La Voce S2.
As someone who always advocates making buying decisions based on listening, I feel quite sheepish making this confession but as this is an audio forum, not group therapy, I'll move on to the main point.
I was shocked to discover I actually prefer the Hegel's DAC to the Aqua. In my system, in my room, it is more transparent, smoother and more effortless. And, to my surprise, it conveys more emotion.
The only downside is that the Hegel's DAC is somewhat leaner in the mids than I'd prefer.
Question: which outboard DACs have a similar but more fleshed-out sonic profile under 7K, new?
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@steakster
I hope so, too, and thanks.
Thanks. If I had the option of a dedicated room, I would definitely take advantage of it but I don’t, so I have to work with what I have. BTW, I was looking through the virtual systems a few days ago and found another guy who, like me, favors the Craftsman style and has used it very tastefully in his listening room. While they comprise a minority, there are those, if you look, who pay as much attention to the room’s esthetics as the sound.
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@stuartk yes, luckily there are some fine examples. Personally, I think audio companies should post pictures of their gear in "real" living rooms to appeal to a wider audience. |
I paid for 72 hour burn-in on the new cables -- I’ve been buying Rob’s cables for over 15 years and have always paid for burn in and have never found them to change much. Another variable is the fact that the analogue out from DAC to Hegel is now via balanced XLR connection. The wire is the same as the RCA s I use but the termination is different -- rhodium. There is more weight/lower mids now, with this cable, which I actually like. This was something I always felt was missing before and which I attempted to bolster with the Schiit Lokius. To be honest, I’m not clear re: the distinction between using balanced connections and using balanced connections between components with balanced topologies. The Aqua site describes the La Voce S2 DAC’s XLR output as "asymmetrical". Not sure about the Hegel -- one reviewer describes it as "true balanced" but I didn’t see this in the description on Hegel’s website. If you were asking whether components are broken in, yes -- definitely Just looked at your virtual system. Impressive! Another forum member suggested I swap out the Hegel for Pass. |
Thanks! I wouldn’t rush to swap for pass. Hegel is good. Different but good.
what you’re hearing is due to higher output via XLR outs of your dac and that gives your lower noise and the more weight you’re hearing in the presentation is your dac driving the amp better. I always use XLR where possible. |
Thanks for researching that. That's quite a bit more burn-in. the Jay's remote has a repeat function. Unfortunately, last week I had to send mine to Tek Audio in Texas for repairs. While the Hegel remote will work for some functions on Jay's, repeat is not one of them. So this means I can only listen while I'm awake. Will do what I can. I appreciate your ongoing advice !
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If the transport is the root cause of the sibilance, you have to try a few things. 2. try different digital cables. Doesn’t have to be expensive but must be either 75ohm coax or 110ohm AES. Using regular balanced or rca cable can cause sonic degradation. The impedance of the cable is critical. If the sibilance is just as nasty with the DVD player as transport into the Aqua but there’s no sibilance with hegel inbuilt dac, your dac is the issue. Let us know. |
I ran across this little tidbit using Google (link)
The Aqua La Voce S2 specs note ’asymmetric’ XLR output. That seems to imply that it is not a balanced output but a voltage doubled single ended output using an XLR connection. So probably not an ideal situation for the amp’s balanced inputs from Hegel’s point of view. Here's an article explaining the difference between balanced and unbalanced connections - link. |
1) Jay’s: It has many hours on it, as I bought it a year ago. @bigtwin has described it as "somewhat forward" compared to other transports he’s heard. I actually did contact Alvin at one point re: brightness/sibilance and he recommended some inexpensive (Mogami, perhaps?) IC’s. I didn’t find they helped and the overall SQ was severely compromised by those cables. 2) Sibilance: a) With Jay’s -> Aqua -> Hegel, sibilance was mostly confined to female vocals -- soprano range being noticeably worse than alto range. b) With Jay’s -> Hegel, sibilance was lessened. At first, I thought it was gone, but further listening has revealed it remains to some degree. Fatigue, on the other hand, was much less evident. c) With DAC loop, sibilance became more exaggerated, with longer "trails" and not only S sounds affected. Furthermore, male vocals were also affected. This is the worst it’s ever been. In other words, whenever Aqua is in signal chain, sibilance is worse. FYI, I searched Forum threads for "sibilance + DACs" and came across numerous references to guys modding their DACs to get rid of sibilance. 3) RE: DIgital cables: I just looked at the description on A. Art site and it says: "Audio Art’s new Statement Digital employs a Single Crystal (OCC) silver conductor". This might be another issue.
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@stuartk so you’ve pretty much narrowed it down to DAC. I wouldn’t worry about silver in digital cable. It won’t impact the sound the same way the silver in analog cables would. At this point no amount of vibration control, tweaks or cables will fix this issue. At best it would provide a temporary bandaid. Probably time to try a new DAC or a new amp. Room dampening might help as well if you can add some. |
@stuartk I think you have me mixed up with some other contributor. Those aren't my words. I had to google "sibilant" to get the meaning. 😆 I have never experienced the effect in my system so can't speak to it. Luckily the only thing that gives me fatigue is getting up too early in the morning. Cheers. |
This does indeed seem like an incompatibility and yet I have no other choice; utilizing the Hegel’s DAC Loop function requires connecting the DAC’s xlr analog output to the Hegel’s xlr analog input. I’ve been instructed it will not work any other way. I’m not wedded to the DAC loop --just explaining why I did what I did. My apologies. I’ve clearly confused you with someone else. At 67, my memory is not getting better! ;o) Yes, I’ve reached the same conclusion -- it’s most likely a synergy issue -- but perhaps not exactly how you describe it. Consider that, when I had Simaudio transport - > Aqua -> Hegel, there was no sibilance or fatigue. It wasn’t until I replaced the Simaudio with the Jay’s that problems started. I could try another DAC or another transport and see what happens. Thanks for hanging with me through all of this -- it’s much appreciated! In Sacramento area. I know there's a fairly active forum member who lives in Folsom, but unfortunately,I don’t remember who it is. There is a local audio club -- I just haven’t been active in it but am good friends with one of the members who used to be a dealer. Good idea!
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Yes; everything you suggest could prove worthwhile. Many years ago, Dave brought over a PS Audio power regenerator and we heard no difference with the system plugged into it but that system was much less resolving than my current gear. We live in a rural area of large parcels, with a separate transformer assigned to each property. There is a sub-station about a mile away and something could've changed over the years at that end. I'll admit to knowing nothing about power. Thanks for your kind encouragement.
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As it so happens, I read much of that thread but was quite confused by the contradictory opinions. I have my gear mounted in a heavy built-in bookshelf unit that is deep enough for a relatively large component such as the H390, but does not have much room behind it to locate a power conditioning unit. I could ask if anyone in the audio club has something I could borrow.
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From your virtual system comments:
Definitely the case with my system --- I don't have much room behind components. Will see what I can do, though.
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I never heard any difference in my system that was influenced by how close to each other the cables are or their geometric orientation in relation to each other. Never have I heard even a slightest difference in sound between a speaker cable that was coiled or stretched out. |
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Thanks for your perspectives on cable organization. I don’t believe I’ve ever encountered "rat’s nest" and "cake" in the same sentence before! ;o) As some one who loves to write, I admire your word choices. Yesterday I reached out to a friend who heads up the local audio club. Hopefully I can borrow some gear and hone in on the cause of the problems.
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@stuartk I had the PSM-156 and sold it. You can definitely try the Puritan. I highly doubt it’s your problem though. If you’re determined to make it work I would think that both the transport and the dac have to be looked at as a pairing or individually, given the fact that the Simaudio transport didn’t exhibit this sonic trait you’re trying to remediate. |
I just thought the Puritan could be a useful experiment to determine whether a power issue might be playing a role in the equation but if you believe it makes more sense to swap out the transport and DAC first, I’ll try to borrow some gear and do that. I feel like I’m in over my head, here. In the meantime, I've gone back to running the Jay's into the Hegel's DAC, because it's both less sibilant and more relaxing than either of the other scenarios I've tried. |
@stuartk that’s cool. Just enjoy the music and take your time in solving this puzzle. When you borrow a dac and a transport you will most likely figure out where the root cause is. It’s odd that the Simaudio transport with your Aqua DAC didn’t have the sibilance as pronounced as your Jays transport. As to power conditioning…looking at the power supplies in the Aqua and Jays… unless you live in an apartment building in the city something like that lower end puritan is a waste of space and money. It may actually introduce other nuisance like power cord upgrades for it, restricted dynamics, etc.
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Yes. This initially led me to assume the Jay’s was the problem but, in fact, when running it directly into the Hegel, there is less sibilance and a markedly more relaxed presentation, overall, than when the Aqua is in the signal chain. I can live with this set-up, no problem. I’m wondering if perhaps a tube dac might be a better match. Linear Tube Audio is coming out with one of their own design early in the year. I prefer to buy products I can demo at home and return if necessary and LTA offers a 14 day return policy. The fact that it has only two tubes is a big plus in my opinion. I swore I’d never use tube gear again (audio or guitar) due to the mantainence factor but I could change my mind. As for power, I live in a rural area of large parcels (we have one of the smaller ones at 25 acres). Each parcel has its own transformer. Pretty far from the scenario you describe! And, Hegel does not favor use of power conditioners for their integrateds.
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